Invitation to Derek Johnson to discuss his ideas

[carlitos]

Derek?

Where are you Derek?

Are you going to address Tom's or anyone else's points?

These things need to be addressed if you are going to continue speaking as a truther....

Where have all our truthers gone? Bill Smith has been gone for a month...Jamonious is AWOL...everyone else has been banned. Where will our stundies come from?

I'm right here, how can I be of service?

Derek Johnson
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Last Activity: 5th May 2010 04:27 AM

 

[Edx]

I'm telling you its a stupid irrelevant point in the first place!
Like I said there were reports of flowing molten metal and red hot metal in WTC6 as well. So what relevance could this molten metal have?

I do not immediately accept things that are told to me, I prefer to come to my own conclusions. If you think I'll cease my line of questioning based upon your opening statement, you might want to reconsider.

I didn't just tell you to accept my position that it was a stupid irrelevant line of argument. I gave you many reasons for it. You have ignored all of them for the second time.

The relevance of molten metal/steel is that it could possibly be evidence of additional incendiary used in addition to the plane crashes to collapse the towers.

No, it cant possibly be that at all since as I said the evidence for molten metal at WTC1,2 and 7 is also there for Building 6. So to think there was an "incendiary" used to demolish 1, 2 and 7 you also have to believe they demolished Building 6 as well. Are you prepared to believe that?

Secondly, it has not been shown any form of thermite is even capable of providing what truthers claim existed at ground zero. IE. tons of molten steel for months. It wouldnt even be able to do that for weeks. And people like Steven Jones cant make up his mind how they used it. In one place he says it was painted onto steel and that when it dries becomes a high explosive, and another time he says the stuff was acting as "matches" for traditional explosives such as C4.

The reasons the molten metal in the basements claims started is because groups like AE911 claimed this picture of a column cut was evidence that they used thermite to cut the columns at the base of the buildings. This of course was just a thermal lance cut and they seem to have steered away from using this picture for a long time I would guess because of that reason, but the point is this claim is now so confused and self contradictory you really have even less reason to make it anymore.

As I said, if you gave me some good reason why I should consider this I would. But in the absence of anything I'm going to go with the most likely explanations.

And just so you know, there's nothing wrong with asking questions just not when you don't really care about the answers or when you find any reason to be as obtuse as possible regarding it because you just want to shoehorn your conspiracy theory into reality no matter what - because that is what it sounds like.

Ed

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Your opinion is thermodynamically unsupportable. We know that there were elements in the towers, immediately prior to the collapse, at temperatures sufficiently high to initiate combustion of hydrocarbon fuel in the presence of sufficient air, in fact very much higher. Many of these elements had very large thermal masses. Even if the flames were extinguished during the collapse itself, these elements could not possibly have lost sufficient heat in the 15 seconds or so that they were falling for their temperatures to drop below the point of ignition. Therefore, once in the rubble pile, they would have re-ignited the fires even if they had been extinguished. Once re-ignited, of course, the rubble pile fires were a heat source, and would easily have spread.

I can certainly accept this explanation; plausible method for the fires to transfer and spread within the rubble pile. May I please ask you to clarify what you mean by many of the elements(which I assume to mean structural elements) had large thermal masses? I don't understand this term, but I'm no thermodynamicologist.

 

[ImANiceGuy]

And just so you know, there's nothing wrong with asking questions just not when you don't really care about the answers or when you find any reason to be as obtuse as possible regarding it because you just want to shoehorn your conspiracy theory into reality no matter what - because that is how I interpret your posts

Ed

Fixed it for ya.

 

[Oystein]

I can certainly accept this explanation; plausible method for the fires to transfer and spread within the rubble pile. May I please ask you to clarify what you mean by many of the elements(which I assume to mean structural elements) had large thermal masses? I don't understand this term, but I'm no thermodynamicologist.

For the layman: Many things that get red hot in an office fire will still be red hot 15 seconds later even if temporarily removed from a flame.

However, the idea that all fires would immediately stop because the building collapses is ridiculous to start with.

 

[Oystein]

I didn't just tell you to accept my position that it was a stupid irrelevant line of argument. I gave you many reasons for it. You have ignored all of them for the second time.
...Ed

Fixed it for ya.

And now you have ignored Edx' many reasons for the third time, which shows you are indeed not interested in reason at all. Therefore, you should not have fixed his concluding remark - it was spot-on.

 

[Edx]

Fixed it for ya.

Congratulations, you just proved you are not really here for honest debate. And you wonder why people here are so hostile with truther's?

What you're doing here is precisely why "Just Asking Questions" is looked down upon, because you aren't really JUST asking questions.

 

[triforcharity]

In my opinion, the fires in the towers should have been extinguished during the collapse. They would not spread throughout the rubble in oven-like scenarios.

The fires, although sufficient to cause local structural failures(is this an acceptable description?), were not Madrid Tower-esque infernos. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the extended heat present in GZ.

ImANiceGuy,

That you for expression your opinion. At least you state it as an opinion and not as fact. I give you some respect for that.

Now, one of the reasons the fires did not go out during the collapse, is because they were HUGE to begin with. Fire over 5 floors, an acre in size each floor.

Now, why should they have been blown out? Im not being a jerk, I just want to understand why you have that opinion.

The other problem FDNY had was the fires that were still in the piles, were very difficult to get to.

In fact, someone invented a tool for firefighters to use in the event of this type of collapse and fire.

http://firechief.com/mag/firefighting_waterjet_technology_cuts/

Now, as far as the Madrid fire. Madrid had a concrete core. Madrid also had the steel part of the structure collapse.
http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/pr...Study/HistoricFires/BuildingFires/default.htm

You cannot compare the two.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

I can certainly accept this explanation; plausible method for the fires to transfer and spread within the rubble pile. May I please ask you to clarify what you mean by many of the elements(which I assume to mean structural elements) had large thermal masses? I don't understand this term, but I'm no thermodynamicologist.

Materials store and conduct heat to different degrees. A red hot thick steel beam could be sprayed with water or (dropped from 800 feet) and remain hot enough to still ignite a flammable material next to it. Once the pile is on fire the heat it gives off simple boils away the water poured on it even before it reaches the actual fire. You should have covered this in high school physics.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I can certainly accept this explanation; plausible method for the fires to transfer and spread within the rubble pile. May I please ask you to clarify what you mean by many of the elements(which I assume to mean structural elements) had large thermal masses? I don't understand this term, but I'm no thermodynamicologist.

There's a good description on Wikipedia. Thermal mass is a useful concept for working out how much heat an object can store. The heat capacity of a substance is defined as the amount of heat needed to raise the temperature of a given mass by a given amount. Multiplying the mass of the element by the heat capacity gives a quantity called the thermal mass. The higher the thermal mass of an object, the more heat is stored in it at a given temperature, and hence the more heat it needs to lose to cool down. The heat capacity of steel is actually quite low - it's a little over a tenth that of water, for example - but the masses of the structural elements were very large, giving a high thermal mass.

Dave

 

[Bell]

^^ Putting the E in JREF

 

[Toke]

For the layman: Many things that get red hot in an office fire will still be red hot 15 seconds later even if temporarily removed from a flame.

However, the idea that all fires would immediately stop because the building collapses is ridiculous to start with.

Come on, a cigarete butt is red hot and goes out when stepped on.
How far is it from there to assuming the same holds true for steel etc. when a building collapes on it?

 

[TruthersLie]

Toke.

I know you are playing truther here... but for that you deserve this.

 

[Toke]

Thank you.

There is no need to go overboard with scaling issues, like surface to volume/mass ratio and such stuff. (but if could be one of the many things truthers fail at understanding)

 

[Telltale Tom]

In my opinion, the fires in the towers should have been extinguished during the collapse. They would not spread throughout the rubble in oven-like scenarios.

It looks like you need some help Derek to get out of this mess.

There was 20-30kg/sqm of combustible material in the buildings. That's about 30,000 tons of combustible material in the pile.

The pile was covered in a thick dust layer and the fireman sprayed it with water essentially creating an oven, with superheated temperatures inside. Then they kept pulling out bits of steel that gave off sparks as it rubbed against other bits of steel.

So perhaps it was the NYFD that kept the flames going in order to destroy the evidence. Or perhaps thats just what happens when you light 30,000 tons of combustible material in a big pile that is areated with 1,000's of large bits of steel and covered with a thick coating of insulating dust.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

There was 20-30kg/sqm of combustible material in the buildings. That's about 30,000 tons of combustible material in the pile.

To expand on this: Some more information regarding the combustibles in the rubble piles can be found in the UC Davis "Delta" Group studies. That information is available here:

http://delta.ucdavis.edu/WTC.htm

 

[triforcharity]

To expand on this: Some more information regarding the combustibles in the rubble piles can be found in the UC Davis "Delta" Group studies. That information is available here:

http://delta.ucdavis.edu/WTC.htm

Excellent study. I have read this before, and it is very informational.

 

[ProBonoShill]

Hi Derek,

I have two questions:

1) Why do you continually ignore Oystein's request to name the metals in the pictures he provided?

2) You use the term "molten steel" throughout this thread, yet in your presentation nearing the end of part three and the beginning of part four you discuss "molten metal".

You list temperatures as proof of molten metal and your heading says "MOLTEN METAL"

Are we to believe you don't understand the difference between these two terms?

 

[dafydd]

ISo perhaps it was the NYFD that kept the flames going in order to destroy the evidence.

That is a contemptible remark.I would love to be there if you ever say that face to face with some New York firemen.You are just urinating on the memory of the victims,what a sad,pathetic person you are.

 

[Oystein]

That is a contemptible remark.I would love to be there if you ever say that face to face with some New York firemen.You are just urinating on the memory of the victims,what a sad,pathetic person you are.

Relax! TelltaleTom is doing satire, and he is doing it real well! Lighten up, read more carefully, and enjoy a really good laugh once you get his drift