Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Do you see discussions like this and many other discussions about this case that are occurring elsewhere happening with other cases where people have already been convicted? Not many right? This is because this case was not handled correctly. many people know this and are speaking out.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have been wrongly convicted.

You keep saying that...and you keep failing to refute the evidence against the duo with anything other than pure speculation and willful disregard for evidence that doesn't suit what you want to believe.
 
You seem awfully sure about all that for someone who doesn't actually have any evidence that Rudy did all that.

At most, we have evidence that Rudy moved Meredith's purse and that he left bloody footprints out the front door.

Who closed/locked Meredith's door? Why was none of Rudy's DNA, nor Meredith's blood, found on the phones? Where are the bloody shoeprints between Meredith's door and the entrance to the hallway?

Why was no glass found outside of the cottage? Why was no evidence of Rudy's presence found in Filomena's room? Why was Raffaele's DNA in the 2nd highest concentration of all the traces found on the bra clasp? How did Meredith's DNA arrive on the knife and if by contamination, why did Raffaele feel the need to write a fictional explanation (read: lie) for how it arrived there?

Wow, that was a post of pure desperation. You really threw everything into on post. Very nice.

I would imagine that Rudy closed and locked the door.

There is a shoe prints, set in Meredith's blood between Meredith's door and the entrance to the hall.

The bra clasp was not handled properly. We have gone over this many times.

The knife is a complete joke. The kitchen knife had nothing to do with the murder. I know you think that Amanda carried it around for protection but that is just silly.

The DNA testing on the knife is discussed in great detail on my site.

You keep bringing up Raffaele's speculation of the knife. Why don't you bring up all of his other theories also? He was trying to imagine how the police could possibly have the evidence they claimed to have. We wasn't giving a statement to the police. He wasn't on the stand.

You keep talking about the glass outside the cottage. Look at the window. Look at the glass on the sill and inside the room. How much more glass do you expect to come from that portion that was broken? Where are the photographs showing the lack of glass on the ground outside? I know you think they thoroughly investigated the ground outside. I am sure a through investigation would include photographs.
 
You keep saying that...and you keep failing to refute the evidence against the duo with anything other than pure speculation and willful disregard for evidence that doesn't suit what you want to believe.

I have provided plenty of information to back my statements. You might disagree with the information that I provide but I certainly provide it.
 
You keep saying that...and you keep failing to refute the evidence against the duo with anything other than pure speculation and willful disregard for evidence that doesn't suit what you want to believe.

You have made several claims about Amanda and Raffaele being caught by surprise by the postal police. You suggested that they didn't have time to clean the bathroom because the postals showed up. I have proven to you that Raffaele called the police before the postals arrived.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/garage.html

Do you still stand by your previous statements?
 
Wow, that was a post of pure desperation. You really threw everything into on post. Very nice.
Not desperation. Just decidedly not going to let you change the subject (again) to different points.


I would imagine that Rudy closed and locked the door.
That's not what his shoe prints show. Nor is there evidence of Rudy touching the door (at least, not that I'm aware of).

There is a shoe prints, set in Meredith's blood between Meredith's door and the entrance to the hall.
They're not marked on your website, unless you've updated the map in the past few days.

The bra clasp was not handled properly. We have gone over this many times.
Yes, we've agreed that the bra clasp was not handled in the best of ways. However, there is still a remaining issue that has not been resolved. Namely: How did Raffaele's DNA enter the room (a room he was never in) in enough of a concentration that his DNA was found in a higher concentration than anyone else who ever visited the cottage, including those who lived in the cottage?

The knife is a complete joke. The kitchen knife had nothing to do with the murder. I know you think that Amanda carried it around for protection but that is just silly.

The DNA testing on the knife is discussed in great detail on my site.
And, yet, the DNA profile from the knife is an incredibly close match to Meredith's. So are you claiming contamination? If so, where?

You keep bringing up Raffaele's speculation of the knife. Why don't you bring up all of his other theories also? He was trying to imagine how the police could possibly have the evidence they claimed to have. We wasn't giving a statement to the police. He wasn't on the stand.
Regardless, he lied in his journal. Raffaele also speculated that Amanda had given the knife to the murderer. Sure, it's speculation - but on the one hand, we have a scenario that is plausible (i.e. Amanda gave the knife to the murderer) vs on the other hand a scenario that has absolutely zero plausibility (i.e. the lie about pricking Meredith while cooking together). Amanda could have given the knife to the murderer, Raffaele could not have pricked Meredith with the knife. That's what makes it a pure lie.
You keep talking about the glass outside the cottage. Look at the window. Look at the glass on the sill and inside the room. How much more glass do you expect to come from that portion that was broken? Where are the photographs showing the lack of glass on the ground outside? I know you think they thoroughly investigated the ground outside. I am sure a through investigation would include photographs.
We do have testimony that the area outside the window was inspected for glass. Do you have pictures showing a lack of glass? If not, then we must take the testimony as being accurate - i.e. we have evidence that the area under the window was inspected. If you wish to refute this evidence, you acquire the burden of proving the testimony wrong.



ETA: I do not believe Amanda carried the knife for protection. I have, in fact, never stated that I did. I did state that I believe Massei cut Amanda some slack on that issue. I personally believe Amanda carried the knife that night with the intent of simply scaring Meredith.
 
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You have made several claims about Amanda and Raffaele being caught by surprise by the postal police. You suggested that they didn't have time to clean the bathroom because the postals showed up. I have proven to you that Raffaele called the police before the postals arrived.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/garage.html

Do you still stand by your previous statements?

I stand by my argument that we are unsure of when the Police were called. Neither side has proven their case on this issue. Your site presents no new evidence, nor any new argument on this issue and as such, I refuse to change my position that it's unknown.

Who knows, maybe the duo were taking a break in the garden before finishing cleaning up. Or maybe they figured they'd cleaned the bathroom/hallway well enough that they felt comfortable enough to call the police. I mean, there had to be some kind of evidence left in the bathroom or it would be overly suspicious.

In addition to my last post: You've been unable to prove that Rudy was ever in Filomena's room and that the footprint in the bathroom is Rudy's.
 
You seem awfully sure about all that for someone who doesn't actually have any evidence that Rudy did all that.

At most, we have evidence that Rudy moved Meredith's purse and that he left bloody footprints out the front door.

Who closed/locked Meredith's door? Why was none of Rudy's DNA, nor Meredith's blood, found on the phones? Where are the bloody shoeprints between Meredith's door and the entrance to the hallway?

Why was no glass found outside of the cottage? Why was no evidence of Rudy's presence found in Filomena's room? Why was Raffaele's DNA in the 2nd highest concentration of all the traces found on the bra clasp? How did Meredith's DNA arrive on the knife and if by contamination, why did Raffaele feel the need to write a fictional explanation (read: lie) for how it arrived there?

Who closed/locked Meredith's door?

Whoever was in the room with her when she was killed. Does this point to Rudy, Amanda, or Rafaelle specifically? No. Inconclusive.

Why was none of Rudy's DNA, nor Meredith's blood, found on the phones?


For the same reason no one's DNA was found on the phones. The phones eother traveled by teleportation or were handled in such a way that DNA was not shed. Inconclusive.

Why was no glass found outside of the cottage?

Is this a fact? We have no photographic evidence of this right? So, this point can't be taken with the same grain of salt as Raf's shoe print matching footprints in Meredith's bedroom... something that was taken as fact until it was later proven wrong by Raf's sister, not law enforcement.

Why was no evidence of Rudy's presence found in Filomena's room?

For the same reason that no particular person's "presence" was found. Again, inconclusive.

Why was Raffaele's DNA in the 2nd highest concentration of all the traces found on the bra clasp?

Is the assertion here that when a DNA sample is found in higher concentration than other samples on the same item that it cancels out contamination?

How did Meredith's DNA arrive on the knife and if by contamination, why did Raffaele feel the need to write a fictional explanation (read: lie) for how it arrived there?[

It's widely believed that the DNA found on the knife was too low to be credible. You can write this off as for whatever reasons you have. But the fact is LCN DNA is not accepted everywhere, and rarely in the United States. It can best be described as "controversial". It's not just people who believe that Amanda and Rafaelle might be innocent who believe this. Barbie Nadeau, who leans strongly towards Amanda and Rafaelle being guilty, believes the knife should not have been admitted as evidence, and also has no problem stating in her book that Italian police-work was sloppy and that Stefanoni admitted in court that she made mistakes in her collection of evidence at the crime scene. The authors of "Darkness Descending" say the same thing. In fact, it's hard to find any source, outside of the Massei report, who believes the forensic evidence isn't seriously flawed. I have yet to read a book on the case or viewpoint of anyone in the fields of science who doesn't think the double DNA is highly questionable. If I am incorrect, please point me to any that think otherwise. As someone earlier pointed out, a scientist over at PMF also discounts the knife as credible evidence.
 
Do you see discussions like this and many other discussions about this case that are occurring elsewhere happening with other cases where people have already been convicted? Not many right? This is because this case was not handled correctly. many people know this and are speaking out.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have been wrongly convicted.

Their case might not have been handled correctly. However, the scenarios and explanations that you have been giving us do very little to convince me that this is the case.

Your scenarios typically ignore facts that you don't like. They require people and items to behave in ways that defy natural laws. And they always assume the best possible explanation for Amanda and the worst possible explanation for just about anyone else in order to make the scenario possible.
 
Who closed/locked Meredith's door?

Whoever was in the room with her when she was killed. Does this point to Rudy, Amanda, or Rafaelle specifically? No. Inconclusive.

Why was none of Rudy's DNA, nor Meredith's blood, found on the phones?


For the same reason no one's DNA was found on the phones. The phones eother traveled by teleportation or were handled in such a way that DNA was not shed. Inconclusive.

Why was no glass found outside of the cottage?

Is this a fact? We have no photographic evidence of this right? So, this point can't be taken with the same grain of salt as Raf's shoe print matching footprints in Meredith's bedroom... something that was taken as fact until it was later proven wrong by Raf's sister, not law enforcement.

Why was no evidence of Rudy's presence found in Filomena's room?

For the same reason that no particular person's "presence" was found. Again, inconclusive.

Why was Raffaele's DNA in the 2nd highest concentration of all the traces found on the bra clasp?

Is the assertion here that when a DNA sample is found in higher concentration than other samples on the same item that it cancels out contamination?

How did Meredith's DNA arrive on the knife and if by contamination, why did Raffaele feel the need to write a fictional explanation (read: lie) for how it arrived there?[

It's widely believed that the DNA found on the knife was too low to be credible. You can write this off as for whatever reasons you have. But the fact is LCN DNA is not accepted everywhere, and rarely in the United States. It can best be described as "controversial". It's not just people who believe that Amanda and Rafaelle might be innocent who believe this. Barbie Nadeau, who leans strongly towards Amanda and Rafaelle being guilty, believes the knife should not have been admitted as evidence, and also has no problem stating in her book that Italian police-work was sloppy and that Stefanoni admitted in court that she made mistakes in her collection of evidence at the crime scene. The authors of "Darkness Descending" say the same thing. In fact, it's hard to find any source, outside of the Massei report, who believes the forensic evidence isn't seriously flawed. I have yet to read a book on the case or viewpoint of anyone in the fields of science who doesn't think the double DNA is highly questionable. If I am incorrect, please point me to any that think otherwise. As someone earlier pointed out, a scientist over at PMF also discounts the knife as credible evidence.

Misrepresentation of my arguments does not further your arguments. This is not the first time it's been done, and I'm sure it won't be the last.
 
I stand by my argument that we are unsure of when the Police were called. Neither side has proven their case on this issue. Your site presents no new evidence, nor any new argument on this issue and as such, I refuse to change my position that it's unknown.

Who knows, maybe the duo were taking a break in the garden before finishing cleaning up. Or maybe they figured they'd cleaned the bathroom/hallway well enough that they felt comfortable enough to call the police. I mean, there had to be some kind of evidence left in the bathroom or it would be overly suspicious.

In addition to my last post: You've been unable to prove that Rudy was ever in Filomena's room and that the footprint in the bathroom is Rudy's.

Some things are inconclusive. The footprint on the bathmat is inconclusive. There was a lack of DNA from anyone in Filomena's room. This means nothing at all.
 
Amanda's DNA was found in Filomena's room. Conveniently forgot that bit, I suppose.

Are you talking about the very weak sample that was found on the floor in the undated luminol stain?

That doesn't account for much. Amanda lived in the cottage. The rest of that floor wasn't tested. No controls were done.
 
Are you talking about the very weak sample that was found on the floor in the undated luminol stain?

That doesn't account for much. Amanda lived in the cottage. The rest of that floor wasn't tested. No controls were done.

So you admit that you were wrong when you claimed there was no DNA evidence found in Filomena's room?
 
That nothing was stolen supports that the burglary was interrupted.

It has the opposite affect on the staged breakin theory. If someone was going to stage a break in they would 'steal' something to make it look good


There's also the possibility that the burglary was staged ... badly.

Any number of discrepancies which seem to require such contortions of logic and verbiage and coincidence and conspiracy to explain away as innocence are much more easily resolved when viewed as the panicked and ill-considered actions of ... guilty ... young people.

Mary H has made much of her apparent puzzlement that the police might have had early suspicions concerning Knox and Sollecito. The term "intuition" has been bandied about here with a great deal of scorn, and not-so-sly references to the sort of red herrings that the OP tried to pass off are resurrected with depressing frequency, but the fact is that police are actually trained professionals, and observing and judging the behaviors (in the general sense of the term) of people close to a crime is not necessarily "intuition". It is also "experience".

Although the comparison may seem trite (it isn't) any parent is perfectly familiar with the experience of questioning their children and knowing ... with absolute certainty ... that the kids are hiding something, even though their protestations to the contrary are seemingly heartfelt and unequivocal. Certainly there are times when that parent is wrong, but the incidence of error pales by comparison to the number of times they are not.

Cops deal with victims, criminals, witnesses, and other less directly involved actors in real life crime dramas every work day.They are not only trained to judge people, scenes, and surrounding, they are practiced at it.

It is not unusual for perpetrators of a violent crime to try to create the appearance that some relative stranger was responsible. It's even a hackneyed plot device on the TV murder dramas. The problem is that the police, the trained experienced professionals, know that. Unlike most people who get their ideas about crime statistics from the TV, the police also know that stranger crimes are a relatively rare scenario for a violent murder such as this, in spite of what the news programs might lead people to think. 'Smash and grab' burglars just aren't usually violent rapist killers. Yes, there are exceptions, but the odds are way against it.

A break-in normally isn't going to look 'kinda sorta, almost like a break-in if you hold your head just right'. It's going to look like a 'fer shur' break-in.

Someone up-thread recently was trying to argue that Sollecito and Knox wouldn't have called the cops and shown them the break-in if it was staged. That's also not true. Someone who had tried to stage a break-in would likely do exactly that. They would want to insure that all the hard work they had devoted to their ploy was properly appreciated. Combine that with social proximity to the victim, conflicting, rapidly dis-proven and deteriorating accounts of activities during the time-line and there is plenty of quite reasonable cause for suspicion.

About the only foolproof way for them to have staged a break-in in Filomena's room and not raise suspicion would have been for them to really break in. They didn't do that, not only because they didn't have enough time or thought it would attract too much attention, a real burglar probably would have thought the same thing. They did because they thought they could make it look real anyway.

A real burglar would have also not chosen that room. The best reason for choosing that room is that it is the only one Knox could plausibly 'not notice' right away. There are just too many discrepancies, and trying to argue them away in detail doesn't work. Not only does it not work here, on a message board, it is also not what trained professionals would have done at the scene. They would have thought, "Something doesn't look quite right here.", and continued from that.

Amateurs would not have a clue what a real break-in scene would look like. Their efforts would look ... well, 'kinda sorta' like a break-in. If it was real we wouldn't be hypothesizing whether or not Rudy had the wall scaling skills of a free rock climber, the body strength and contortionist abilities of an Olympic gymnast, and a stick. We wouldn't be trying to claim that none of the window glass flew back from the window in spite of years of studies showing that it always does, or that trained professionals ignored the ground underneath the apparent entry point of a murder. We wouldn't be questioning whether or not a room was really "ransacked" when both the room's resident and one of the accused said it was.

There is a much simpler explanation.
 
So you admit that you were wrong when you claimed there was no DNA evidence found in Filomena's room?

Be an adult. This type of back and forth is useless. I said the results were inconclusive. I said the room was lacking DNA evidence. The weak sample for Amanda is not evidence of anything.
 
Be an adult. This type of back and forth is useless. I said the results were inconclusive. I said the room was lacking DNA evidence. The weak sample for Amanda is not evidence of anything.

Do you admit there was DNA evidence in the room? It's really a simple yes or no question. Be an adult and just answer the question ;)
 
Misrepresentation of my arguments does not further your arguments. This is not the first time it's been done, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

You asked questions. I answered them.
Your assertion that despite having the most incriminating evidence against him, Rudy is somehow innocent of the actions you listed above, is a fallacy. The areas of the crime scene that can't be directly attributed to Rudy you decide to fill in the blanks with Amanda and Rafaelle, not because it's impossible that Rudy would be the most obvious perpetrator, but because you believe Amanda and Rafaelle must have had something to do with the murder. Therefore, because no one's DNA was found on the cellphones you fill in the blank with Amanda and Rafelle. For some reason Rudy's DNA on Meredith's purse isn't reason to believe he rifled through it, so you again fill in the blank with Amanda and Rafaelle. Somebody had to lock the door. Who did it? Fill in the blank: Amanda and Rafaelle. This is what I perceived from your post and is the reason I answered your questions.

You listed the double DNA knife as evidence and I responded to that for obvious reasons. Whatever it had to do with your response to Bruce, the fact remains that outside of the judges, no one credible takes the knife as serious evidence of anything. Fulcanelli has listed Barbie Nadeau as someone who is credible. She doesn't believe the knife should have been admitted as evidence. Scientists on this board and PMF have strongly stated their reasons for believing likewise. Therefore I have reason to believe the same. When credible people from both sides of the argument agree on the same thing I have no reason to believe otherwise.
 
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