Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Sorry, I really can't see the police asking the girls where they had made the phone calls from, although I guess it's possible. If they did ask, it probably would only have been asked once, and at the time of the initial questioning, their answers might have matched and Amanda got mixed up later when she wrote her e-mail. During the initial interviews, the police were not suspicious of Amanda -- she had done nothing but help them out by pointing out the blood stains in the bathroom, giving them a tour of the cottage and answering their questions.

Wow. Just wow.

You really don't know how investigators think. They had personnel (different authorities) in place in someone's home when they discovered a body behind a locked door.

You had better believe that they wanted to know the exact whereabouts of everyone who lived there and exactly what they were doing from the time Meredith was last seen alive until the time they were there during the discovery of her body. That would absolutely include phone calls and written materials along with a pretty substantial database of witness statements.

This is one of the reasons I was very surprised to learn that they hadn't talked to Patrick before Amanda told them he was the killer. Or, at least, we haven't seen the evidence that they had. They may have but we just don't know about it.

I have no doubts that Amanda "got mixed up". If it turns out that Laura was asked into the Questura five times (as someone here claimed) then she was probably mixed up on a few details, too. The authorities couldn't reconcile all of Amanda's mix-ups but oddly Laura's resulted in no charges.

Why do you suppose the police asked Amanda to provide them with the tour instead of Laura or Filomena? And, IIRC, they had her provide a "tour" more than once.
 
Now now Stilicho, that was just because of the Inspectors' "intuitions", not because they were really suspicious of innocent-as-the-driven-snow Amanda.
 
Wow. Just wow.

You really don't know how investigators think. They had personnel (different authorities) in place in someone's home when they discovered a body behind a locked door.

You had better believe that they wanted to know the exact whereabouts of everyone who lived there and exactly what they were doing from the time Meredith was last seen alive until the time they were there during the discovery of her body. That would absolutely include phone calls and written materials along with a pretty substantial database of witness statements.

This is one of the reasons I was very surprised to learn that they hadn't talked to Patrick before Amanda told them he was the killer. Or, at least, we haven't seen the evidence that they had. They may have but we just don't know about it.

I have no doubts that Amanda "got mixed up". If it turns out that Laura was asked into the Questura five times (as someone here claimed) then she was probably mixed up on a few details, too. The authorities couldn't reconcile all of Amanda's mix-ups but oddly Laura's resulted in no charges.

Why do you suppose the police asked Amanda to provide them with the tour instead of Laura or Filomena? And, IIRC, they had her provide a "tour" more than once.

We don't know that they didn't ask Laura or Filomena to provide them with a tour. When I mentioned a tour, however, I was referring to the fact that when the Postal Police first arrived, Amanda and Raffaele took them in the house and showed them the suspicious circumstances.

We do know to a certain extent how those investigators were thinking, because they talked about it to the press. They thought one man had broken into the cottage and robbed, raped and killed Meredith. Something happened as the week went on that made them focus their attentions on Patrick, Amanda and Raffaele, but it does not appear to have been on the basis of anything Patrick, Amanda or Raffaele themselves did.

The example of the discrepancies between Amanda telling Filomena she called from the cottage versus telling her friends she called from Raffaele's is not effective. If the only evidence we have of the discrepancy follows from Filomena's trial testimony, then the police would not have been aware of it in the days following the murder; hence, it would not have raised their suspicions about Amanda. There is no way they saw what she had written in her e-mail until after she was arrested.
 
MaryH you are telling just so stories. It is not the only discrepancy. RS said Filomen's room door was open when he arrived at the cottage: AK said it was closed. That is just one more example. Do you honestly believe that Filomena did not give her account until she was on the stand? Do you think AK told the police something different than what was in her e-mail? Do you discount the police testimony that they were suspicious of the break in from the start. Do you think that police thinking does not change on the basis of such discrepancies?

It appears that you do. You do not accept anything which tends to cast suspicion on AK and RS. This is why you are not persuading anyone. Just so stories are not enough
 
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MaryH you are telling just so stories. It is not the only discrepancy. RS said Filomen's room door was open when he arrived at the cottage: AK said it was closed. That is just one more example. Do you honestly believe that Filomena did not give her account until she was on the stand? Do you think AK told the police something different than what was in her e-mail? Do you discount the police testimony that they were suspicious of the break in from the start. Do you think that police thinking does not change on the basis of such discrepancies?

It appears that you do. You do not accept anything which tends to cast suspicion on AK and RS. This is why you are not persuading anyone. Just so stories are not enough

I think that police thinking CAN change on the basis of such discrepancies, but in this case I don't think it did. These petty details seem significant to you guys because you're aware of them in hindsight and you're looking for any tiny fragment to support your accusations.

We don't have any evidence of the police being aware of them, though, nor of them being troubled by them or holding them against Amanda and Raffaele. The police were thinking in terms of a violent, vicious, male killer, not whether Filomena's door was closed when Amanda got to the cottage but open when Raffaele got there.

These are the kind of minutiae that can be turned into "evidence" later on if you're absolutely desperate, but witness statements about crimes are notoriously inconsistent and unreliable. I am sure the police took that fact into consideration, if they even cared.

After all, Giobbi didn't say they suspected Amanda because of the discrepancies you mentioned, he said they suspected her because she cried, wiggled her hips and went for pizza with Raffaele.

I don't doubt the police's suspicions about the break-in; I have even mentioned in these pages that I agree with the police's first impression that the break-in was staged.
 
Let me get this straight. You are saying that the police believed in lone male killer at the outset ( I do not see the evidence for that but ok). You are saying that they did not notice any of the discrepancies in the various accounts they were given in the course of the investigation. You are saying that there is no other kind of evidence which would lead them to another conclusion. You are saying that despite all of this they decided to hang this crime on AK, RS and Lumumba and then they went on to force RS and AK to make statements which implicated themselves and Lumumba. We do not know why they would wish to do this but they did and so they had exactly what they wanted. Then they changed their minds about Lumumba, again for no reason at all, and instead included Guede.

Against this there is the possibiliity that the police noticed that the break in appeared to be staged. They talked to the people most closely associated with Meredith and with the cottage with a view to getting detailed information about the events before and after the crime. Those accounts contained discrepancies, which they then attempted to reconcile through further interviews. In the course of one of those interviews RS changed his mind and said that AK was not with him at the time of the murder: and when confronted with that fact AK accused an innocent man of murder.

Clearly you find the first story more believable. Fair enough
 
Some of the folks who frequent JREF might be interested in this one, if you're not aware of it already:

The Amanda Knox Test: How an Hour on the Internet Beats a Year in the Courtroom

http://lesswrong.com/lw/1j7/the_amanda_knox_test_how_an_hour_on_the_internet/

Interesting...

I quickly scanned through it. Then stopped when the blogger in question just dismissed the knife and the bra clasp. Decided it wasn't worth my time of some smart alec is just going to discount evidence he/she doesn't like.
 
I have read it, yes. It is the purest example of scientistic windbaggery I have seen in a very long time
 
My point is, all posters to this thread, including myself, fail to have a real understanding of the law on suspects, witnesses, and admissibility in Italy in particular.

I agree, and that's why I don't know why "miscarriage of justice" is thrown around in regard to AK and RS.
 
We don't know that they didn't ask Laura or Filomena to provide them with a tour. When I mentioned a tour, however, I was referring to the fact that when the Postal Police first arrived, Amanda and Raffaele took them in the house and showed them the suspicious circumstances.

A key to the prosecution mind set is they presented Amanda and Raffaele showing the police the broken window, blood and locked doors as evidence that they staged the burglary.

Isn't showing the police why you called them is considered normal behavior?
 
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Hello

Hi everyone. I'm Dr. Mark Waterbury. I see my name being bandied about here, and also see my credentials impugned by a few of the usual posters. I rarely spend time in these forums because my main focus is on my upcoming book, but I do want to address some of this.

First, some try to disparage my credentials by calling me an "engineer" as if that were some kind of epithet. Although it is true that I have worked as a Senior Engineer at a major defense consulting firm and as CTO for a couple other places, my education, including Ph.D., was as a scientist in the field of materials science, a multi-disciplinary activity that touches on chemistry, physics and several other fields. I then worked for a number of years with the title of scientist for the United State's Air Force. I continue to do scientific work to this day.

Much of my research, both as an scientist as an engineer, was directed toward the development and implementation of new experimental methodologies. These have covered a wide range of areas, from the measurement of surface properties of microscopic fibers, to the emissivity of molten titanium levitated in a vacuum environment, to infrared fluorescent security tracers. In the course of developing new techniques, I learned a great deal about the limits of measuring systems, signal-to-noise ratios, and human issues. While writing my articles for Science Spheres, I reviewed what I wrote with both a molecular biology Ph.D. (these are the guys that invented DNA profiling) and with forensic DNA experts. Their corrections were invariably minor.

Many of the shortcomings in the experimental techniques employed by Dr. Stefanoni, for instance, have nothing to do with the particulars of STRs, matches, etc. There is nothing surprising whatsoever that the supposed knife trace matched Meredith's profile, for instance. The test was performed in a laboratory in which there were numerous samples of Meredith's DNA, on equipment that had been used to process her DNA. Sample contamination within a DNA profiling laboratory is a fact of life. The protocol she used on the knife blade has probably never been performed before, and likely never will be done again.

Although I do have access to the court documents, I certainly do not have authority to release them to the public at large, so am careful not to do so. It is also not a goal of mine, or even an interest, to engage in debate with those few people who's minds are long since made up, and the door closed to any reasonable information. That is why my time goes to writing articles and my book, not to participating in online debates. I generally let those articles speak for themselves.

It is true that I am now an active advocate for the release of Amanda and Raffaele, but that was not always so. I came into this case without prior knowledge or preconceived ideas. Evaluating the evidence, and primarily the stunning lack of evidence against either of them, has convinced me of their innocence, and compelled me to this advocacy. I have also never received a cent of compensation for my efforts.
 
Hi everyone. I'm Dr. Mark Waterbury.

Hello Dr. Waterbury. Welcome to the JREF.

Although I do have access to the court documents, I certainly do not have authority to release them to the public at large, so am careful not to do so.

Might I ask, are these same documents available to the public (for a fee) from the Perugia court?

It is true that I am now an active advocate for the release of Amanda and Raffaele, but that was not always so. I came into this case without prior knowledge or preconceived ideas. Evaluating the evidence, and primarily the stunning lack of evidence against either of them, has convinced me of their innocence, and compelled me to this advocacy. I have also never received a cent of compensation for my efforts.

Could you eleborate on your accusation that Rudy was an informant for Perugia law enforcement? Thanks.
 
Hi everyone. I'm Dr. Mark Waterbury. I see my name being bandied about here, and also see my credentials impugned by a few of the usual posters. I rarely spend time in these forums because my main focus is on my upcoming book, but I do want to address some of this.

First, some try to disparage my credentials by calling me an "engineer" as if that were some kind of epithet. Although it is true that I have worked as a Senior Engineer at a major defense consulting firm and as CTO for a couple other places, my education, including Ph.D., was as a scientist in the field of materials science, a multi-disciplinary activity that touches on chemistry, physics and several other fields. I then worked for a number of years with the title of scientist for the United State's Air Force. I continue to do scientific work to this day.

Much of my research, both as an scientist as an engineer, was directed toward the development and implementation of new experimental methodologies. These have covered a wide range of areas, from the measurement of surface properties of microscopic fibers, to the emissivity of molten titanium levitated in a vacuum environment, to infrared fluorescent security tracers. In the course of developing new techniques, I learned a great deal about the limits of measuring systems, signal-to-noise ratios, and human issues. While writing my articles for Science Spheres, I reviewed what I wrote with both a molecular biology Ph.D. (these are the guys that invented DNA profiling) and with forensic DNA experts. Their corrections were invariably minor.

Many of the shortcomings in the experimental techniques employed by Dr. Stefanoni, for instance, have nothing to do with the particulars of STRs, matches, etc. There is nothing surprising whatsoever that the supposed knife trace matched Meredith's profile, for instance. The test was performed in a laboratory in which there were numerous samples of Meredith's DNA, on equipment that had been used to process her DNA. Sample contamination within a DNA profiling laboratory is a fact of life. The protocol she used on the knife blade has probably never been performed before, and likely never will be done again.
Although I do have access to the court documents, I certainly do not have authority to release them to the public at large, so am careful not to do so. It is also not a goal of mine, or even an interest, to engage in debate with those few people who's minds are long since made up, and the door closed to any reasonable information. That is why my time goes to writing articles and my book, not to participating in online debates. I generally let those articles speak for themselves.

It is true that I am now an active advocate for the release of Amanda and Raffaele, but that was not always so. I came into this case without prior knowledge or preconceived ideas. Evaluating the evidence, and primarily the stunning lack of evidence against either of them, has convinced me of their innocence, and compelled me to this advocacy. I have also never received a cent of compensation for my efforts.

Evidence? What was this protocol? How sure are you it has never been done before and why will it never be used again?

Do you have any proof that the lab has a problem with contamination?
 
Hi everyone. I'm Dr. Mark Waterbury. I see my name being bandied about here, and also see my credentials impugned by a few of the usual posters. I rarely spend time in these forums because my main focus is on my upcoming book, but I do want to address some of this.

First, some try to disparage my credentials by calling me an "engineer" as if that were some kind of epithet. Although it is true that I have worked as a Senior Engineer at a major defense consulting firm and as CTO for a couple other places, my education, including Ph.D., was as a scientist in the field of materials science, a multi-disciplinary activity that touches on chemistry, physics and several other fields. I then worked for a number of years with the title of scientist for the United State's Air Force. I continue to do scientific work to this day.

Much of my research, both as an scientist as an engineer, was directed toward the development and implementation of new experimental methodologies. These have covered a wide range of areas, from the measurement of surface properties of microscopic fibers, to the emissivity of molten titanium levitated in a vacuum environment, to infrared fluorescent security tracers. In the course of developing new techniques, I learned a great deal about the limits of measuring systems, signal-to-noise ratios, and human issues. While writing my articles for Science Spheres, I reviewed what I wrote with both a molecular biology Ph.D. (these are the guys that invented DNA profiling) and with forensic DNA experts. Their corrections were invariably minor.

Many of the shortcomings in the experimental techniques employed by Dr. Stefanoni, for instance, have nothing to do with the particulars of STRs, matches, etc. There is nothing surprising whatsoever that the supposed knife trace matched Meredith's profile, for instance. The test was performed in a laboratory in which there were numerous samples of Meredith's DNA, on equipment that had been used to process her DNA. Sample contamination within a DNA profiling laboratory is a fact of life. The protocol she used on the knife blade has probably never been performed before, and likely never will be done again.

Although I do have access to the court documents, I certainly do not have authority to release them to the public at large, so am careful not to do so. It is also not a goal of mine, or even an interest, to engage in debate with those few people who's minds are long since made up, and the door closed to any reasonable information. That is why my time goes to writing articles and my book, not to participating in online debates. I generally let those articles speak for themselves.

It is true that I am now an active advocate for the release of Amanda and Raffaele, but that was not always so. I came into this case without prior knowledge or preconceived ideas. Evaluating the evidence, and primarily the stunning lack of evidence against either of them, has convinced me of their innocence, and compelled me to this advocacy. I have also never received a cent of compensation for my efforts.

A warm welcome and I hope that your stay in this forum will be an interesting one.

Like Alt+F4 I hope that you can elaborate a little on your accusation that Rudy was an informer and the chain of events that followed it.
 
While I won't get into tit-for-tat debates on any of this:

Stefanoni's knife technique, in a nutshell.

1. Extract a sample that is far too small to ever be tested again or validated in any way.

2. Run it through a profiling system.

3. When the system reports "Too Small" and rejects the sample as meaningless, second guess the designers of the equipment, fiddle with the knobs, and blow up the signal till you get a profile.

4. Declare guilt on the basis of an irreproducible experiment.

Cross contamination in DNA profiling labs is a well known, ongoing issue. I provide references to this in my articles.

There will be additional information about Rudy's work as an informant in both my articles and book, and in work from other sources. Plan on it.
 
While I won't get into tit-for-tat debates on any of this:

Stefanoni's knife technique, in a nutshell.

1. Extract a sample that is far too small to ever be tested again or validated in any way.

2. Run it through a profiling system.

3. When the system reports "Too Small" and rejects the sample as meaningless, second guess the designers of the equipment, fiddle with the knobs, and blow up the signal till you get a profile.

4. Declare guilt on the basis of an irreproducible experiment.

Cross contamination in DNA profiling labs is a well known, ongoing issue. I provide references to this in my articles.

There will be additional information about Rudy's work as an informant in both my articles and book, and in work from other sources. Plan on it.

So you have nothing new to add apart from some theory without proof, and that you are writing a book?
 
While I won't get into tit-for-tat debates on any of this:

Stefanoni's knife technique, in a nutshell.

1. Extract a sample that is far too small to ever be tested again or validated in any way.

2. Run it through a profiling system.

3. When the system reports "Too Small" and rejects the sample as meaningless, second guess the designers of the equipment, fiddle with the knobs, and blow up the signal till you get a profile.

4. Declare guilt on the basis of an irreproducible experiment.

Cross contamination in DNA profiling labs is a well known, ongoing issue. I provide references to this in my articles.

There will be additional information about Rudy's work as an informant in both my articles and book, and in work from other sources. Plan on it.

Do you have any proof she falsified her report or is this one of those "buy my book" deals.
 
Welcome Dr. Waterbury. I am interested in the story about Rudy as a police informant as well. To be quite honest I am getting information from one side that says it is pretty much "proven" while the other side tells me it is a load of rumor rubbish. I did enjoy your article, especially the lead in with the references to Sixth Sense and Psycho but I am not buying in to a conspiracy at this point. I would like to know that you are certain of your sources on this story and you are not being convinced to pass on rumor as fact.
 
In a possibly related post, Frank talks about Rudy's latest appeal to the Supreme Court and seems to give it some serious consideration in a new post at Perugia Shock. Is the fix in?
 
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