Noah's Ark found?

[kerikiwi]

Yes and no.
The description in the book is very rudimentary but we can point out that all of the largest wooden vessels were suffering structural integrity problem. They were leaking very severely and required a constant pumping out of the water.
And that's with them being the product of hundred of years of nautical engineering and using techniques such as steel reinforcements that would not have been available to Noah.
And the alleged ark is even larger and would have floated on even worse water, so, on face value, it seems very unlikely that such a vessel could have been made seaworthy.

All of which largest vessels?
There is only one mentioned in genesis and the description given does not allow for any assessment of seaworthiness.
As I pointed out, it is only by adding details which are not given in genesis that seaworthiness can be assessed. Which is exactly what you just did by referring to vessels built long after.
Hence it is silly to debate whether or not the ark was seaworthy. We do not and cannot know.We can, of course, debate whether other boats could be seaworthy, but they would not be the ark.

 

[Ladewig]

All of which largest vessels?
There is only one mentioned in genesis and the description given does not allow for any assessment of seaworthiness.
As I pointed out, it is only by adding details which are not given in genesis that seaworthiness can be assessed. Which is exactly what you just did by referring to vessels built long after.
Hence it is silly to debate whether or not the ark was seaworthy. We do not and cannot know.We can, of course, debate whether other boats could be seaworthy, but they would not be the ark.

You are right that only two details are mentioned (it was all wood and the dimensions were 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high), but those two details are all that is needed to concluded that it was not seaworthy. It is impossible to build an ocean-going, all-wooden boat that is 450 feet long. It makes no difference if the keel is curved or straight, it makes no difference if the bow has a curve or a reverse curve, it makes no difference if the stern is square or tapered - it is impossible to build a an ocean-going, all-wooden boat that is 450 feet long. Therefore any wooden boat with the ark's dimensions is not seaworthy.

 

[Simon39759]

You are right that only two details are mentioned (it was all wood and the dimensions were 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high), but those two details are all that is needed to concluded that it was not seaworthy. It is impossible to build an ocean-going, all-wooden boat that is 450 feet long. It makes no difference if the keel is curved or straight, it makes no difference if the bow has a curve or a reverse curve, it makes no difference if the stern is square or tapered - it is impossible to build a an ocean-going, all-wooden boat that is 450 feet long. Therefore any wooden boat with the ark's dimensions is not seaworthy.

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make.
The description in Genesis is very insufficient and pretty much limited to the ark's dimension.
However, from what we know of real wooden ship, just these dimensions are enough to cast very serious doubt on the seaworthiness the ark would be able to achieve...


Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time around.

 

[Robin]

what is this the spanish inquisition.

No, it is clarifying an answer I did not understand.

I already answered that its allegorical.

No, you replied that it was allegorical "unless ..." And I already specified the clarification I was seeking

Please try to follow this conversation we just took part in

OK, but let's put back in the part you left out - the part that confused me - and follow it, OK?

do you regard it as intended to be factual? Or intended to by allegorical?

my reply

Its allegorical , unless you really believe that Satan and YHWH exist (not good news for christianity) and that one day they sat down and had a conversation about faith

I don't understand that "you" and who it refers to. Surely the only relevant question was whether the writer/writers believed that the events really happened.

So I ask the same question, emphasising the operative word:

But you are not addressing the question - are they intended to be factual or allegorical?

In other words did the original writers believe that these were events that actually happened?

Did you really need me to add "its intended to be" in there before you accepted my answer

Well obviously, yes, since I asked for the clarification then I could not understand your answer until you gave the clarification - was it intended to be allegorical?

 

[steve s]

Furthermore, Jesus referred to Adam, Noah and the flood as real historiucal events with such phrases as "in the days of Noah"
"just as in Noah's day"

Of course he would have. Those are the stories he grew up reading about. He would have taken them literally just like you do.

BTW
Archeologists have found evidence of a great cataclysm in the area where Sodom and Gommorah weree located.

You don't suppose it could have anything to do with the fact that the area sits on a major earthquake fault zone?



As for the flat earth, one passage that gives a very clear description of the earth being a flat circular disc is Job 38:14...

The earth takes shape like clay under a seal

Here's what a clay seal looks like. Clearly a flat 2-dimensional shape as opposed to a 3-dimensional one.



Steve S

 

[kerikiwi]

As for the flat earth, one passage that gives a very clear description of the earth being a flat circular disc is Job 38:14...



Here's what a clay seal looks like. Clearly a flat 2-dimensional shape as opposed to a 3-dimensional one.

Just to be picky: a clay seal may be flat, but it is not two dimensional.
The quote could be read as an analogy to how the shape was formed, not what shape was formed.

 

[steve s]

Just to be picky: a clay seal may be flat, but it is not two dimensional.
The quote could be read as an analogy to how the shape was formed, not what shape was formed.

It's roughly 2-d, definitely not a sphere.

Steve S

 

[Foolmewunz]

Yet the results of the tests done on the ark models when placed under the stresses you mention speak otherewise.

Stop saying this! I will call you out every time you do so. There have been no such tests. Every link you gave refers to reports and papers. You keep saying that the tests prove otherwise.

SHOW US THE TESTS ON ACTUAL MODELS. The ridiculous claims you made earlier that these statements were in the two articles were tacitly proven false. There is no reference to any such model.

 

[tsig]

Stop saying this! I will call you out every time you do so. There have been no such tests. Every link you gave refers to reports and papers. You keep saying that the tests prove otherwise.

SHOW US THE TESTS ON ACTUAL MODELS. The ridiculous claims you made earlier that these statements were in the two articles were tacitly proven false. There is no reference to any such model.

I wasted a few minutes of my life reading those links looking for the models and all i saw was apologetics.

More lying for Jesus.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It also highlights something that never really occurred to me - what do believers think happened to the knowledge of shipbuilding gained by Noah's family during the ark's construction? Did God erase their memories before they restocked the world with human beings incapable of building large ocean-going wooden ships?

Probably the same thing as happened to the secret of how to make a Stradavarius violin.

I don't know what the old guild masters and artisans called it, but nowadays the term most often used is "proprietary."

If Noah believed God would not flood the world again, would he feel a necessity to preserve that particular bit of aracna as part of the aural tradition and family teaching?

Maybe yes, maybe no, and maybe after smoking all of that hemp (see my previous post on how (maybe) to try and hold an ark together), or drinking, he forgot.

DR

 

[Nonpareil]

Probably the same thing as happened to the secret of how to make a Stradavarius violin.

I don't know what the old guild masters and artisans called it, but nowadays the term most often used is "proprietary."

If Noah believed God would not flood the world again, would he feel a necessity to preserve that particular bit of aracna as part of the aural tradition and family teaching?

Maybe yes, maybe no, and maybe after smoking all of that hemp (see my previous post on how (maybe) to try and hold an ark together), or drinking, he forgot.

DR

So that's why every Final Fantasy game has the "Ancients" capable of building flying cities while the modern people can barely manage the crudest airships!

 

[Darth Rotor]

Perhaps we're not being literal enough.

I'm not sure how you can you make something waterproof from gopher wood, not even if it is in the morning and you have a whole bunch of them.

Caulking for the joints, and various forms of painting and finishing -- just like any other kind of wood.

I'd need to make sure I understand what you mean by waterproof, though, to make sure I was answering this query in context.

DR

 

[Meadmaker]

Probably the same thing as happened to the secret of how to make a Stradavarius violin.

I don't know what the old guild masters and artisans called it, but nowadays the term most often used is "proprietary."

If Noah believed God would not flood the world again, would he feel a necessity to preserve that particular bit of aracna as part of the aural tradition and family teaching?

Maybe yes, maybe no, and maybe after smoking all of that hemp (see my previous post on how (maybe) to try and hold an ark together), or drinking, he forgot.

DR

FWIW, I did enjoy hte hemp post.

 

[SOdhner]

Dear Radrook,

Earlier in this conversation you suggested that post-flood there was some sort of super-accelerated evolution to allow animals to adapt to whatever environments they ended up in and stuff. You said this was intended as a scientific theory and was not supposing a miracle.

I asked why, if this was the case, we don't see evolution working that fast now. Rather than answer, you made an unrelated criticism of modern evolutionary theory.

I pointed out that the validity of that has no relation to the validity of YOUR theory and asked again. You replied with the same unrelated comments.

I asked a third time, and you just never answered.

At this point I'm not expecting you to answer this fairly simple question about why your proposed theory doesn't match observed reality but I just wanted to point out that you seem to be interested in dodging the question rather than either answering it or admitting that you are wrong.

Hugs and kisses,
SOdhner

 

[Darth Rotor]

So that's why every Final Fantasy game has the "Ancients" capable of building flying cities while the modern people can barely manage the crudest airships!

If only those guys would have used something other than flayed virgins' hide for their blueprints, the rats wouldn't have eaten them, and we'd have floating cities too. Quelle bummer (but don't buy any land below a city, since they still flush the loo just like in any other city ... )

FWIW, I did enjoy hte hemp post.

We aim to please ...

 

[I Ratant]

Caulking for the joints, and various forms of painting and finishing -- just like any other kind of wood.

I'd need to make sure I understand what you mean by waterproof, though, to make sure I was answering this query in context.

DR

.
One must never do the "face palm" after a happy ending with morning wood.

 

[Darth Rotor]

.
One must never do the "face palm" after a happy ending with morning wood.

*Chuckle*

Field studies suggest that the bukaka glaze can mimic a sealant, but it won't waterproof much of anything.

DR

 

[Radrook]

Of course he would have. Those are the stories he grew up reading about. He would have taken them literally just like you do.



You don't suppose it could have anything to do with the fact that the area sits on a major earthquake fault zone?



As for the flat earth, one passage that gives a very clear description of the earth being a flat circular disc is Job 38:14...



Here's what a clay seal looks like. Clearly a flat 2-dimensional shape as opposed to a 3-dimensional one.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/81544bde5328724c7.jpg[/qimg]

Steve S

The Hebrew word used in that passage can also refer to a sphere. You prefer to think it refers to a flat disk.

The geography you mention doesn't disprove the events in relation to Sodom and Gommorah. That's tantamount to saying that the Noacchian Flood could not have happened the way it is described because Noah lived near water.

True. Jesus and the nation of Israel considered the accounts legitimate written history.

 

[Radrook]

And do you disagree with C.S Lewis and say that the intention of the temptation story was to portray real events?

And if so, do you believe that the intention of Genesis 1 was to accurately describe the creation of the world?

Yes to both. The intention was to describe real events.

 

[tsig]

The Hebrew word used in that passage can also refer to a sphere. You prefer to think it refers to a flat disk.

The geography you mention doesn't disprove the events in relation to Sodom and Gommorah. That's tantamount to saying that the Noacchian Flood could not have happened the way it is described because Noah lived near water.

True. Jesus and the nation of Israel considered the accounts legitimate written history.

Does your whole hope of salvation turn on the interpretation of a Hebrew word?