Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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Great. Start with any modern day "Lambda-CDM" model and tell me how much of that theory (percentage wise) is composed of ordinary elements from the periodic table, electrons, neutrinos, and other things that have been verified in the lab. Then tell me how much of that theory is based *STRICTLY* upon "dark" stuff, and things that fail to show up in experiments on Earth.

If you really want me to, I will, but that doesn't apply to this conversation.

We're talking about astronomy, not cosmology.

So what, specifically, is this 96% of math that is not based on empirical evidence? Because, quite frankly, the whole cosmological situation, while built on the basis of astronomy (as well as a host of other disciplines), is not astronomy. Nor is it used at all in determining the composition or structure of a star.

So, can you list a few examples of incorrect astronomical maths? I mean, if 96% of them are wrong and/or not evidence based, it should be no problem to list a dozen or so.

You do know what maths are jused in astronomy and where they came from, right? What am I saying, of course you do! You'd have to in order to ethically and correctly make the claim that 96% of them are worthless.
 
Oh, that's rich. It's *YOUR* theory, not mine, and you can't possibly meet that burden of proof from the standpoint of empirical physics in any lab on Earth. It's all "point at the sky and add invisible math bunnies".

Michael, your solar model has come crashing down around your feet. Trying to change the subject to cosmology and making claims with statistics you pull out of your backside isn't going to fool anyone. This thread isn't about cosmology, it's about the sun.
 
Where's the GM post where he describes MM's behaviour?

The one about deflecting, changing the topic, (deliberately?) not answering (nearly all) hard questions, etc? And then starting all over again, a few months' later ...
 
If you really want me to, I will, but that doesn't apply to this conversation.

We're talking about astronomy, not cosmology.

So what, specifically, is this 96% of math that is not based on empirical evidence? Because, quite frankly, the whole cosmological situation, while built on the basis of astronomy (as well as a host of other disciplines), is not astronomy. Nor is it used at all in determining the composition or structure of a star.

So, can you list a few examples of incorrect astronomical maths? I mean, if 96% of them are wrong and/or not evidence based, it should be no problem to list a dozen or so.

You do know what maths are jused in astronomy and where they came from, right? What am I saying, of course you do! You'd have to in order to ethically and correctly make the claim that 96% of them are worthless.

Well H, it you're going to distinguish between them, you're right. I can't say solar physics isn't based on real physics. It is. It's not like those dark math bunnies that only appear "somewhere out there". There is in fact a firm physical basis for the SSM, even based on my own criteria.

Unfortunately for you (IMO anyway) all of those solar theories are based upon the concept that iron and hydrogen will stay mixed together. It's based upon concepts that will now have to pass serious high resolution scrutiny. I don't see any visual evidence whatsoever that the "opaque" concept is going to fly. Even in that Hinode image I posted earlier, and that gband image I posted earlier, there's no visual justification for that 500Km arbitrary figure related to "opacity". That will only work if in fact all elements do stay mixed, and I see no visual evidence that is likely. I see evidence from the field of nuclear chemistry that your methods of determining composition are not accurate. I see heliosiesmology data of "stratification" that is likely related to plasma separation. I see neon and silicon ionization states galore in that SERTS data that standard theory simply doesn't explain.

IMO the whole SSM was based on that "opacity" claim to make it easier to apply math to distant objects. If however it's not that "simple", then most of your astronomy beliefs will also need to be adjusted. I can see from that million mile per hour solar wind that you cannot explain that your theories need some "electricity" to make them work, even if you're emotionally attached to the sun being a plasma cathode rather than a solid cathode.
 
Michael, your solar model has come crashing down around your feet. Trying to change the subject to cosmology and making claims with statistics you pull out of your backside isn't going to fool anyone. This thread isn't about cosmology, it's about the sun.

Nothing has come crashing down anywhere except in your head Zig. Sooner or later you will have to turn to Birkeland's work to explain the SDO images and data sets. I'm not even personally emotionally attached to a "rigid" or a "solid" solar model, just a "cathode" solar model. Until you can empirically simulate the solar wind that Birkeland simulated in real science experiments here on Earth without using "current flow" to make it work, only then will Birkeland's cathode solar model come crashing down, and only then will anything I have published to date come "crashing down". Get real.
 
Well H, it you're going to distinguish between them, you're right. I can't say solar physics isn't based on real physics. It is. It's not like those dark math bunnies that only appear "somewhere out there". There is in fact a firm physical basis for the SSM, even based on my own criteria.

Unfortunately for you (IMO anyway) all of those solar theories are based upon the concept that iron and hydrogen will stay mixed together. It's based upon concepts that will now have to pass serious high resolution scrutiny. I don't see any visual evidence whatsoever that the "opaque" concept is going to fly. Even in that Hinode image I posted earlier, and that gband image I posted earlier, there's no visual justification for that 500Km arbitrary figure related to "opacity". That will only work if in fact all elements do stay mixed, and I see no visual evidence that is likely. I see evidence from the field of nuclear chemistry that your methods of determining composition are not accurate. I see heliosiesmology data of "stratification" that is likely related to plasma separation. I see neon and silicon ionization states galore in that SERTS data that standard theory simply doesn't explain.

IMO the whole SSM was based on that "opacity" claim to make it easier to apply math to distant objects. If however it's not that "simple", then most of your astronomy beliefs will also need to be adjusted. I can see from that million mile per hour solar wind that you cannot explain that your theories need some "electricity" to make them work, even if you're emotionally attached to the sun being a plasma cathode rather than a solid cathode.

So.

You lied (or were simply ignorant of the meaning of the words you were using) when you claimed 96% of the math used in astronomy was incorrect.

I'll go further. You are also lying if your claim is that 96% of the math used in cosmology is incorrect, because MOST of the math it uses is the same math used in astronomy and other disciplines, well-supported by evidence and experiment.

Additionally, you've been lying and dodging the entire time in this thread when you've continually dismissed everyone else's "math bunnies", which are based on the very same math you now say is legitimate. And yet you disregarded it, ignored it, and insulted those who tried to show you youre errors.

So, by your own words, you are willing to disregard math not because it isn't based in evidence, but simply because it doesn't support the anmswer you want. You disregard evidence, not because it is incorrec,t but because you simply don't want to (are incapable of) admitting you are wrong.

Thanks for clearing that up so quickly.
 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17007668/...ectric-Phenomena-in-Solar-Systems-and-Nebulae

FYI, this is a link to the part of Birkeland's book where he explains how his theories relate to solar physics. His book is *LOADED* with math by the way, not to mention loaded with lot's of empirical support based on laboratory testing. His methods were not "Oh look, lights in sky, "Dark energy did it!"".

Dark energy has nothing to do with star formation or powering stars after they are formed. If you must rail on against dark energy, please start a new thread.
 
I've never seen a set of goalposts moved so much. The amount of wear and tear on them is incredible.
 
Where's the GM post where he describes MM's behaviour?

How about his behaviors? GM called Birkeland a "Bozo" without a clue in terms of solar physics. In the next post he's trying to defend Birkeland's good name? Talk about irrational and hypocritical behaviors! You guys/gals just let all that stuff slide like it's perfectly normal behavior.

He also whines about the conversation being "uncivil" after calling me a fraud and a liar so many time I lost count. Please. Don't even get me started.
 
It wasn't the electrons that coalesced into planets GM. Are you really trying to claim that not one single atom that exists on Earth today originally came from the sun?


Right, it was individual atoms and molecules. :D Birkeland apparently considered three kinds of stuff was being spewed from the Sun. They were colloidal corpuscles, collections of molecules, and separate atoms. These things were thrown into space, some never to return, others returned to the Sun by gravity, and the fewest of them coalesced to form new planets. What a moron that Birkeland was, don't you think? Oh, and I got that from your own source. If you'd actually read the material you wave around you'd be able to avoid those ridiculously foolish arguments of yours. :p
 
Dark energy has nothing to do with star formation or powering stars after they are formed. If you must rail on against dark energy, please start a new thread.

Actually you cannot demonstrate they are not related. You claim "dark energy" makes up 70% or the universe and causes acceleration. The solar wind is accelerating. Is that "dark energy" too?
 
Oh, that's rich. It's *YOUR* theory, not mine, and you can't possibly meet that burden of proof from the standpoint of empirical physics in any lab on Earth. It's all "point at the sky and add invisible math bunnies".

Let's see:

1) Magic ionization state of neon? You made it up. Never seen in any lab.
2) A hot shell around a cold object that doesn't violate thermo? You made it up. Never seen in any lab.
3) Magic non-Newtonian gravity that "holds down" charged particles in a 6MV potential? You made it up. In real labs, electrostatic forces and gravity add up according to Newton's Laws.
4) A stack of plasma layers, none of which are actually at 6000K, that magically add up to 6000K blackbody radiation? Never seen. In real labs, radiation obeys the well-known radiation laws and no other.

You see, Michael, when physicists proposed the dark energy hypothesis, we checked whether it was consistent with lab physics. It is. Adding dark energy to the equation does NOT suddenly change the results of all of Newton's, Faraday's, Rutherford's, Draper's, Eotvos's, and Joule's experiments. We didn't make it up and then assume it was right. We made it up---hypothesized it---and then tested it against everything we've ever measured. It's consistent with everything. The null hypothesis, "all of the laws of physics as usual EXCEPT dark energy=0" is consistent with everything except precision cosmology data.

You, Michael, are making hypotheses which are already known to be false. You invented a new ionization state for neon---but if you compare this hypothesis to 19th and 20th century thermodynamics experiments you find that it doesn't work. You invented the hypothesis "solar gravity prevent a high-voltage ions from accelerating outwards", but if you compare this hypothesis to Coulomb's and Cavendish's experiments you find that they contradict. You invented a new hypothesis "the sum of the spectra of 2000K iron and 2,000,000K neon is the same as a 6000K blackbody", but this hypothesis is already known to be false.

Practically everything you say about the Sun, Michael, is a new and crazy hypothesis that directly contradicts lab experiments. That's much, much worse than proposing a hypothesis (like "MOND is the correct theory of gravity") that contradicts cosmology; and it's much, much, much, much worse than proposing a hypothesis (like "dark energy exists") whose only failing is that it's very difficult to test.

Seriously, Michael---if you want to respect lab experiments, start with the experiments that established the blackbody. Then take a look at the experiments that established Maxwell's Equations. Then try, I dunno, Newton's Force Laws. Your sun hypothesis is calling all of those experiments wrong in one way or another.
 
Two more:

* sputtering
* gravity

I suspect current (or something similar, like current flow) will soon be added:


The terms Michael uses, the definitions of which he clearly does not understand include, but are not limited to:

  • photosphere
  • chromosphere
  • opaque
  • limb darkening
  • idiosyncratic
  • empirical
  • solar model
  • blackbody
  • rigid
  • sputtering
  • gravity
  • cathode
  • current flow
We know if of Michael's arguments contain any of these terms, we can accept them as meaningless gibberish, because although lord knows how hard we've tried to help him understand this stuff, it has been a near futile effort.

Michael, you should make a point of eliminating those words and phrases from your posts. And as we find more terms which you don't understand, we'll add them to the list and you can cease using them, too. It will make this whole communication thing much better for everyone if we get rid of the parts of your arguments that are causing confusion.
 
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Nothing has come crashing down anywhere except in your head Zig.

Sure it has. Hell, even you know that, which is why you've backed off your previous claims of a solid surface for the sun.

Sooner or later you will have to turn to Birkeland's work to explain the SDO images and data sets.

Hardly.

I'm not even personally emotionally attached to a "rigid" or a "solid" solar model, just a "cathode" solar model.

So your attachment to the "cathode" solar model (which isn't a model at all, just a vague collection of ideas) is emotional. Not surprising, since it sure as hell isn't logical.

Until you can empirically simulate the solar wind that Birkeland simulated in real science experiments here on Earth without using "current flow" to make it work, only then will Birkeland's cathode solar model come crashing down, and only then will anything I have published to date come "crashing down". Get real.

Once again, you have revealed your misconception of science. Suppose theory A explains one observation. If I show that theory B explains that observation too, that doesn't disprove theory A. So "simulating" solar winds without current flow would NOT invalidate Birkeland's model.

But the power output of the sun does invalidate Birkeland's model. Birkeland has no sensible explanation for where the energy to power the sun comes from. This is hardly surprising, since it comes from fusion and fusion was not known during Birkeland's time. So I don't fault the guy. But I do fault you, because you should know better. But you don't. Because you're clueless about physics, and refuse almost every opportunity to learn.
 
(bold added)


....which, when we plug in the numbers, gives us the speed of the electrons as 700 million metres per second.

Before I proceed to check this model against empirical reality (i.e. results of experiments in the lab), I'd like MM to check my model for any flaws, errors, shortcomings, etc.

Of course, every other JREF member reading this is more than welcome to do so too, but if you could, please limit your comments to any mistakes I may have made in my math.

Appologies if this has already been addressed, but aren't the electrons then moving faster than the speed of light?
 
Where's the GM post where he describes MM's behaviour?

The one about deflecting, changing the topic, (deliberately?) not answering (nearly all) hard questions, etc? And then starting all over again, a few months' later ...


This one?...

That's his argument by misdirection. Here's how he typically applies it: Troll some knowledgeable people into doing a bunch of work he's clearly not qualified to do himself, only to spit on them in the end by adding a couple more impossible assumptions to the mix and expecting them to start over. I've seen him use this technique to take people on rides for pages and pages, then literally ignore all their responses and jump to another topic as if it never happened.

It's a rework of the old stand-by, argument by shifting the burden of proof, but with the addition of kicking people in the teeth after they've invested a lot of time and effort into trying to help him. Like a good con man he'll toss in an occasional insincere thank-you or coy apology, but unlike a good con man, Michael's use of this method to milk a failed argument is pretty transparent. It's a dishonest and manipulative way to work an argument, and one of his most often employed. It might be second only to his preferred method, argument by looks-like-a-bunny.
 
For the record your incivility is noted.

Could you please explain to me how you figure it is "civil" conversation to refer to Birkeland as a "moron' and a clueless "bozo", but when one of those terms is directed back at you, it's somehow 'uncivil' on *my* part? You made me choose between the two of you! Don't blame me for the outcome.
 
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