Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[HumanityBlues]

If you mean a handbag, I don't keep my keys in one when at home: I put them on the table when I get in. Many people I know do not keep their phone in their handbag at home, either: they put them within easy reach. I keep my credit card in my purse: but that is not a purse as americans use the word. Sometimes my purse is in my handbag and sometimes it is not when I am at home. I do not know what percentage of women do like I do and what percentage keep those things in their handbag when they are at home. So I cannot see that there is evidence to support this conclusion: though it may be correct

There is certainly evidence to support the conclusion. In this respect I disagree with you. On the other hand, you are correct in that the evidence is not a smoking gun. But there is circumstantial evidence to support it.

What do you think happened with the credit cards and money?

Edit: You could also alert BobtheDonkey that the cell phones might not have been in the handbag either.

 

[HumanityBlues]

They got tossed.

And, no, I'm not playing these guessing games, HB. You present that you have an alternate scenario, then provide it. If not, then you need to admit as such and withdraw your "common sense" statement.

Someone took her money and credit cards. Who do you think did?

 

[Fiona]

I assume whoever took the money spent it or kept it. Since there was no attempt to use the credit card I imagine it was tossed: which makes me wonder why it was taken in the first place. Not by a burglar, apparently. Not for gain. I do not know why. Maybe someone was staging a burglary?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Someone took her money and credit cards. Who do you think did?

Stop with the guessing games, HB. Or do I have to turn the evidence 90* to the right to figure this one out?

You have a scenario/point to make, so just make it already.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Stop with the guessing games, HB. Or do I have to turn the evidence 90* to the right to figure this one out?

You have a scenario/point to make, so just make it already.

I actually don't have a scenario, and I think Fiona made a good point that these items were not necessarily in the handbag. But that logic must also apply to the phones.

That being said, I still think the evidence is strong that Rudy took money and credit cards from the purse, but Fiona does have a point. But I think it's very likely that her money and credit cards were in there.

The only reason I'm asking you questions is because I wanted to know if you had a theory on the money, credit cards, and phones, and what happened to them, and who took them. Do you think it was Amanda and Raffaele?

 

[RWVBWL]

If you mean a handbag, I don't keep my keys in one when at home: I put them on the table when I get in. Many people I know do not keep their phone in their handbag at home, either: they put them within easy reach. I keep my credit card in my purse: but that is not a purse as americans use the word. Sometimes my purse is in my handbag and sometimes it is not when I am at home. I do not know what percentage of women do like I do and what percentage keep those things in their handbag when they are at home. So I cannot see that there is evidence to support this conclusion: though it may be correct

Hello Fiona,
My last girlfriend, a mom, always had her keys and cell phone on the big table in the apartment, and she kept the cash and her credit cards in her purse also. It would be easy to grab them on the way out.
RWVBWL

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I actually don't have a scenario, and I think Fiona made a good point that these items were not necessarily in the handbag. But that logic must also apply to the phones.

That being said, I still think the evidence is strong that Rudy took money and credit cards from the purse, but Fiona does have a point. But I think it's very likely that her money and credit cards were in there.

The only reason I'm asking you questions is because I wanted to know if you had a theory on the money, credit cards, and phones, and what happened to them, and who took them. Do you think it was Amanda and Raffaele?

I'm not disinclined to a scenario that has Rudy taking the money/credit cards after murdering Meredith. I agree that he'd be panicking and looking for means to flee Perugia. However, that is purely speculation as we have nothing more than bloody fingerprints on a purse. Were the contents of the purse dumped out before the Polizia arrived the next morning?

I don't believe he had anything to do with the phones. There were no traces of his DNA, nor of Meredith's blood on the phones.

 

[HumanityBlues]

I'm not disinclined to a scenario that has Rudy taking the money/credit cards after murdering Meredith. I agree that he'd be panicking and looking for means to flee Perugia. However, that is purely speculation as we have nothing more than bloody fingerprints on a purse. Were the contents of the purse dumped out before the Polizia arrived the next morning?

I don't believe he had anything to do with the phones. There were no traces of his DNA, nor of Meredith's blood on the phones.

Ok. That is a good question about the state of the purse and how it was found inside the crime scene. Someone could probably elaborate on that.

So you think it was Amanda or Raffaele that tossed the phones? Rudy had to clean off his hands at some point right? I'm just trying to clarify here, not any sort of 90degrees trick.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Ok. That is a good question about the state of the purse and how it was found inside the crime scene. Someone could probably elaborate on that.

So you think it was Amanda or Raffaele that tossed the phones? Rudy had to clean off his hands at some point right? I'm just trying to clarify here, not any sort of 90degrees trick.

Were there any fingerprints/bloody hand prints on the front door? If not, would it be possible for a scenario like this:

(place all 3 of them at the cottage...snip...)...Rudy is using the restroom, Amanda and Raffaele are restraining Meredith, threatening her with the knife. Rudy hears a scream. Runs over forgetting to flush, sees Meredith has been stabbed, runs to the bathroom next to her room, grabs towels to staunch the blood flow. While he's doing that, Amanda and Raffaele have exited the cottage, not bothering to lock the door back closed. Rudy decides he can't save Meredith, opens the purse, dumps it out grabbing the cash and credit cards and heads for the front door which is swinging wide open.

Plausible? Very much so. It certainly fits all the evidence we have of how the crime scene was found.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Were there any fingerprints/bloody hand prints on the front door? If not, would it be possible for a scenario like this:

(place all 3 of them at the cottage...snip...)...Rudy is using the restroom, Amanda and Raffaele are restraining Meredith, threatening her with the knife. Rudy hears a scream. Runs over forgetting to flush, sees Meredith has been stabbed, runs to the bathroom next to her room, grabs towels to staunch the blood flow. While he's doing that, Amanda and Raffaele have exited the cottage, not bothering to lock the door back closed. Rudy decides he can't save Meredith, opens the purse, dumps it out grabbing the cash and credit cards and heads for the front door which is swinging wide open.

Plausible? Very much so. It certainly fits all the evidence we have of how the crime scene was found.

But in your scenario, Rudy goes from totally innocent trying to save Meredith's life to completely depraved after failing to save her life by grabbing her purse and taking her money and credit cards.

 

[RWVBWL]

Along with every other argument regarding the bra clasp and knife DNA, you have failed to account for these pieces of evidence. This is why in over 10,000 posts I continue to bring them up. All that has been established is that DNA contamination can happen. However, no explanation for how that contamination happened in this case has been forthcoming.

Likewise, we have heard many apologetic arguments regarding the broken window - however, we have heard no convincing arguments regarding how it happened. The best we have is a stick and a ladder and somehow managing to unlatch a window through a hole while perched precariously on the lower bars - and all without cutting himself nor brushing any glass into the garden nor leaving a mark on the wall nor footprints in the garden. There is also zero evidence of Rudy having ever been in Filomena's room.

So, no, your scenario doesn't explain all the evidence.

Additionally, you argue that Rudy took the keys with him when he left. So, what, he took them, locked the front door (only without stopping in his flight to do so - bloody footprints and all that), and tossed them before returning to the scene? So that's why he had to break the window? That doesn't compute, sir. The front door was not locked when the bloody footprints exited the cottage. There was no pause, no turning around - it was straight out the door. Thus, the door was not locked when he later returned. I would imagine he would not immediately suspect someone had arrived home in the interim given the unlocked front door, no lights, no police - so why would he have needed to break the window?

Hi Bob,
You bring up some good points., and I do like hearing your theories...

Personally I do believe that there is contamination, which could have occured intentionaly or by sloppy work in the lab. I am sure that it has happened before and will so again. And I do believe, after watching the video of the bra clasp being handled, that it could have been collected A LOT better. But I am no scientist. I just remember a case a few years back where a rogue Los Angeles police officer, Raffaele Perez was lying, planting and tampering with evidence, and heck, the cop even shot someone illegally. Over 100 convictions that prosecutors and judges/jurors worked hard on were overturned due to Mr. Perez's "work habits".
Since there is no evidence that Guede was in the room, he probably wasn't. I personally do not believe that he came in thru the window. I believe the window was broken to see if anyone was there. Heck, maybe Guede broke it when he first came by the apartment around 8:30pm, which is about 1/2 an hour before Miss Kercher returned home. But with it being early still, the chances would be greater to have been caught then, it would have made a loud noise which someone might have then investigated or even called the police. It would seem safer to break it later, after the bars/clubs had closed down and most people were asleep.

I have not studied the particulars of the apartment door, but I remember reading there was some problem with it locking. I figured it must have a lock on the handle, as most do, and so it's not that hard to lock it as one quickly leaves, just turn the knob or push the button in.
Then again, if there is someone else involved, who Miss Formica might have seen, maybe that person came back when Guede was in the bars/clubs afterwards? If he is a semi-profesional thief, such as the one who disconnected the alarm at the lawyers office, maybe he wore gloves then, too?
If Guede did not stab Miss Kercher, as Mr. Alessi states Guede said, well, he might not have been too bloody at the time, if at all. Maybe that's why he didn't leave blood, then. I wonder if he showered before he went out, if he did not stab Miss Kercher and have her blood on him?
RWVBWL

 

[RWVBWL]

I assume whoever took the money spent it or kept it. Since there was no attempt to use the credit card I imagine it was tossed: which makes me wonder why it was taken in the first place. Not by a burglar, apparently. Not for gain. I do not know why. Maybe someone was staging a burglary?

Hi Fiona,
I personally think the Rudy Guede, if he had stolen the credit cards, would have had a hard time using a credit card that had the name of Meredith Kercher imprinted on the front. It might have also had here photograph on there too. So if he did steal them, which evidence seems to support, he probably just threw them out after realizing it later. I work in sales, and check names and ID's alot for credit card use, he would not have used it where I work...
RWVBWL

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Fiona,
I personally think the Rudy Guede, if he had stolen the credit cards, would have had a hard time using a credit card that had the name of Meredith Kercher imprinted on the front. It might have also had here photograph on there too. So if he did steal them, which evidence seems to support, he probably just threw them out after realizing it later. I work in sales, and check names and ID's alot for credit card use, he would not have used it where I work...
RWVBWL

Man, it's late in here in L.A. 1:10am, and I am mis-spelling left and right, time for sleep...
RWVBWL

 

[BobTheDonkey]

But in your scenario, Rudy goes from totally innocent trying to save Meredith's life to completely depraved after failing to save her life by grabbing her purse and taking her money and credit cards.

I wouldn't say he was totally innocent. Perhaps he was assaulting Meredith and had to use the restroom due to the kabob. So that part of the story is at least true - that he was using the bathroom b/c of the kabob, that he came back to find Meredith stabbed.

He's still an accomplice and guilty of sexual assault - and it certainly fits the evidence we have.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Perhaps he was assaulting Meredith and had to use the restroom due to the kabob. So that part of the story is at least true - that he was using the bathroom b/c of the kabob, that he came back to find Meredith stabbed..

In that scenario though, how do Rudy's footprints end up all over the room, but Amanda and Raffaele don't have any in there?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Hi Bob,
You bring up some good points., and I do like hearing your theories...

Personally I do believe that there is contamination, which could have occured intentionaly or by sloppy work in the lab. I am sure that it has happened before and will so again. And I do believe, after watching the video of the bra clasp being handled, that it could have been collected A LOT better. But I am no scientist. I just remember a case a few years back where a rogue Los Angeles police officer, Raffaele Perez was lying, planting and tampering with evidence, and heck, the cop even shot someone illegally. Over 100 convictions that prosecutors and judges/jurors worked hard on were overturned due to Mr. Perez's "work habits".
Since there is no evidence that Guede was in the room, he probably wasn't. I personally do not believe that he came in thru the window. I believe the window was broken to see if anyone was there. Heck, maybe Guede broke it when he first came by the apartment around 8:30pm, which is about 1/2 an hour before Miss Kercher returned home. But with it being early still, the chances would be greater to have been caught then, it would have made a loud noise which someone might have then investigated or even called the police. It would seem safer to break it later, after the bars/clubs had closed down and most people were asleep.

I have not studied the particulars of the apartment door, but I remember reading there was some problem with it locking. I figured it must have a lock on the handle, as most do, and so it's not that hard to lock it as one quickly leaves, just turn the knob or push the button in.
Then again, if there is someone else involved, who Miss Formica might have seen, maybe that person came back when Guede was in the bars/clubs afterwards? If he is a semi-profesional thief, such as the one who disconnected the alarm at the lawyers office, maybe he wore gloves then, too?
If Guede did not stab Miss Kercher, as Mr. Alessi states Guede said, well, he might not have been too bloody at the time, if at all. Maybe that's why he didn't leave blood, then. I wonder if he showered before he went out, if he did not stab Miss Kercher and have her blood on him?
RWVBWL

One bit at a time

1) Why would Guede, who knew the boys downstairs and, at the very least from upstairs, Amanda, not simply have knocked on the door? We've gone through this before in this thread, and no one could give a solid reason why he wouldn't. It wouldn't have taken more than a simple "Hi, I'm Amanda's friend. Is she in?" if someone had answered the door. A much quieter, safer manner in which to check for someone being home.

2) The door had to be locked with the key. It's unreasonable to expect that Guede would have known this, however, we also, at this time, have no evidence that he attempted to lock the door.

3) There was none of Rudy's DNA found in the bathroom/shower. Nor was there evidence of a bloody mess on the floor where he would have stripped/left his clothes while in the shower. Besides, the footprints directly to the door lead one to believe he was in a hurry to leave - much safer to take the shower at home than in the cottage with a murdered girl.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

In that scenario though, how do Rudy's footprints end up all over the room, but Amanda and Raffaele don't have any in there?

Perhaps they split from the room before the blood was heavy enough for them to leave footprints. Unlike your average horror flick, your blood doesn't instantaneously drain from your body as soon as your neck is slit.

Remember, Guede comes back and sees Meredith still bleeding out. He thinks he can save her, so he tries to stop the blood flow with towels. Useless attempt, perhaps, but it does reflect that it wasn't an instant pool of blood on the floor.

 

[Mary_H]

Hello Fiona,
My last girlfriend, a mom, always had her keys and cell phone on the big table in the apartment, and she kept the cash and her credit cards in her purse also. It would be easy to grab them on the way out.
RWVBWL

I always keep my keys and my cell phone in the pockets of my jeans. I would never be able to find them if I kept them in my purse. Sometimes I even carry my wallet in my pocket if I am wearing a coat with big enough pockets.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Perhaps they split from the room before the blood was heavy enough for them to leave footprints. Unlike your average horror flick, your blood doesn't instantaneously drain from your body as soon as your neck is slit.

But she was stabbed. Her throat wasn't slit. There was blood spatter everywhere. Do you think AK and RS didn't get any blood on their clothes? If we assume that Raffaele's foot print is the one on the bathmat, then how would you reconcile that?

 

[HumanityBlues]

I always keep my keys and my cell phone in the pockets of my jeans. I would never be able to find them if I kept them in my purse. Sometimes I even carry my wallet in my pocket if I am wearing a coat with big enough pockets.

Maybe all the women I've dated are just strange, but they always kept everything in their purse.