Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Charlie Wilkes]

Amazer writes:

He quite clearly says that if you take look at each issue in isolation that an attack by a single person cannot be ruled out.

Indeed that is what he says. After a trial that lasted most of a year, he doesn't know whether Meredith was attacked by one person or several. And having duly noted his confusion on this point, he pronounces the defendants guilty and sentences them to 25 years in prison.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Amazer writes:

He quite clearly says that if you take look at each issue in isolation that an attack by a single person cannot be ruled out.

Indeed that is what he says. After a trial that lasted most of a year, he doesn't know whether Meredith was attacked by one person or several. And having duly noted his confusion on this point, he pronounces the defendants guilty and sentences them to 25 years in prison.

ETA: Confirmation bias much?


What's the rest of Massei's statement say?

 

[Amazer]

Amazer writes:

He quite clearly says that if you take look at each issue in isolation that an attack by a single person cannot be ruled out.

Indeed that is what he says. After a trial that lasted most of a year, he doesn't know whether Meredith was attacked by one person or several. And having duly noted his confusion on this point, he pronounces the defendants guilty and sentences them to 25 years in prison.

And it is disappointing that you feel the need to give such a creative reading to Massei's judgement. Because I have the feeling that you do know better.

 

[stilicho]

They have no obligation to tell you according to the law and people have no obligation to donate if they don't agree with the cause or have concerns with the lack of disclosure.

If you have information they are not using the money they are raising in accordance with the RCW, contact Rob McKenna, Attorney General for the State of Washington

Thanks for the tip.

 

[Mary_H]

Money

May I ask what difference it would make if those who write in support of Amanda were paid for their work?

 

[lector]

Nobody pays me for anything I do in connection with this case. If I can help get these innocent young people out of prison, that will be enough.

Fiona writes:

I think the problem is that nothing is certain in this case.

Circumstantial cases never allow for certainty in a mathematical sense, but this one is as clear as they get. It's just that the evidence points to a theory that is 180 degrees from what the authorities announced to the public on November 6, 2007. So they have done their utmost to suggest that the evidence is less clear than it really is, and they have put an incriminating spin on certain forensic data, like luminol footprints and mixed DNA, that has no plausible connection to the crime.

The evidence shows that a single assailant grabbed Meredith from behind, clapped his left hand over her mouth and gripped her face so tightly his fingers left bruises on her jaw and neck. He threw her to the floor in front of her wardrobe, face down, and stabbed her in the right side of her neck with a knife held in his right hand. She twisted around to try to defend herself, at which point he inflicted a huge cutting wound in the left side of her neck. When she was unconscious or dead, he moved her a few feet to the spot where she was found.

Even Massei was forced to admit that the injuries and the crime scene were consistent with an attack by one person. In the crime scene photos from December 18, you can see numbers next to some of the blood drops. That means they used a well-known methodology to trace those blood drops back to a point of origin. They figured out what happened. But by the time they did, they had invested their reputation in a fable that never made any sense and is wholly inconsistent with the evidence.

Here is a quick overview of what the bloodstains and injuries show:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/bloodstain_pattern_analysis.html

Ok, so, what Massei actually was stating is that a single assailant could not be ruled out automatically. That is not equivalent to claiming that Massei agreed that there was only one assailant.

The conviction of these two, in addition to Rudy, quite elaborately exhibits that Massei very much felt the evidence pointed more strongly to multiple assailants.

As Fiona has pointed out, time and again, just because something can happen doesn't mean that's what most likely or did happen.
You are being disingenuous as well, Charlie Wilkes.


Why, oh why, if Amanda and Raffaele are so innocent must their defenders play such twisting of words to defend the duo?

This stuff gets to the heart of one of the few issues in this case that still interest me - the forensics that reportedly show that three, rather than one, persons committed this assault. Much, to my mind, hangs on that point.

Charlie that FOA page you linked is peculiar & doesn't illustrate anything to me. There's no context. Where did those images (other than the crime scene photo) come from? Who created them? What are they supposed to show? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Mary_H]

.
I quite agree, Mary.

Somewhere I made a mental note that you had said you had studied in university with poster Skeptical Bystander. Can you confirm that, or are my mental notes shuffled?

I don't completely agree with the idea of bringing discussions from one blog to another, but I can see this has engendered some controversy so I will try to put it to rest.

Your mental notes are a little bit shuffled. When I mentioned having known Skeptical Bystander, I very carefully and intentionally worded my comment to reflect reality. That is, I said I knew Skeptical Bystander when SHE was in graduate school at the University of Washington. Knowing that the guilters would give my comment the fleeting reading they give everything and then misinterpret it, this was my way of having fun with them.

Does that help?

The year, I think, was 1985. I was not attending classes at the University of Washington at the time. The population of Seattle was at the time and remains approximately 600,000 people. Good luck!

 

[John Albert]

Wow, what a crazy thread. Thanks to all who participated in making this such a great read!

I don't know what to think about this case. Certainly, the Italian criminal justice system leaves a lot to be desired. Here I was, thinking the US legal system was susceptible to corruption by the media!

Seems quite far-fetched, to believe this horny young college girl and her dopey Italian boyfriend conspired to murder her roommate over sex. Then again, Amanda Knox wouldn't be the first young American to get railroaded in another country's courts for acting out like a stereotypical ugly American jackass.

I doubt we'll ever really know what happened in this case. There's certainly a lot more to the story than we're hearing, and a good bit of what we have heard sounds a lot like utter B.S. All the original media sources are highly suspect, all the convicts and their families appear somewhat less than trustworthy, and the few uninvolved witnesses are strikingly unreliable.

If you have to take anything away from this story, always remember when visiting a foreign country to be on your best behavior, mind the local customs, and above all, respect the local authorities!

 

[Bruce Fischer]

It would be nice to have the evidence in place. I wasn't surprised to see a couple of Frank's own comments removed from his own blog "by the administrator". They aren't even that incriminating.

I simply have to ask: Why all the secrecy? Do they really think Frank's multitude of adoring fans will suddenly abandon him if they know he's being compensated?

We haven't even mentioned Anne Bremner yet and we know she's being paid for her opinion. But that's (probably) the firm's expenses and not the advocacy group's.

I wonder who has first claim at money collected through contributions.

Anne is not being paid for her services.

If you have read Frank's blog lately then you are well aware that he is independent.

You are trying way to hard to figure this out. Why is it so hard to imagine that people actually want to help Amanda and Raffaele?

Many people feel that an injustice has occurred.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

They still have to keep books and clear cheques through actual banks. How about this? Who are the signing officers for Amanda Defence Fund? That might be an easier question to answer.

@HumanityBlues: I was unaware that Anne Bremner said she worked for free. I think we're back to the whole Johnson/Hampikian issue again. If she is working for free can she at least acknowledge she was engaged by "XYZ" to speak publicly on behalf of Amanda?

With all the secrecy shrouding the advocates and their connections you'd think this was the Manhattan Project.

You create the myth that all of this secrecy exists. You can't possibly imagine that all of these people would stand up to support Amanda and Raffaele so I think in your mind you have to try and connect them all together.

By the time the appeal starts, the number of supporters will be larger. They will continue to be volunteer efforts.

 

[slow lurker]

Bruce Fisher,
Please post that promised diagram of the wall and window showing how Rudy could easily reach the window and open it. That and a link to the latch type used on the window.

Thanks

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Certainly, the Italian criminal justice system leaves a lot to be desired. Here I was, thinking the US legal system was susceptible to corruption by the media!

What would you like changed about the Italian Justice System?

Do you have evidence that the media influenced this trial?


I'd argue that what little we've seen of the reasoning behind the verdict is well thought out and based on the evidence as presented by both sides.

 

[Mary_H]

Or accuse the cops of being motivated by sexual attraction.

shuttlt, after giving the matter some thought, I have decided to grace you and stilicho with the evidence I used to decide that the Perugian police and prosecutor were sexually attracted to Amanda.

First, I was able to establish attraction by closely observing the investigators' psychological and behavioral reactions during the investigation. I didn't need to rely on other kinds of investigation as this method has enabled me to get to conclusions in a very quick time.

Over the weekend, I read the history of modern Italy. Lo and behold, statistics show that some men in Perugia bring lovers home, some live in homes with pink bunny vibrators and some have had sex in trains. Some are even looking for intense experiences.

From this I was able to deduce that sex ruled their lives. Under the circumstances, it was impossible to imagine that they would not have been attracted to Amanda.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

shuttlt, after giving the matter some thought, I have decided to grace you and stilicho with the evidence I used to decide that the Perugian police and prosecutor were sexually attracted to Amanda.

First, I was able to establish attraction by closely observing the investigators' psychological and behavioral reactions during the investigation. I didn't need to rely on other kinds of investigation as this method has enabled me to get to conclusions in a very quick time.

Over the weekend, I read the history of modern Italy. Lo and behold, statistics show that some men in Perugia bring lovers home, some live in homes with pink bunny vibrators and some have had sex in trains. Some are even looking for intense experiences.

From this I was able to deduce that sex ruled their lives. Under the circumstances, it was impossible to imagine that they would not have been attracted to Amanda.

You're kidding, right? I mean, really, kidding...

This is your evidence?

Again, we're faced with generalizations and nothing pertaining specifically to this case. If we were to accept all the generalizations required of the Free Amanda crowd:

1) DNA would no longer be a useful tool for evidence

2) Attractive women in Italy are more likely to go to prison for murder

3) Bleach erases all traces of DNA - except when in the Lab


ETA: And even if we were to allow that it's not just mere generalizations, this is nothing more than your personal opinion based on hearsay. What research have you actually done into this matter?

 

[Juror]

Thanks for the tip.

Not a problem. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Mary_H]

You're kidding, right? I mean, really, kidding...

This is your evidence?

Again, we're faced with generalizations and nothing pertaining specifically to this case. If we were to accept all the generalizations required of the Free Amanda crowd:

1) DNA would no longer be a useful tool for evidence

2) Attractive women in Italy are more likely to go to prison for murder

3) Bleach erases all traces of DNA - except when in the Lab


ETA: And even if we were to allow that it's not just mere generalizations, this is nothing more than your personal opinion based on hearsay. What research have you actually done into this matter?

What does DNA have to do with it?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Bruce Fisher,
Please post that promised diagram of the wall and window showing how Rudy could easily reach the window and open it. That and a link to the latch type used on the window.

Thanks

I will post this soon. I will have it Tomorrow or Wednesday. I have been extremely busy. I have it all calculated out on paper. I have photos of the latch. I will post that also. Rudy would have been able to reach about 8 inches above the latch.

 

[Amazer]

shuttlt, after giving the matter some thought, I have decided to grace you and stilicho with the evidence I used to decide that the Perugian police and prosecutor were sexually attracted to Amanda.

First, I was able to establish attraction by closely observing the investigators' psychological and behavioral reactions during the investigation. I didn't need to rely on other kinds of investigation as this method has enabled me to get to conclusions in a very quick time.

Over the weekend, I read the history of modern Italy. Lo and behold, statistics show that some men in Perugia bring lovers home, some live in homes with pink bunny vibrators and some have had sex in trains. Some are even looking for intense experiences.

From this I was able to deduce that sex ruled their lives. Under the circumstances, it was impossible to imagine that they would not have been attracted to Amanda.

Just by looking/studying the investigators psychological and behavioral reactions you have been able to reach your conclusion? Don't you think it's strange that no one else picked up on that? Perhaps you should consider that your powers of observation are somewhat of the mark here?

Then the 'statistics' (and I use that term loosely) that you claim to have seen would apply equally to the rest of world to (okay, maybe not the pink bunny vibrators, but still). This however in no way establishes that Perugian men would have been attracted to Amanda.

Mary, your theory as it is needs a lot more before I will consider it seriously.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

lector wrote:

Charlie that FOA page you linked is peculiar & doesn't illustrate anything to me. There's no context. Where did those images (other than the crime scene photo) come from? Who created them? What are they supposed to show? It doesn't make sense to me.

The images are from a document prepared by the scientific police. They used the technique Lee describes to trace the blood droplets back to a point of origin, just a foot or so above the floor. If the victim had been surrounded by attackers, their presence would have interfered with the spray of blood droplets on the wardrobe doors. And there were blood droplets on the floor surrounding the spot where she was killed:

www.friendsofamanda.org/bloodstain_pattern.jpg

You can see a couple of rectangular spots where books were lying on the floor. Otherwise nothing interfered with the distribution of blood droplets. She had a single attacker on top of her. There were also round blood droplets on her exposed breasts, which means she was on her back when she bled to death, not kneeling as the prosecution tried to claim.

This is why Massei has had to take refuge in vagaries, suggesting that, well, yes, it's true that a single attacker cannot be excluded. It's as though I run a stop sign and T-bone someone at an intersection, and when the insurance adjuster calls, I say, "well, yes, it's true that the damage to the other vehicle doesn't exclude the possibility that I ran the stop sign."

 

[RWVBWL]

Too funny Mary H!!!

"shuttlt, after giving the matter some thought, I have decided to grace you and stilicho with the evidence I used to decide that the Perugian police and prosecutor were sexually attracted to Amanda.

First, I was able to establish attraction by closely observing the investigators' psychological and behavioral reactions during the investigation. I didn't need to rely on other kinds of investigation as this method has enabled me to get to conclusions in a very quick time."

Thanks for the laugh,
RWVBWL