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Invitation to Derek Johnson to discuss his ideas

DC said:
1. Steel, not metal, steel needs alot energy to be molten, and i have troubles beliving the conditions at GZ were enough to do that. Other metals, sure, but not steel. and i mean really molten like in "rivers of molten steel" not just some yellow glowing steel profiles.

that would have been strange in my eyes. what would that mean?
i don't know. as a truther you look for everything that looks strange to you or confirms your opinion. I think you are right about themite not able to do it weeks after the collapse.

i also used the same video clips to "prove" molten steel has been spotted at GZ. Only because i believed it to be strange. without being able to answer what that means in detail.
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Thank you for your response. I've always been of the opinion that truthers used glowing metal beams to mean (very incorrectly) molten steel.

My own opinion is that there were tens of tons of metals that would "Flow in rivers" in the buildings (copper for example) well before the steel would and that there was, and is, no way to discern between the various metals or any combinations of them. This wasn't a controlled furnace or incinerator.

(did I mention that I used to run an incinerator at a waste water treatment plant burning off poop?)

It was a balancing act between keeping the poop as dry as possible through polymers and flow rates, the fuel oil usage as low as possible and the temperatures right in the range to dry out and burn the poop thoroughly in the lower hearths. God help you if the biology changes and the flocculates need more or less dissolved oxygen than what you have in the treatment process...

Closing out the incinerator for the week was not easy. Stopping the poop was easy. Shutting off the fuel for the burners was easy. Controlling the hearth temps after that was anything but easy. We stopped the rake arms to let the poop sit but the ignition point was a close call (as in 30 or less seconds from controlled to out of control, all of which was strictly a judgment call) We had a base level of not exceeding temp limits. 2,000F. Never met while I was there in 3+ years. I saw temps spike in the 2,400F range all of the time and 2,800F more than once. Trust me, we were shoveling the poop down out of the burn hearths as fast as we could.

And that was just poop, from people, at home, with no industrial base to change it. This is why I have no problem with the concept of paper (which burns much better than wet (18% dewatered poop on a very good day) raising temperatures inside the pile. If anything, I'd be questioning if the temps didn't go up quite a bit in the middle of the pile, even to the point of theoretically melting steel.
 
well im not so deep into the poop anymore :D

but i doubt GZ fires could reach 1400°C + for long enough to melt steel in big masses that would form "rivers of molten steel". alot Oxygen needed i would say.
 
Derek Johnson said:
There were first hand witnesses to molten metal seen in the WTC clean up site. Included in this witness group is University of California, Berkeley Civil and Environmental engineering professor Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E., who was the first scientist given access to the steel at ground zero. Dr. Astaneh-Asl referred to the WTC steel he found as "kind of melted." Years later, when asked again about his experience he clarified, "I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." As of this writing, there has not been a single reasonable or lucid explanation to address how this steel could have melted. Furnace blast conditions are difficult to achieve outside of a control volume, such as those within a cupola furnace.
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This is utterly incorrect. The eroded steel that Astaneh-Asl saw was the same steel that Barnett, Biederman, and Sisson studied. And NIST noted it. There was in fact a "reasonable" and "lucid" explanation to what was observed, and again, it wasn't melting. It was eutectic corrosion. This was established, and in fact published; I gave you the links earlier.

Furthermore, R.Mackey noted this to another truther who brought your exact same citation of Astaneh-Asl here over two years ago:
R.Mackey said:
Earlier tonight, I asked you to answer where Dr. Astaneh-Asl got his steel from. I was going to lead you gradually to an understanding, but it's taking too long and you won't enjoy it anyway, so I'll just say it. He got his steel by setting up shop near the steel recyclers. At the end of the salvage process. There's advantages to doing this, but you need to keep in mind that any steel he got was damaged while standing, damaged as the Pile burned, and subjected to the full chaos of recovery operations. There's no way whatsoever for Dr. Astaneh-Asl to disambiguate between "melting" suffered while the building stood, and "melting" afterwards. He didn't get to see it in place.​

But that's not where I wanted to lead you. The real question, the coup de grace, is this: "What happened to the steel after Dr. Astaneh-Asl handled it?" He's talking about all this "melted" and "vaporized" steel -- where is it? Can we see it?​

Indeed we can. Class, please open your books to NCSTAR1-3.​

The steel that you're talking about was turned over to NIST, where it was examined in detail, and reported on. With pictures. Now, Dr. Astaneh-Asl is a sharp guy, and we can learn a lot from him, but he's not a metallurgist, and he didn't examine the steel thoroughly.​

What you're working from are his initial comments. NIST did more, and found that, well, what do you know, it didn't melt after all. Or vaporize. Snicker.​

NIST instead does report on "melting," i.e. eutectic action, concluding it happened in the Pile fire and is not relevant in terms of understanding the collapses. Take a look for yourself. We already know this happens, because of Dr. Barnett and Dr. Biederman's work. No mysteries here except to the uneducated and misinformed. Your team.​

The only way for your ideas to make sense is if Dr. Astaneh-Asl's steel was different from the NIST steel. It isn't so. He didn't smuggle it home in a suitcase. Nor did NIST decide, in its evil power, to hide some of it so it could spin some alternate story, daring Dr. Astaneh-Asl to call them on it. Why would they? The temperatures involved in melting are actually not implausible, nor incompatible with the core NIST hypothesis. Vaporizing, well yeah, that's a poser, but that doesn't work for anybody's theory, except the space-beamers and nuke-huggers...​

Did this happen? Did NIST bury evidence? Why not ask him? Check this out, all you have to do is get Dr. Astaneh-Asl to say "those fiends! They stole the evidence! I had it in my hands!!" Ask him.​

He won't. You know how I know? Because he's read NIST cover to cover, like me, and he's been very critical of it. But he's never said that. Dr. Greening presented some of Dr. Astaneh-Asl's objections, and they bear some examination. He believes, possibly, the NIST Report was structured to deemphasize design flaws in the original structure. This could be true.​

"Melting" and vaporizing steel, not true.​
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For emphasis: Two years ago. And you're still trying to use his statement as support for molten steel?

That's two names you need to subtract from your cut & paste library: Drs. Jonathan Barnett and Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl.

Sam.I.Am said:
My own opinion is that there were tens of tons of metals that would "Flow in rivers" in the buildings (copper for example) well before the steel would and that there was, and is, no way to discern between the various metals or any combinations of them. This wasn't a controlled furnace or incinerator.
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This is something that gets conveniently ignored. Conspiracy peddlers keep talking about the steel, and it certainly is dominant in terms of amount. But it's not like there's thousands and thousands of tons of steel and a few ounces of everything else. People seem to ignore that the facades of the Twin Towers were aluminum. Not to mention that several hundred tons of aircraft-grade aluminum plus other metals were introduced at high speed on that day. Furthermore, wiring, plumbing, non-loadbearing structures (doorframes, etc.) were present, and we haven't even started talking about the sorts of things you normally find in an office environment: Electronics, furniture, etc. The amount of non ferrous metals available was not trivial. Far from it.

Sam.I.Am said:
(did I mention that I used to run an incinerator at a waste water treatment plant burning off poop?)
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Are you trying to imply something about your old job there and your current hobby here?
Smiley_EyebrowRaise.png


;)
 
I think you could calculate a theoretical max temperature of a combustion from the starting temperature of the reactants, their heat density/capacity, and the energy released by the burning.

A office fire would of course be a bit more complicated than e.g. a propane blowtorch in atmospheric air. :D
 
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Toke said:
I think you could calculate a max temperature of a combustion from the starting temperature of the reactants, their heat density/capacity, and the energy released by the burning.

A office fire would of course be a bit more complicated than e.g. a propane blowtorch in atmospheric air. :D
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Temperature is the equilibrium of heat generation and heat loss. Loss is via conduction, radiation and convection.

http://www.doctorfire.com/flametmp.html
 
Derek Johnson
....Structural steel has a thermal conductivity of 46 W/m/K, which means that any heat applied is easily wicked away.
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dafydd said:
What does ''wicked away'' mean?
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Derek means that before the collapse, steel exposed to heat stays cool, after the collapse steel exposed to heat melts.

.
 
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ElMondoHummus said:
This is utterly incorrect. The eroded steel that Astaneh-Asl saw was the same steel that Barnett, Biederman, and Sisson studied. And NIST noted it. There was in fact a "reasonable" and "lucid" explanation to what was observed, and again, it wasn't melting. It was eutectic corrosion. ....
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Cue Derek Johnson gleefully choosing the wrong end of the stick in 5,4,3....
 
DC said:
well im not so deep into the poop anymore :D

but i doubt GZ fires could reach 1400°C + for long enough to melt steel in big masses that would form "rivers of molten steel". alot Oxygen needed i would say.
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Yes. From the fire tchnician I quoted earlier in the thread (and dismissed by RedIbis as "some guy") :

There is fairly broad agreement in the fire science community that flashover is reached when the average upper gas temperature in the room exceeds about 600°C. Prior to that point, no generalizations should be made: There will be zones of 900°C flame temperatures, but wide spatial variations will be seen. Of interest, however, is the peak fire temperature normally associated with room fires. The peak value is governed by ventilation and fuel supply characteristics and so such values will form a wide frequency distribution. Of interest is the maximum value which is fairly regularly found. This value turns out to be around 1200°C, although a typical post-flashover room fire will more commonly be 900~1000°C. The time-temperature curve for the standard fire endurance test, goes up to 1260°C, but this is reached only in 8 hr
 
MikeW said:
Same as any other truther. It's an ego thing, a way to try and show he's far smarter than anyone else here.
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Posting "I'm much smarter than anyone here because I don't post in stupid threads" is self defeating.
 
Derek Johnson said:
Why wasn’t there any mention of WTC 7’s collapse in “The 9/11 Commission Report”?
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Derek:
Why do you think it should have been mentioned (Please keep in mind what the commission was tasked to study if you choose to answer). You might also add that they did not mention about 9 other buildings that were destroyed.
 
Toke said:
I think you could calculate a theoretical max temperature of a combustion from the starting temperature of the reactants, their heat density/capacity, and the energy released by the burning.

A office fire would of course be a bit more complicated than e.g. a propane blowtorch in atmospheric air. :D
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The theoretical maximum temperature is extraordinarily high. We know from NCSTAR1-5E, the controlled tests of multiple burning workstations, that in one experiment the gas temperature actually spiked over 1400oC and destroyed some of their sensors.

It is actually possible to get steel melting in this scenario, with no mythical nano-thermo-whatever at all. However, we expect episodes like this to be brief, and the actual amount of melted steel to be small to none.

"Ordinary" Class A fires are no joke.
 
Derek Johnson said:
One explanation offered to me by my friend and aerospace engineer Ryan is that International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) computer code or other security restrictions were the reason for NIST’s refusal to release the structural calculations or ANASYS FEA results that substantiate the walk-off failures of the girders on column 79 and 81 in WTC 7, in response to the FOIA. ITAR is control of exports, and US citizens are automatically allowed to do work on things under ITAR control.
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Derek....

Let me explain something to you about classifications of information....

When something is classified as "ITAR" it often (and I mean OFTEN) has other classifications as well....

These can include, but are not limited to....

FOUO
NOFORN
SECRET
TOP SECRET
PROPRIETARY


There are others but I am going to stop there.....

The bottom line is that if, in the interest on national security, it has been determined that "Derek Johnson" doesn't have a "NEED TO KNOW" and is not authorized to have the information......

Then guess what?

YOU AREN'T GOING TO GET IT.

That's how the real world works Derek.....people who have to deal with such classifcations every day at work really don't care about what a small minority of conspiracy theorists think, feel , or believe about ANYTHING.

Oh and for the last time....

If you don't think that I wouldn't be able to stop you from seeing something that was ITAR controlled and using that as justification.....you are very very mistaken.

I HAVE SEEN IT DONE IN REAL LIFE.

ITAR hardware, software, information, etc usually has additional classifications along with it.

So yeah...you are wrong....AGAIN.
 
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Sam.I.Am said:
What exactly is the supposed significance of the molten "Steel" in the weeks after the collapse supposed to mean? Seriously. That the temperatures in the pile were high? Nobody disputes this. That here were fires inside the pile from the 200 some odd acres of office supplies intermingled with the rubble? Nobody disputes this either. It doesn't prove anything at all other than that there were fires and that there was fuel for those fires. Therm*te burns off in minutes. Not hours, not days and most certainly not weeks. It does nothing at all to further your argument but it does make you look like you're grasping at straws at any cost.
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I think one of the possibilities they are implying is that the temperatures got so high from the thermite that it took weeks to cool to molten levels.

I think if things got that hot, we'd have had a "China syndrome" scenario.
 
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