End indirect subsidies to Israel as a solution for peace

[little grey rabbit]

Gaza strip (and to much lesser extent the West Bank) have become little bantustans run for the benefit of Israel but paid for by the International Community.

Given for an entity like Gaza it is impossible to grow any where enough of its own food, and impossible to trade normally or develop a normal economy to buy food. Virtually everything is either donated by the international community or purchased by funds sent home by migrant workers.

As we no longer find it acceptable to use starvation has an economic lever, Gazans have very little chance of a normal career, guaranteed food supply and so no real barriers to fertility. From a Gazan having more children is probably an economic sensible choice.

The reason that the Gaza strip can not support its population is mainly because it is crowded with folks that used to live where Israel is now and the fact that there are no restrictions on its birth rate.

If Israel was forced by the International community to pay for the maintenance of its bantu-stans to an acceptable standard, would that not provide an extremely powerful incentive for Israel to enter into meaningful negotiations?

 

[lionking]

And how exactly is the international community going to so compel Isreal?

 

[little grey rabbit]

Threaten to do to Israel what it does to Gaza?

Oh I know it won't happen. Our leaders are just as complicit in what Israel does in the occupied territories as Israel itself.

Its more a thought experiment. If our political elites were honest, upright and genuinely interested in solving the problem, how could you go about it?

 

[lionking]

Threaten to do to Israel what it does to Gaza?

Oh I know it won't happen. Our leaders are just as complicit in what Israel does in the occupied territories as Israel itself.

Its more a thought experiment. If our political elites were honest, upright and genuinely interested in solving the problem, how could you go about it?

What does Israel do in the "occupied territories"?

And by the way, they are "occupied" only in your mind.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Oh really?

So why is the Allenby-King Hussein bridge described as the Israeli-Jordan border crossing and not the Palestinian-Jordan border crossing.

And I am pretty sure those people going through my bags and asking all those questions for 2 hours were Israelis.

 

[Skeptic]

It is not true that every anti-zionist is necessarily a antisemite, let alone a holocaust denier, but the original poster reminds us that it sure helps.

At least one is no longer feels it is necessary to use convoluted excuses as to why the wish to annihilate the Jewish state, or to support those who do, or thinking that all nations on earth have an implicit right to exist except the Jewish state, is "not antisemitism, just anti-zionism".

 

[little grey rabbit]

It is not true that every anti-zionist is necessarily a antisemite, let alone a holocaust denier, but the original poster reminds us that it sure helps.

At least one is no longer feels it is necessary to use convoluted excuses as to why the wish to annihilate the Jewish state, or to support those who do, or thinking that all nations on earth have an implicit right to exist except the Jewish state, is "not antisemitism, just anti-zionism".

Dunno why its anti-zionist to want a solution to the Palestinian-Israel conflict.

After all, I come from a settler society myself that knows just how difficult these problems can be. Trouble is Israel lives in denial that is a settler society and therefore has responsibilities to the indigenous people. What is worse we encourage Israel in this denial and create incentives that mean it is more advantageous for both sides to maintain conflict.

Israel is now basically a war economy and would probably go into prolonged depression as it adjusted if it was forced to make peace and give up all those indirect subsidies coming in.

 

[Thunder]

What does Israel do in the "occupied territories"?

And by the way, they are "occupied" only in your mind.

before the 2nd Intifada, Israel controlled around 50% of the West Bank. Now, the the IDF is back inside many of the Palestinain cities and towns.

So yes, the West Bank is still very "occupied". Sorry that you can't accept the truth.

 

[Thunder]

It is not true that every anti-zionist is necessarily a antisemite, let alone a holocaust denier, but the original poster reminds us that it sure helps.

in other words:

"anti-Occupation= anti-Semitism"

"anti-Israeli settlements= anti-Semitism".

"pro-Middle East peace= pro-Nazi".

do I have that right "Skeptic"? Have I correctly summorized your views on the matter? I'm really trying my best.

 

[WildCat]

in other words:

"anti-Occupation= anti-Semitism"

"anti-Israeli settlements= anti-Semitism".

"pro-Middle East peace= pro-Nazi".

do I have that right "Skeptic"? Have I correctly summorized your views on the matter? I'm really trying my best.

No, in other words little grey rabbit is a holocaust-denying anti-semite... who holds many of the same positions you do wrt Israel.

Deal with it.

 

[Thunder]

No, in other words little grey rabbit is a holocaust-denying anti-semite... who holds many of the same positions you do wrt Israel.

Deal with it.

I have not read any of Little Grey Rabbits posts. is he a holocaust deniar?

does he want to see Israel return to the 1967 borders and share Jerusalem with the Muslims?

 

[Skeptic]

No, in other words little grey rabbit is a holocaust-denying anti-semite... who holds many of the same positions you do wrt Israel.

Deal with it.

A total coincidence, I'm sure.

 

[Thunder]

Unfortunately for you, I am not an anti-Semite nor a Holocaust denier.

But I do condemn the racist settlement project and racist practices within Israel.

So, I guess, as far as you are concerned, I might as well just be a Holocaust-denier and an anti-Semite.

"Oh no!!! someone who condemns the settlements, the annexation of West Bank land, and discriminatory practices against Israeli-Arabs...but is NOT an anti-Semite or a Holocaust denier??? This can't be!! We must associate him with Holocaust-deniers and anti-Semites anyways, in order to justify disregarding and insulting his political views!!

The world must not be allowed to see people condemn the settlements and racism in Israel...but who are not Jew-haters and Holocaust deniers!!

Such would undermine our entire claim that that anti-settlements=anti-Jew!!!!!"

 

[lionking]

I have not read any of Little Grey Rabbits posts. is he a holocaust deniar?

It would have helped to do so before you completely misrepresented Skeptic position.

 

[little grey rabbit]

No, in other words little grey rabbit is a holocaust-denying anti-semite... who holds many of the same positions you do wrt Israel.

Deal with it.

So peace in the Middle East is a bad idea because a Holocaust denier supports it? How far does this paradigm stretch?

Opposition to the Iraq invasion is a bad idea because this Holocaust denier opposed the invasion?
Public Health-care reform is a bad idea because this Holocaust denier supports it?
Autonomy in Tibet is a bad idea because this Holocaust denier supports it?
Increase investment in HIV mitigation in the third world is a bad idea because this Holocaust denier supports it?

Where does it end.

In any case it is a fact that the Allenby bridge is described as the Israel-Jordan border and is manned by Israeli border defense. Therefore Israel is still exercising authority over the West Bank.

Deal with it.

 

[lionking]

Do you really want an answer? Holocaust deniers lack credibility. Period.

 

[Skeptic]

In The 12 Chairs, there is a character, Ostrap Bender, who pretends among other things to be a great chess player and arranges a simultaneous exhibition. He looks towards it with confidence, knowing that at least the first move, 1. e4, won't present any problems. Never mind that he can hardly remember how the pieces move -- after all, how hard can this game be?

Parky is a bit like this in the ME peace front. He is quite ignorant of Israel or the ME conflict (unsurprisingly, never having been there, not speaking Hebrew or Arabic, and relying for his "information" mostly on far-left sources), but that doesn't stop him from being convinced following his view is the one and only way to peace. Never mind that his "solution" and his view of the "history of the conflict" happens to coincide with those approved of by the radical Islamists, holocaust deniers, and other assorted Jew-haters who want Israel destroyed (like the PLO, for instance) -- after all, how hard can this ME peace thing be?

 

[little grey rabbit]

I think eventually Israel will go the same way as White Australia or the Republic of Rhodesia. Its very name is including the indigenous inhabitants and it is going to have to find some way to both include the indigenous people in a meaningful way in its identity and find a solution to those disenfranchised people that it administers partially directly and partially through a hands-off Bantu-stan style system.

You are right it won't be easy, but the first step is to admit you have a problem.

 

[lionking]

I think eventually Israel will go the same way as White Australia

What is White Australia?

 

[little grey rabbit]

What is White Australia?[/QUOTE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

It is necessary that we should determine what are the ideals towards which every Australian would desire to strive. I think those ideals might well be stated as being to secure our national safety, and to ensure the maintenance of our White Australia Policy to continue as an integral portion of the British Empire.[9] We intend to keep this country white and not allow its peoples to be faced with the problems that at present are practically insoluble in many parts of the world."

If you swapped White with Jewish and Australia with Israel, you get Israeli policy circa 2010.