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Noah's Ark found?

154 do you believe all the bible stories to be literally true?
You say no-one told you the bible is the word of god: that is a lie.
Anybody who has heard of the bible knows it is claimed to be a holy book. Where did you find it to read it if you truly hadn't heard it was the word of god?
 
Marduk said:
Hey stop stealing my soapbox, I'm waiting to hear about all this really credible evidence so that I can be saved
:D
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.
With the well-known number of 144,000 for the select/chosen, getting into that crew out of the billions that feel that they will be is going to be a life-long challenge..
Being holier than everyone takes a serious amount of concentration.
Unless of course the number is in error.... I crack me up! :)
 
Let me get this straight.

Let's assume 154 is correct and there is a god.

Being accepted into eternal bliss means rejecting what objective and reproducable science tells us about the world and universe we live in. Or at least the parts that cast doubt on whether or not he exists. Or keeping them, but attributing them to the invisible hand of a creator manning the till even though science tells us it's something else.

Being rejected into eternal damnation and suffering means using the inductive reasoning and observation that were presumably given to us by god, and following them to the only pure empirical conclusion that there isn't actually a god after all. Because of hubris or something.

Yeah, that sounds great.
 
154 said:
I disagree. I do not think you are superior in your understanding, even though your understanding inevitably compels you to condescendingly denounce mine.

"Not a shred of evidence" is absurd and only reveals your prejudice.
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Most Christians know there isn't any evidence, that's what Faith is for. If there was evidence, no Faith would be required.
 
Belz... said:
Wow. And you claim to be a Christian.
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My asking you for your position, which I knew you would be reluctant to deal with, has no relevance to mine, now does it?

Marcus said:
Most Christians know there isn't any evidence, that's what Faith is for. If there was evidence, no Faith would be required.
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There is more than ample enough evidence to substantiate Faith, even though it may fall short of "proof," for any honest, open, willing seeker.
 
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154 said:
There is more than ample enough evidence to substantiate Faith, even though it may fall short of "proof," for any honest, open, willing seeker.
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Faith based on evidence isn't faith, it's knowledge. Knowledge would violate free will.

And as I've said many times before and you apparently have no response to, this statement simply isn't true. There are many here and elsewhere who have spent most of their lives being honest, open, willing seekers and have not found enough evidence to substantiate Faith. They've knocked but no door has been opened, they've sought but have not found, they've asked but they did not receive.

Are you a Calvinist?
 
154 said:
There is more than ample enough evidence to substantiate Faith, even though it may fall short of "proof," for any honest, open, willing seeker.
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Can you tell us about this evidence please?
Do you believe all the bible to be literally true?
If no one told you it was the word of god, how did you reach that conclusion?
Are you claiming that you had no idea it was meant to be the word of god before you read it, but that you came to that conclusion youself based on what you read?
 
temporalillusion said:
Faith based on evidence isn't faith, it's knowledge. Knowledge would violate free will.
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If this were true, then the conclusion would be that there is no free will in heaven.

Which runs into a real conundrum. On one hand, christians rant and rave about it is SO important to have free will. But then how can heaven be so great if it doesn't include free will?

Here's another one: Revelations says that Satan is a fallen angel. Well, if "knowledge of god" violates free will, and Satan presumably had knowledge of God, that means that Satan didn't actually have free will, which makes you wonder, why did he actually rebel? Can he actually be considered responsible for rebelling against God if he didn't actually have free will?

Actually, Satan's rebellion is better interpreted as indicating that even WITH knowledge of God (and direct access, apparently), it is possible to choose to rebel, indicating that knowing God exists in fact does NOT preclude free will.
 
Radrook said:
What's the biblical definition of faith and where do you find it?
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"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

IOW, Paul says that faith is what you use when you don't actually have physical evidence and you want something to be true.

Pretty fair characterization of it, as far as I can see.
 
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bolasanibk said:
Ignoring all of the other logical reasons why an ark would take a 'miracle' to work the way bible literalists want it to, there are two arguments which really confuse me.

1) Noah had the help of people other than his immediate family in building the ark.
So god lets these people work on the boat for a few months or a year knowing that they are all going to die by drowning with no place on the ark they built.

2) The animals taken on board were juveniles. So they don't need as much space or food as adults.
You take a bunch of juveniles animals(quite a few of which are very social animals), kill their parents and the rest of the herd/band and stuff them into tiny boxes on board a rolling ship in a flood for a year.

But still god is kind and merciful?
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Where in the Genesis account does it say he had the help of people other than his imediate family?
 
pgwenthold said:
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

IOW, Paul says that faith is what you use when you don't actually have physical evidence and you want something to be true.

Pretty fair characterization of it, as far as I can see.
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EVIDENCE of things unseen. EVIDENCE!

Eyewitnesses

1 Pet 2:

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
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Radrook said:
EVIDENCE of things unseen. EVIDENCE!
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Paul says that faith = evidence

Not "based on evidence"

Moreover, it is "evidence" for "things unseen." IOW, things that don't actually have physical evidence. Don't forget the "things hoped for"

As I said, he is saying it is the "evidence" for things that don't have any physical evidence but you want them to be true
 
pgwenthold said:
Paul says that faith = evidence

Not "based on evidence"

Moreover, it is "evidence" for "things unseen." IOW, things that don't actually have physical evidence. Don't forget the "things hoped for"

As I said, he is saying it is the "evidence" for things that don't have any physical evidence but you want them to be true
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The things as yet unseen, as Peter explained are the prophecies as yet unfuilfilled. These things are assured to become a reality by the fulfillment of previous prophecies and by what the Apostles witnessed with their own eyes. For example the ressurection of Jesus and the ressuretions he performed are evidence of things which are presently unseen-the promissed ressurection of the dead. The healings Jesus performed are the evidence of the as yet unseen curing of mankind as promised in Revelation and the restoration of all things menmtioned in the OT. These are the things unseen and hoped for and expected to occur with assurance based on the evidence I just mentioned. The article on the site below explains it in further detail.

http://www.christistheway.com/2001/a01a07aa.html

BTW
I'm not going to debate you on this. If you accept you accept it if you don't you don't.
 
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Radrook said:
The things as yet unseen, as Peter explained are the prophecies as yet unfuilfilled. These things are assured to become a reality by the fulfillment of previous prophecies and by what the Apostles witnessed with their own eyes. For example the ressurection of Jesus and the ressuretions he performed are evidence of things which are presently unseen-the promissed ressurection of the dead. The healings Jesus performed are the evidence of the as yet unseen curing of mankind as promised in Revelation and the restoration of all things menmtioned in the OT. These are the things unseen and hoped for and expected to occur with assurance based on the evidence I just mentioned.
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The evidence you just mentioned is not, in fact, evidence. it is unsubstantiated assertion which goes against all we know of the universe.
There is no evidence that any prophecies were fulfilled.
There is no evidence that jesus was resurrected.
There is no evidence he performed resurrections.
There is no evidence he healed anyone.
All you have are stories.
Why do you believe those particular stories and not others?
How do you choose which stories to believe?
 
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