How powerful is human immune system?

[ShareCures]

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I have done so, in the message to which you responded with this.

Your turn: cite a *single* poster here who has stated that the human immune system is incapable of eliminating pathogens, or admit that your claims to that effect were lies.
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Cite a single poster in the 18 pages that posted before you!
And before you try to demonize me I am not saying they have not, I am saying out of 18 pages I am unaware of any and therefore politely asked people if I missed someone. Go ahead and prove me a liar if you can.

 

[Paul2]

Paul2, do you care to learn how your immune response is capable of eliminating pathogens and disease even diseases said to be incurable by medicine?

I didn't think so, Nuff said.

Wrong. Unlike you, who specifically, exactly, and precisely said that "I don't care to understand," (post #702) I would be more than happy to learn anything true about my immune system.

Show us that you're happy to learn something.

 

[PixyMisa]

You're right about one thing. You do not know about bacteria testing. You could come and do my basic course for agriculture students, and then you'd know more than you do now.

He could watch Moyashimon and he'd know more than he does now.

 

[ShareCures]

Is there room for doubt in your claims? What makes your claims more or less doubtful than those of medicine?

When your clients come to you for a cure, are they also coming to you on blind faith?


But what if I accept medicine because it *has* worked for me? Is that any different than your clients accepting you because they feel your cures worked for them?

Did you make up your mind before talking to us? If so, how is your position any different than ours?

1) My claims are based on the fact that the body can eliminate all pathogens. The body does not consider one pathogen more resistant than another. Pathogens cannot hide from a working immune response. If an immune response isn't working it is the persons responsibility to correct it not anyone else.
2) No my clients to not come to me on blind faith. They come to me because they are honest and sincere. Some are desperate I do not deny that but for the most part they are honest enough to admit that my claims are much more reasonable than medicine's claims that it is their body attacking them. It doesn't take a lot for an honest sincere person to consider their own immune response as an option.
3) What works for you may not be good enough for others. Some people prefer a pill instead of doing a diet for two weeks because they cannot stop using alcohol. Some people think medicine works just fine as long as they can continue the alcohol without interruption. And then there are some people think medical treatment for the rest of there works for them. So if you are a person with asthma and inhalers work just fine for you, great. Some think it would be nice to actually be cured.

As for making up my mind before talking to you? I'm not sure what you are talking about. I posted here to see if anyone was willing to consider cures for diseases said to be incurable being possible through the human immune system and you can see the overwhelming opinion for 18 pages is NO.

 

[ShareCures]

Wrong. Unlike you, who specifically, exactly, and precisely said that "I don't care to understand," (post #702) I would be more than happy to learn anything true about my immune system.

Show us that you're happy to learn something.

Oh I've learned. I'm happy to learn. I learned that cures are not as important as wording or presentation. I learned that most people outside of this thread believe they can eliminate many or even most pathogens using their immune response. I learned that I am debating with people who refuse to admit what other outside my own thread here will admit.

I have also learned that I will not get the opportunity to share cures here.

 

[Jocce]

When medicine tells you your body is attacking itself and your body is winning and that is why they can't cure the body attacking itself and you believe it you stop right there. You stop looking for the truth. Once you are told there is no cure which you accept on blind faith you stop reasoning.

And yet you want me and others to accept your claims on faith alone? Faith in you, an anonymous person on an internet forum? Why would I do that? Please provide some evidence for you rather strong claims.

 

[Jocce]

I can however prove there are no incurable diseases and if we do have good flora or bacteria our immune response will recognize them as good.

By all means please do. I've been reading this thread for the first time today and if you have provided such proof, I sure can't find it.

 

[Jocce]

Whether you believe me or not you still have to make a choice. You know that you are have a great deal of trouble disputing my claims, do you completely disregard the logic and reasoning of my claims and suffer for a lifetime with your diseases or do you put a little more consideration into the human immune response?

I would be willing to put more consideration into it if you could only provide some evidence for your assertions. As I said before, you're an anonymous person on an internet forum. Why should I take your word for it? Especially when it is regarding my own health and wellbeing.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by ShareCures View Post
I'm not saying there are not good bacteria, just saying there is no real proof that there is.




Did they have a little sign on them saying, "I'm a good bacteria"? What where they doing that made them "good". Where they helping older bacteria digest their food?

If you do not mind, please keep it in laymen terms. Unlike medicine "cures" are not complicated and anyone can understand them. Please give us the honor of speaking in terms that a laymen can understand.

What where the bacteria doing when you saw them that made them good? If you use big fancy words that I don't understand you may fool others but you won't fool me.

Keep in mind however I am not saying there are or there aren't good bacteria.

Since this is also something I've worked with a lot. No, they do not have signs saying 'I am a good bacterium'. Any more than that mushrooms have signs saying 'I am good to eat' or 'I am poisonous'. Yet somehow we know which ones to eat.
The process trough which people come to such knowledge is called experimentation and observation.
Stool samples taken from healthy persons show which bacteria are present in the gut at that time. This is how we know what an average person should have in a given region. The reason our bodies allow them in the gut is that they are capable of breaking down certain compounds that our bodies cannot do themselves. The waste products they secrete are compounds our bodies can use and are absorbed through the gut. At the same time their sheer numbers generally prevent random opportunistic bacteria whose waste products would be toxic from proliferating in our gut.
The actual immune system has very little to do with this, as its active components do not actally enter the gut. It just prevents the bacteria existing there from getting into the rest of the body as that would be dangerous or fatal.

You continually replenish the bacteria living there as you eat and drink since everything you touch is still covered in bacteria. If you did not do so you would rapidly become sick as you'd lose the ability to digest food effectively.

This is also the reason you get temporarily sick when you go to a region that has a different set of bacteria, generally a different temperature/food culture. As the old bacteria are washed away and replaced by the new set there is a moment during which you both lose the ability to digest correctly and some of the protection against opportunists. This fun period is generally spent on the loo of your hotel for a few days.

Good bacteria by the way is a phrase invented by advertisers, it has no scientific value what so ever. All species are just bacteria. Your gut flora might do no harm when contained inside the specialized compartment, but if they manage to enter the bloodstream in sufficient numbers you'd die in short order.

 

[Jocce]

What the masses here wish to avoid is the fact that we have been designed to eliminate all pathogens and diseases since the beginning of man and today's medical opinions and theories have no relevance in regards to the body's ability to cure diseases said to be incurable.

I have to object to the pretty sloppy use of "fact" unless of course, you can back it up with evidence of some kind.

 

[Jocce]

Let me tell you. When people come to me for a cure most of them leave with a cure and I don't give them anything, plug them in to anything or give them a life long diet change.

How do I know when you show no evidence or even try to describe your method?

So with that being said what do you think is taking place if it is not the person's own immune response engaging? Do you think it is a miracle cure? If so do you recommend I slap my clients on the forehead and say "you is healed"?

For all I know you might be lying. You show no evidence, describe no methods and you are an anonymous person on an internet forum. Why should I trust you?

 

[Jocce]

How many of you believe the human immune system is capable of effectively dealing with many pathogens.

<hand up>

 

[Jocce]

There is only one proof and that is personal experience. If the Harvard Medical School endorsed my claim it still wouldn't be proof. The only proof is personal experience.

Self delusion is common so I wouldn't trust my own reaction to any previously unknown phenomena. Within science, repeatability and suitable controls are pretty effective ways of providing proof. Bottom line is, I don't trust you befoore you show me some evidence that you're right. Results and methods so it is repeatable.

 

[Agatha]

Like devnull, I have Crohn's disease. I also have arthritis so severe it's put me in a wheelchair, despite the fact that 18 months ago I was very active (brown belt in karate, running regularly).

Can you cure me? What do I have to do?

 

[Tatyana]

Antibody generation is part of a secondary immune response showing the immune system is failing. A healthy autoimmune will not require an antibody generation which doesn't really matter because none of this is relevant in regards to the body curing itself.

As I have made it clear there is no need for modern science, technology or medicine when it comes to the body's natural ability to cure any and all diseases. So if you would like to spit hairs for the sake of something to do, please see if there is someone else with more time on their hands.

Interesting that you say that the acquired immune system is shows that the immune system is failing.

How do you explain IgA (immunoglobulin A)?

What exactly do the antibodies do in the immune response?

So what immune responses are involved in the primary response?

 

[Jocce]

1) My claims are based on the fact that the body can eliminate all pathogens. The body does not consider one pathogen more resistant than another. Pathogens cannot hide from a working immune response. If an immune response isn't working it is the persons responsibility to correct it not anyone else.

This is not a base for your claims, or any kind of evidence for them. It's a summary of some of your claims.

2) No my clients to not come to me on blind faith. They come to me because they are honest and sincere. Some are desperate I do not deny that but for the most part they are honest enough to admit that my claims are much more reasonable than medicine's claims that it is their body attacking them. It doesn't take a lot for an honest sincere person to consider their own immune response as an option.

Why, in what way (see bolded)? You still haven't provided any evidence for your claims.

Some think it would be nice to actually be cured.

This is somewhat of an understatement. Everyone would prefer to be cured, I'm sure.

I posted here to see if anyone was willing to consider cures for diseases said to be incurable being possible through the human immune system and you can see the overwhelming opinion for 18 pages is NO.

Over 18 pages I have seen no evidence that you are correct in your claims but I would be willing to consider it if you could only provide some meat to the beef.

 

[Tatyana]

I thought that was the case. It lets you off the hook.

Just like in humans, pets and livestock do not need what you call vaccinations. Tatyana also believes the immune response can't engage without medical raciness but that is all a lie. The immune response is 100% responsible for us being here right now. If it were not for our immune response being completely whole and independent from medicine man would have gone extinct a long time ago.

Vaccines are seldom used on livestock only when improper farming or ranching has been an issue.

D-worming is more than sufficient for keeping livestock disease free and healthy. This is most likely do to the fact that a body d-wormed is not only toxic enough to kill worms it is also toxic enough to kill most other pathogens. Ivermectin will likely be strong enough to cure any bacteria or virus if there is such a thing as a virus.

I never said that.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm not saying there are not good bacteria, just saying there is no real proof that there is.

Did they have a little sign on them saying, "I'm a good bacteria"? What where they doing that made them "good". Where they helping older bacteria digest their food?

If you do not mind, please keep it in laymen terms. Unlike medicine "cures" are not complicated and anyone can understand them. Please give us the honor of speaking in terms that a laymen can understand.

What where the bacteria doing when you saw them that made them good? If you use big fancy words that I don't understand you may fool others but you won't fool me.

Keep in mind however I am not saying there are or there aren't good bacteria.

For the benefit of those in this thread who actually want to understand, these bacteria I listed are what you will find in the intestines of healthy cats and dogs. When these bacteria are damaged, usually by food toxins, the animal is no longer healthy, and the bacteria can no longer be found in the intestine. You may find little or nothing, or you may find other things, and the animal will be sick.

If you keep checking on what bacteria are in the intestine while the animal is recovering, you find that return to clinical normality coincides with restoration of the normal commensal bowel flora.

Rolfe.

 

[devnull]

Like devnull, I have Crohn's disease. I also have arthritis so severe it's put me in a wheelchair, despite the fact that 18 months ago I was very active (brown belt in karate, running regularly).

Can you cure me? What do I have to do?

Yeh, aint the arthritis a bitch? My left knee is killing me.

Maybe I can come pull on your arm??

Seriously tho, hoping the gastros put me on Humira tomorrow - wish me luck.

 

[Rolfe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerase_chain_reaction

A PCR test does not detect viruses either. That is a common misconception. It is said to detect DNA. Mostly it is a lot of medical mumbo jumbo used to misdirect medical patients.

How do you know PCR doesn't detect viruses, and this is a "common misconception"?

PCR techiques detect nucleic acid. The probes used are designed to detect particular nucleic acid sequences that are specific to the pathogen in question. In my work we use PCR to detect pathogens on a regular basis. The work is done in the next room but one to my office. There is a complex system of standards and checking and quality control to ensure that what is being detected is indeed the pathogen we're looking for.

Just because ShareCures doesn't understand it doesn't make it mumbo jumbo. It's a highly sophisticated scientific technique that yields robust and reliable results.

Rolfe.