Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[Michael Mozina]

And none of that is relevant to the topic of this thread, which is the sun. This is just a desperate attempt by you to change the topic, since your solar "model" is failing so spectacularly.

Actually your "dark energy" could be directly related. It's only claim to fame seems to be the properly of "acceleration". You can't explain that "acceleration" of solar wind in the SSM. How do you know that one "acceleration' is related to "dark energy" and one is not? Is that because you *MADE UP* the idea that DE doesn't interact with gravitationally bound systems perhaps?

DE and this topic are in fact physically related. You can't explain *ANY* form of acceleration because you refuse to accept the one logical alternative.

 

[ben m]

Meanwhile, optical spectroscopy of the Sun---the type of spectroscopy which is actually sensitive to low ionization states---sees lots of Fe I, Fe II, Ca I, Ca II, O2, OH, H2O, CO2. Exactly the sorts of ionization states you expect to see in a 6000K plasma with no weirdness. (a list is ftp://ftp.noao.edu/fts/linelist/Moore)

Why is there so much Ca II on the Sun, Michael? Surely your magic "ionize 99.9999% of everything to +4 or more" beams would be hitting this also? But they're not, because there is no such beam.

Let me add, in case it's not obvious: this is the third or fourth time I've brought up these non-Mozplasma-compatible species. MM ignored it all previous times. I think he's not actually very interested in Mozplasma---he wants to assume it's right, not think about it too hard, and get back to looking at pictures of "mountains".

The chemicals are a nice anti-Mozplasma fact all by themselves, but more importantly they're part and parcel with the "6000K blackbody" thing, the "visible light limb darkening" thing, and the "hydrostatic equilbrium" thing. The photosphere isn't something we casually and vaguely assumed was made of 6000K hydrogen. Rather, the photosphere has all of the properties of 6000K hydrogen. It's got the right blackbody spectrum and intensity, the right absorption lines from the right ionization states of the right atoms and molecules; it's got the right limb darkening from the right vertical temperature profile obeying the right hydrostatic/radiative/convective behavior given the Sun's gravity. Every level of detail that you ask for from the photosphere, the answer is always "it looks like a normal 6000K mostly-hydrogen plasma."

 

[Hellbound]

Somehow, I'm reminded of something...

ARTHUR: You fight with the strength of many men, Sir knight.
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
[pause]
I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me
in my Court of Camelot.
[pause]
You have proved yourself worthy; will you join me?
[pause]
You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT: None shall pass.
ARTHUR: What?
BLACK KNIGHT: None shall pass.
ARTHUR: I have no quarrel with you, good Sir knight, but I must
cross this bridge.
BLACK KNIGHT: Then you shall die.
ARTHUR: I command you as King of the Britons to stand aside!
BLACK KNIGHT: I move for no man.
ARTHUR: So be it!
[hah]
[parry thrust]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: Well, what's that then?
BLACK KNIGHT: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on you pansy!
[hah]
[parry thrust]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]
ARTHUR: Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank thee Lord, that in thy merc-
[hah]
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on then.
ARTHUR: What?
BLACK KNIGHT: Have at you!
ARTHUR: You are indeed brave, Sir knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR: Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT: Yes I have.
ARTHUR: Look!
BLACK KNIGHT: Just a flesh wound.
[bang]
ARTHUR: Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT: Chicken! Chicken!
ARTHUR: Look, I'll have your leg. Right!
[whop]
BLACK KNIGHT: Right, I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR: You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT: Come 'ere!
ARTHUR: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT: I'm invincible!
ARTHUR: You're a loony.
BLACK KNIGHT: The Black Knight always triumphs!
Have at you! Come on then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's other leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT: All right; we'll call it a draw.
ARTHUR: Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow
bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you.
I'll bite your legs off!

 

[Michael Mozina]

Let me add, in case it's not obvious: this is the third or fourth time I've brought up these non-Mozplasma-compatible species. MM ignored it all previous times. I think he's not actually very interested in Mozplasma---he wants to assume it's right, not think about it too hard, and get back to looking at pictures of "mountains".

Actually, I gave sol all the SSM elemental numbers to play with and assumed a 6000K ion temp. How did I ignore anything?

The chemicals are a nice anti-Mozplasma fact all by themselves, but more importantly they're part and parcel with the "6000K blackbody" thing, the "visible light limb darkening" thing, and the "hydrostatic equilbrium" thing. The photosphere isn't something we casually and vaguely assumed was made of 6000K hydrogen. Rather, the photosphere has all of the properties of 6000K hydrogen.

The sun itself has that property, not necessarily the first 500Km ben. Those million degree coronal loops don't fit that temperature pattern either. You simply "oversimplify" the issue to make it mathematically easier to quantify.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Somehow, I'm reminded of something...

I loved that part! Monty Python rocks. That whole thing reminds me of you guy and your solar wind problem. You can't figure it out, but somehow you've already ruled out the one force of nature that has been shown to deliver the goods in an empirical test of concept.

 

[ben m]

Here is what I don't get about you ben. You see all those various ionization states of neon, oxygen, silicon, etc, at all different temperatures. The temperature of the photosphere is way too cold to produce them, and you ignore the one force of nature that can produce them and does produce those temperature states here on Earth and in the lab.

What am I ignoring? I see a thick 6000K photosphere with all of the species I expect in a 6000K photosphere. You can tell it's thick by the absorption lines; you can tell it's 6000K by the spectrum.

I also see a very thin (you can tell it's thin by the emission lines and the limb brightening) ultrahot plasma called the "corona". It has all of the ionized species, intensities, etc., that you expect of a thin ultrahot plasma. Everyone agrees it's hot up there. (You, Michael, have one crazy idea about how it's heated; everyone disagrees, but that's a different topic.)

What am I ignoring? "current"? (No I'm not, but that's a different topic.) Who cares if there's current? Electric current, even if it were there, could not drive the photosphere far out of equilibrium and still allow it to look like it does.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Um, er, ... and you have used this image to produce bounded estimates of "current flows" where, exactly?

No, I've used that image to demonstrate "rigid features" under the surface of the photosphere. For years you've simply ignored them. Do you think they will simply go away in higher resolution?

I'd work with the solar wind number to attempt to refine any of Birkeland's numbers, not the HMI images. Then again, maybe I need to check that out. Hmm.

 

[ben m]

Actually, I gave sol all the SSM elemental numbers to play with and assumed a 6000K ion temp. How did I ignore anything?

Aha! A 6000K ion temperature, you say? Good, because the photosphere is in ion-electron equilibrium. You can tell because (a) it only takes a microsecond to equilibrate at these densities and (b) the observed ionization distribution of the H, He, Fe, Ca, Mg, CO, CO2, etc., shows that the electron temperature is also 6000K. No surprise, of course. The conditions you just described are not Mozplasma, they're the normal mainstream photosphere.

 

[DeiRenDopa]

Excellent, lets have some references.

I'm going to be a tease, and provide some over many posts; you might say I'll provide a "paper flow" ...

Current Helicity of the Large-Scale Photospheric Magnetic Field

Vector Magnetic Fields and Electric Currents From the Imaging Vector Magnetograph

ILCT: Recovering Photospheric Velocities from Magnetograms by Combining the Induction Equation with Local Correlation Tracking

Vertical Lorentz Force and Cross-Field Currents in the Photospheric Magnetic Fields of Solar Active Regions

Reduction, analysis, and properties of electric current systems in solar active regions

Can We Improve the Preprocessing of Photospheric Vector Magnetograms by the Inclusion of Chromospheric Observations?

 

[ben m]

The sun itself has that property, not necessarily the first 500Km ben. Those million degree coronal loops don't fit that temperature pattern either. You simply "oversimplify" the issue to make it mathematically easier to quantify.

I just described the million-degree coronal loops, Michael. They're an ultrahot, thin plasma that's high above the dense, cool plasma. Read the post again.

The existence of Ca X (or whatever) in coronal loops does not give you license to pretend that there's NOT Ca I and Ca II in the photosphere.

 

[Michael Mozina]

What am I ignoring? I see a thick 6000K photosphere with all of the species I expect in a 6000K photosphere. You can tell it's thick by the absorption lines; you can tell it's 6000K by the spectrum.

You see a whole sun, you see a shiny surface and you see million degree plasma sticking out out it! You *assume* it all relates to one surface (-500km) and coronal loop activity. I do not make that assumption.

I also see a very thin (you can tell it's thin by the emission lines and the limb brightening) ultrahot plasma called the "corona".

That "hot corona" is another "prediction" of Birkeland's models. He imaged one and everything. Did you ever read that one link with the sputtering reference. It also showed his corona. Let's see you duplicate that in a lab with "pseudosientific" magnetic reconnection.

It has all of the ionized species, intensities, etc., that you expect of a thin ultrahot plasma. Everyone agrees it's hot up there. (You, Michael, have one crazy idea about how it's heated; everyone disagrees, but that's a different topic.)

We disagree about why it gets hot Ben. I think it gets hot due to the "Current flow" going through it. You seem to think it's a "big mystery". It was no "mystery" to Birkeland and his team, they actually filmed one.

 

[GeeMack]

Hey, GeeMack, add GR to the list.

Indeed. And I'll add "dark matter" and "dark energy" as they are also terms which Michael clearly doesn't understand.

The terms Michael uses, the definitions of which he clearly does not understand include, but are not limited to:

• atmosphere
• blackbody
• cathode
• chromosphere
• current flow
• dark energy
• dark matter
• electric universe
• empirical
• general relativity
• gravity
• idiosyncratic
• limb darkening
• model
• nuclear chemistry
• opaque
• photosphere
• rigid
• running difference
• solar model
• sputtering
• theory

If Michael's arguments contain any of these words or phrases, we can accept the arguments as meaningless gibberish because he has demonstrated that he doesn't have the qualifications to understand them.​

 

[Michael Mozina]

Aha! A 6000K ion temperature, you say? Good, because the photosphere is in ion-electron equilibrium.

Boloney!

 

[Michael Mozina]

Indeed. And I'll add "dark matter" and "dark energy" as they are also terms which Michael clearly doesn't understand.

You better add your personal definition of "civil" to that list too, since your definition of that word seems to come from another planet.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I just described the million-degree coronal loops, Michael. They're an ultrahot, thin plasma that's high above the dense, cool plasma. Read the post again.

So how does a single coronal loop get to be millions of degrees ben?

 

[DeiRenDopa]

Um, er, ... and you have used this image to produce bounded estimates of "current flows" where, exactly?

No, I've used that image to demonstrate "rigid features" under the surface of the photosphere.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Has ""rigid features" under the surface of the photosphere" been of secondary importance to your ""cathode" solar model" all these years too?

 

[Michael Mozina]

I just described the million-degree coronal loops, Michael. They're an ultrahot, thin plasma that's high above the dense, cool plasma. Read the post again.

The existence of Ca X (or whatever) in coronal loops does not give you license to pretend that there's NOT Ca I and Ca II in the photosphere.

Whereas it's evidently fine to ignore all those CA/H images I posted for you that show massive mass flows up and through that layer? It's ok that you simply ignored that plasma filament shooting down the center of that "transparent' area in the middle of the sunspot that you claim is "opaque"? You guys simple ignore the visual evidence entirely ben!

 

[GeeMack]

IMO the term "I don't know" is a "better" scientific answer.

So run down Reality Check's list of 70+ questions and answer, "I don't know," to those which you can't answer. That is unless you consider ignorance an even better scientific approach than acknowledging that you don't know.

I predict this will be met with Michael's typical ignorance.

 

[ben m]

You see a whole sun, you see a shiny surface and you see million degree plasma sticking out out it! You *assume* it all relates to one surface (-500km) and coronal loop activity. I do not make that assumption.

I don't assume anything. This is all observed very cleanly. Do we need to start over, Michael? From the very beginning? Let's go. Pay attention this time.

What does it tell YOU that the Sun's visible-light spectrum shows absorption lines, not emission lines? Do you know what all of those words mean? Please look them up in a reliable, late-20th-century source.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Thanks for the confirmation.

Has ""rigid features" under the surface of the photosphere" been of secondary importance to your ""cathode" solar model" all these years too?

The cathode part is really a given. That's what makes the solar wind work DRD. Since you *REFUSE* to accept "current flow" in any form, it's still a great "mystery" to you, even though Birkeland "predicted" it 100 years ago. He simulated it too. You've yet to reproduce a single of his experiments with "magnetic reconnection" and you never will because that is pure "pseudoscience" according to the author the the MHD theory that you're kludging all to hell in an effort to avoid that dreaded "electricity'' word.