Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[stilicho]

There are plenty of example of labs in the United States faking results in favor of the prosecution. I'm sure the situation is the same in other countries.

Each of the examples provided by halides1 also explained that those American labs had failed their audits among other things. Accusing the forensics team of fraud is a step few of the FOA-types are willing to take because they know they have no evidence whatsoever. They also must know that the defence teams will not be arguing this point on appeal.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Mary H writes:

I bet if we did a statistical analysis, though, we would find that the likelihood the results were faked is much higher than the likelihood that the bra clasp contained Raffaele's DNA, given that his DNA was not found elsewhere at the scene.

It could easily be a random fluke. It's quite true that the cigarette butt was the only other item they tested that showed Raffaele's DNA, but they didn't test every object, doorknob, and surface in the apartment. Two of Raffaele's fingerprints were found on the outside of Meredith's door. Could his DNA have been on the door, or the doorknob, as well? Sure. Why not? And why couldn't it have been transferred from that surface to the bra fastener, given that the fastener was handled extensively by two people before it was bagged as evidence?

The burden of proof ought to be on the prosecution. They should have to prove that contamination is not a realistic possibility, and that this DNA match can only be explained by Raffaele's involvement in the crime. Given the fact that they have no other clear physical evidence against Raffaele, and no trace of Amanda was found in the room where Meredith was killed, this single DNA match falls far short of any reasonable standard of proof.

They know that, too. That is why they tried to argue that the shoe prints at the crime scene matched Raffaele's sneakers. That is why they have been so adamant in trying to match the print on the bathmat to Raffaele, and trying to assign both an identity and criminal significance to murky, random footprints revealed with luminol. That is why they struggled to make the improbable argument that Raffaele slipped away and called the emergency number after the police were already there. Even Barbie Nadeau has acknowledged that the prosecution's case is weak. They don't have strong evidence. So they have compensated by coming up with lots of weak evidence that doesn't really prove anything, but can be presented as possibly incriminating.

The dust issue has been discussed and dismissed as an impossible means of transporting the size of the DNA signature found on the bra clasp. Halides1 even presented the papers that explained this means of contamination was impossible (although, that's not what he was trying to do with the papers) for the amount of Raffaele's DNA material on the clasp.

At the point the Defense accuses the lab of contamination, the Defense must show a viable means of that contamination occurring. So far, no viable means has arisen. The only viable means for Raffaele's DNA to have been on the clasp in as high a concentration as was found is for Raffaele to have left it there himself.

 

[stilicho]

I read the article and I, too, found that it sucked, for a variety of reasons. However, I don't want to get sent to the principal's office again with all the people who discussed PMF here last night, by now discussing tjmk.

The article is written by someone explaining why the accused and their representation took certain steps after their arrests to protect themselves. The author is apparently a lawyer although I've never read anything else he's written.

What exactly "sucked" about the article?

@Bruce Fisher: The article did not concern the backgrounds of any of the three accused.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Bob the Donkey writes:

The only viable means for Raffaele's DNA to have been on the clasp in as high a concentration as was found is for Raffaele to have left it there himself.

What is your source for this?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Bob the Donkey writes:

The only viable means for Raffaele's DNA to have been on the clasp in as high a concentration as was found is for Raffaele to have left it there himself.

What is your source for this?

I do believe Stefanoni stated as much during the trial, did she not?

Do you have evidence to the contrary? (edit: to both the original claim and that Stefanoni stated this in her testimony)

 

[Fulcanelli]

I think all these jailhouse witnesses are worthless.

For once Charlie and I agree. Charlie, you do realise that this appeal is going be totally FUBAR for the defence in this appeal? They are going to contradict totally what they argued throughout the main trial...that it was a lone wolf attack committed by Rudy Guede...and instead argue a multiple attacker scenario consisting of people other then Raffaele and Amanda) and they're going to do it using people that have no credibility whatsoever.

I don't know what the defence are playing at with this strategy...any ideas? I really can't believe this is their 'serious' plan. I'm guessing...that they are putting forward these witnesses as a tactic rather then a strategy, fully in the knowledge that the appeal court will refuse to admit them, but making the attempt simply to cast a shadow on the the conviction in the public arena and that when it comes to the appeal they'll go right back to arguing the lone wolf intruder scenario again. If they ARE serious about using these witnesses and changing their whole argument, for me, this can only be utter desperation. Those are just my thoughts.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Once more, thanks Charlie for the photographs.
If my sister or brother was in jail, facing 10/20/30 years or more for a murderous crime that they told me they did not commit, I would be soooo mad that the police officers investigating the murder were not changing gloves each and every time or using clean tweezers each and every time that ANY evidence was collected, bagged, and tagged!
Gosh, even I, a surfer from the streets, can see how that would potentially be a cause of contamination! I find some of the "prove it is contamination' posts here a little hard to swallow after I just saw these images. You gotta be kidding me if you post that that could not be a cause of contamination!

I wonder what someone like Fulcanelli, or anyone with a child would say if it was his/her child that was convicted by evidence that was collected from a police officer using those dirty gloves...
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

Three things you have to understand. First, the forensic team changed gloves before handing each new item. Second, when they returned to the cottage to collect the clasp, the clasp was the only item those officers were collecting so that was the only item they handled. Third, the dirt on the gloves had come 'off' of the clasp.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Bob the Donkey writes:

The only viable means for Raffaele's DNA to have been on the clasp in as high a concentration as was found is for Raffaele to have left it there himself.

What is your source for this?

The source for this is Dr Stefanoni. She explains it very well in the Massei Report.

 

[Dan O.]

Are you that totally incapable of putting the facts together?

• The view through the keyhole would reveal the bed with the covers stripped. It's possible that Meredith's purse would be seen on the bed.
  
• Meredith is not answering her phones or returning the calls.
  
• The state of the cottage with the door open, drops of blood, unflushed stool, broken window.

How do you come up with "zero reason"?

It still doesn't follow that she would be sleeping on the floor. Further, Raffaele and Amanda wouldn't have known that the phones are no longer with Meredith. They would have assumed they were still with Meredith. The logical assumption would have been that Meredith is not home (yet).

I don't have a problem with the Raffaele saying that she's missing. That is a pretty reasonable assumption.

If the claim was indeed made that she might be sleeping on the floor on the ohter hand, that is a rather strange and illogical conclusion to reach.

Where is your logic?

If Meredith's purse is visible on her bed it means that Meredith is in or near the cottage. If Meredith is not answering her phone it means she is probably not awake. If Meredith is not sleeping in her bed, where is she??

 

[Agatha]

Where is your logic?

If Meredith's purse is visible on her bed it means that Meredith is in or near the cottage.

Or she has gone out without her bag.

If Meredith is not answering her phone it means she is probably not awake. If Meredith is not sleeping in her bed, where is she??

As the phones were not heard to ring in the cottage, this means Meredith is probably elsewhere. There is no reason to jump to the conclusion that she is sleeping on the floor!

If she isn't answering her phones, this may mean she is asleep, but could also mean she doesn't want to be disturbed, or that she's too busy with something else to answer. It would require a leap of logic to assume that she is in her room, when the phones were not heard to ring.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Just as a quick correction to my earlier post. When the forensics returned to collect the clasp, it wasn't the only item they retrieved from Meredith's on that date. They also collected her handbag and her blue top. It of course doesn't change the fact that they changed gloved before handling each new item. Neither could the handbag or the top be the source of Raffaele's DNA in any case since they were tested and none of his DNA was found on those items.Moreover, it doesn't change the fact that Raffaele's DNA on the clasp required direct first party contact.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Where is your logic?

If Meredith's purse is visible on her bed it means that Meredith is in or near the cottage. If Meredith is not answering her phone it means she is probably not awake. If Meredith is not sleeping in her bed, where is she??

Why are you arguing this irrelevant nonsense anyway? Amanda and Raffaele stated they were unable to see anything through the keyhole. And on this matter I believe them for I'm certain when they locked the door they'd have looked through to check and make sure that nobody would be able to see anything.

 

[Jungle Jim]

I would add that sleeping on a tiled floor during a cold night is illogical.

 

[christianahannah]

I find it in Massei's Report^* quoted from Amanda's email home. But it's strange that I don't find it in the email itself.

Of course it hasn't been discussed before because the Guilters would be all over it as proof that Amanda knew Meredith was lying on her floor.


(*) Page 19

Dan can you post the part of the Massei report which deals with the speculation that Meredith was perhaps sleeping on the floor?

 

[Amazer]

I would add that sleeping on a tiled floor during a cold night is illogical.

Especially if a perfectly good empty bed is right next you.

 

[Alt+F4]

Where is your logic?

If Meredith's purse is visible on her bed it means that Meredith is in or near the cottage. If Meredith is not answering her phone it means she is probably not awake. If Meredith is not sleeping in her bed, where is she??

In your world of twisted logic people sleep on the floor and if they don't answer their phone they have to be asleep.

All this was occuring around 12 noon, the logical conclusion is she's not home, she out and she didn't hear the phone ring or choose not to answer it.

 

[Supernaut]

I didn't realize it reacted with urine. That's interesting because a LOT of people secretly piss in the shower.

Ped+ant (ˈped.ənt) n. 1. a person who gets out of the shower to take a piss

 

[Dan O.]

Dan can you post the part of the Massei report which deals with the speculation that Meredith was perhaps sleeping on the floor?

Begining on page 19 of the Massei Report:

Va anche ricordato che Amanda Knox, su tale specifico particolare, nella E-mail inviata il 4.11.2007 a 25 persone negli USA, dopo aver riferito del caos presente nella stanza di Filomena, della finestra aperta e del vetro rotto, così continuava: "Andai poi nella parte della casa che io e Meredith dividevamo e controllai che nella mia stanza non mancasse niente ed infatti non mancava niente. Allora bussai alla porta di Meredith. Dapprima pensai che stesse dormendo per cui bussai piano ma poiché non rispondeva cominciai a bussare ripetutamente finché cominciai a battere con forza sulla porta mentre gridavo il suo nome. Nessuna risposta. Presa dal panico corsi in terrazzo per vedere se riuscivo a vedere qualcosa da sopra il davanzale della finestra ma non riuscivo a vedere l'interno".​

Google's Translation:

It should also be remembered that Amanda Knox, on that specific particular, the E-mail sent on 04/11/2007 to 25 people in the U.S., after reports of chaos in Filomena's room, opened the window and broken glass, he continued: " Then I went into the house that we shared and Meredith and I checked into my room that nothing is missing and in fact nothing was missing. Then I knocked on the door of Meredith. At first I thought she was sleeping on the floor where I knocked but no answer since I began to knock repeatedly until I began to beat hard on the door and shouted his name. No answer. panicked courses in the balcony to see if I could see something from above the window sill but I could not see inside. "​

It could use a better translation because as I've said, the Massei Report is quoting the email home and there is nothing about sleeping on the floor in the email.

It's also not certain that it is possible to see through the keyhole of that particular lock. The statement that I remember is that Amanda said Raffaele "tried" to look through the keyhole. There is no indication that he was successful. Perhaps someone in Italy or europe can find an AGB interroom lock at a hardware store or installed somewhere and confirm if it is possible to see through the keyhole. Looking at the shape of the key itself indicates that there must be a sliding bearing in the lock and this bearing would block most of the view leaving at most the barring hole itself to look through.

 

[Supernaut]

They [the footprints in the hallway] weren't being scrubbed 'away', the purpose was yo raise the content to test for DNA.

You mean;

"yes, they were scrubbed away, [but] the purpose was yo raise the content to test for DNA."

Something like that?

Keep it up "Fulcanelli" - Amanda Knox needs enemies like you.

 

[Oliebol]

Begining on page 19 of the Massei Report:

Va anche ricordato che Amanda Knox, su tale specifico particolare, nella E-mail inviata il 4.11.2007 a 25 persone negli USA, dopo aver riferito del caos presente nella stanza di Filomena, della finestra aperta e del vetro rotto, così continuava: "Andai poi nella parte della casa che io e Meredith dividevamo e controllai che nella mia stanza non mancasse niente ed infatti non mancava niente. Allora bussai alla porta di Meredith. Dapprima pensai che stesse dormendo per cui bussai piano ma poiché non rispondeva cominciai a bussare ripetutamente finché cominciai a battere con forza sulla porta mentre gridavo il suo nome. Nessuna risposta. Presa dal panico corsi in terrazzo per vedere se riuscivo a vedere qualcosa da sopra il davanzale della finestra ma non riuscivo a vedere l'interno".​

Google's Translation:

It should also be remembered that Amanda Knox, on that specific particular, the E-mail sent on 04/11/2007 to 25 people in the U.S., after reports of chaos in Filomena's room, opened the window and broken glass, he continued: " Then I went into the house that we shared and Meredith and I checked into my room that nothing is missing and in fact nothing was missing. Then I knocked on the door of Meredith. At first I thought she was sleeping on the floor where I knocked but no answer since I began to knock repeatedly until I began to beat hard on the door and shouted his name. No answer. panicked courses in the balcony to see if I could see something from above the window sill but I could not see inside. "​

It could use a better translation because as I've said, the Massei Report is quoting the email home and there is nothing about sleeping on the floor in the email.

there is also no "sleeping on the floor" in the original.