I had a dream about John McCain

[KingMerv00]

If there's any room for doubt in his mind as to whether or not you might be lying to him about your citizenship, for example,.... he must detain you.

That's not reasonable suspicion so that's a violation of the 4th amendment. The law requires cops to enforce federal law to its full extent, not beyond it.

Edit: Weren't we talking about probable cause anyway?

 

[drkitten]

That's not reasonable suspicion so that's a violation of the 4th amendment.

Reasonable suspicion is almost anything the cop wants it to be. "Furtive movements" are reasonable suspicion.

Edit: Weren't we talking about probable cause anyway?

No, we were talking about how "reasonable suspicion" turns into "probable cause" based on ones behavior at a Terry stop.

 

[drkitten]

Surely you mean "any room for reasonable suspicion."

No, I mean "any room for doubt." He had "reasonable suspicion" before he stopped you. Unless you have completely cleared up any and all suspicions the policeman has, his legally-mandated lack of discretion says that he must now detain/arrest you unless you have conclusively proven your citizenship.

 

[KingMerv00]

Reasonable suspicion is almost anything the cop wants it to be. "Furtive movements" are reasonable suspicion.

It's true reasonable suspicion can be abused but how is that different than any other law?

No, we were talking about how "reasonable suspicion" turns into "probable cause" based on ones behavior at a Terry stop.

I don't think the failure to present papers is enough to make that jump. Probable cause is the reasonable belief someone has committed the crime in question. Not carrying your birth certificate is not probable cause for the crime of illegal immigration. If it were, everyone would be under arrest.

 

[KingMerv00]

Unless you have completely cleared up any and all suspicions the policeman has, his legally-mandated lack of discretion says that he must now detain/arrest you unless you have conclusively proven your citizenship.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

From an occasional penchant for overstatement.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

I was nitpicking the dream police's choice of words.

The cop should have walked up to him and said,

"Do you know how fast you were going?"

 

[Alferd_Packer]

But under the new law, being illegal is a crime; the cops have probable cause as soon as you fail to produce your papers.

That is the catch-22 of the situation.

A resident alien is required under federal law to carry papers at all times.

A citizen is not required to carry identification.

Not having papers means that you are either a citizen in full compliance with the law,

a legal resident alien not in compliance, or a illegal alien not in compliance.

So if you don't have papers, is that probable cause to investigate further? No, since citizens are not required to carry papers.

 

[KingMerv00]

No, I mean "any room for doubt." He had "reasonable suspicion" before he stopped you. Unless you have completely cleared up any and all suspicions the policeman has, his legally-mandated lack of discretion says that he must now detain/arrest you unless you have conclusively proven your citizenship.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

Total bumpage.