Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[Tubbythin]

Talk about irony! You pegged it. I just quantified it for your in a bunch of different wavelengths. What have the standard theories predicted that is useful in deciding which model is right and which is wrong?

They've predicted a model that obeys the laws of thermodynamics. Unlike you.

I picked a very specific distance and margin of error. What did they do?

The proponents of the standard theory have, been very patient and tried to help you understand where and why you are so very wrong and you have responded by insulting them and making incredibly arrogant statements from a position of ignorance.
By the way Michael, have you ever encountered a partition function or the Saha equation?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Just a second. You're saying that article contains the parameters of the type of plasma you believe the photosphere is composed of? If so, can you just post them?

Again, I need

density
chemical composition (at least roughly)
temperature (or any equivalent, like average ion velocity, average energy, etc.)
voltage/thickness or electric field (if any)

I have emailed Oliver for help with the nuclear chemistry. If you have any insights as to why Fe XX passes through, but 94A is unique in terms of absorption, I admit, I need help.

 

[Reality Check]

Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked

This iron crust within the Sun idea of Micheal Mozina is very easy to disprove (big surprise !): It is thermodynamically impossible since it must be at a temperature of at least 9400 K (as measured within the photosphere) and so be a plasma. This has been pointed out to MM many times over the years. Here are some of the explanations given to him that he continues to not be able to understand:

• Is your solid iron surface thermodynamically possible? First asked 8 July 2009. See this post for a fuller explanation of the thermodynamic problems with MM's solid iron surface.
• Why this iron crust is thermodynamically impossible
• Iron Sun Surface Thermodynamically Impossible IV

This alone makes his idea into a complete fantasy and his continued belief with it a delusion and so we could stop there but... The continuous issuing of unsupported assertions, displays of ignorance of physics and fantasies about what he imagines in images are illustrated in this list of unanswered questions. The first question was asked on 6th July 2009.

1. What is the amount of 171A light emitted by the photosphere and can it be detected?
2. What discharge rates and processes come from your hypothetical thermodynamically impossible solid iron surface to show up as records of change in the RD animation in the corona.
3. Where is the the solar wind and the appropriate math in Birkeland's book?
4. Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified fission as the "original current source"
5. Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified a discharge process between the Sun's surface and the heliosphere (about 10 billion kilometers from the Sun).
6. Coronal loops are electrical discharges?
7. Can Micheal Mozina answer a simple RD animation question?
8. More questions for Michael Mozina about the photosphere optical depth
9. Formation of the iron surface
10. How much is "mostly neon" MM?
11. Just how useless is the Iron Sun model?
12. Coronal loop heating question for Michael Mozina
13. Coronal loop stability question for Michael Mozina.
14. Has the hollow Iron Sun been tested?
15. Is Saturn the Sun?
16. Question about "streams of electrons" for Micheal Mozina
17. What is the temperature above the iron crust in the Iron Sun model?
18. What part of the Sun emits a nearly black body spectrum with an effective temperature of 5777 K?
19. Is the iron surface is kept cooler than the photosphere by heated particles?
20. Entire photon "spectrum" is composed of all the emissions from all the layers
21. Same event in different passbands = surface of the Sun moves?
22. Why neon for your "mostly neon" photosphere?
23. Where is the "mostly fluorine" layer?
24. What is your physical evidence for "mostly Li/Be/B/C/N/O" layers?
25. What is your physical evidence for the "mostly deuterium" layer?
26. Explain the shape of your electrical arcs (coronal loops)
27. What is your physical evidence for the silicon in sunspots?
28. How do MM's "layers" survive the convection currents in the Sun?
29. Where are the controllable empirical experiments showing the Iron Sun mass separation?
30. How can your iron "crust" not be a plasma at a temperature of at least 9400 K?
31. How can your "mountain ranges" be at a temperature of at least 160,000 K?
32. Where is the spike of Fe composition in the remnants of novae and supernovae?
33. Which images did you use as your input for the PM-A.gif image, etc.?
34. Where did your "mountain ranges" go in Active Region 9143 when it got to the limb?
35. Do RD movies of inactive regions show "mountain ranges"?
36. Just how high are your "mountain ranges"?
37. How does your iron crust exist when there are convection currents moving through it?
38. Why does the apparent height of your "mountain ranges" depend on the timing of source images for the RD process when the light sources and mountains in the images are the same?
39. Why does the lighting of your "mountain ranges" move depending on the RD process?
40. Why are the coronal loops in the RD images aligned along your "mountain ranges" rather than between them as expect fro electrical discharges?
41. Why are the sunspot umbra not "mostly" iron plasma (Fe was also detected by SERTS as was C and a dozen more elements)?
42. Can you show how you calculated that "3000-3750 KM" figure for the photosphere depth?
43. How did you determine that the filaments "abruptly end right there"?
44. Citation for the LMSAL claim that coronal loops all originate *ABOVE* the photosphere?
45. Citation for Birkeland's prediction for the speed of the solar wind
46. How did you measure the curvature of penumbral filaments in the Hinode images?
47. How does your Iron Sun fantasy create the observed magnetic field of the Sun?
48. Calculation for the depth of the SOT_ca_061213flare_cl_lg.mpg filament?
49. Can you understand that the photosphere is defined to be opaque?
50. A comment on MM's ability to interpret images: No little plasma (penumbral) filament!
51. Where has any one in this thread claimed that the umbra is 2D?
52. Is Michael Mozina's claim of measuring the curvature of the filaments true?
53. Do you understand how fluorescent tubes ("neon bulbs") work?
54. Can you explain why limb darkening does not diisprove your model?
55. Why is the SERTS data on the corona applicable to sunspots?
56. Please define a "current carrying plasma" from a textbook.
57. How does the SERTS data show that all of the neon and silcon in the Sun's atmosphere is highly ionized?
58. Where is the solar model that predicts the SDO images in Birkeland's book? (really a follow on to questions dating from July 2009)
59. Where does the current from your impossible iron crust come from?
60. Did you cherry pick the SDO image to support your fantasy? - the answer is yes. MM saw a "green line" in one PR image and ignored its absence in another.
61. This post deserves mentioning: Math Bunnies & Image Bunnies
62. Can Micheal Mozina understannd simple geometry?
63. What is wrong with W.D.Clinger's calculation?
    Two recent questions but I fully expect the MM will be able to refute the geometry textbooks !

 

[Michael Mozina]

They've predicted a model that obeys the laws of thermodynamics. Unlike you.

Please relate that to a SDO RD image and how it relates to the chromosphere in terms of distance ect, and what to expect then in terms of the RD image.

The proponents of the standard theory have, been very patient and tried to help you understand where and why you are so very wrong and you have responded by insulting them and making incredibly arrogant statements from a position of ignorance.
By the way Michael, have you ever encountered a partition function or the Saha equation?

I provided you with real testable predictions. So far we have no way to distinguish between the standard model and the Birkeland model. I've been *INCREDIBLY* precise in terms of what to expect and where to find it, including the error bar math bunnies you guys love and adore. The very least they could do is reciprocate in kind in some way that allows us to positively distinguish between the two theories. Is that really too much to ask? I've been *REALLY* specific.

 

[GeeMack]

I have emailed Oliver for help with the nuclear chemistry. If you have any insights as to why Fe XX passes through, but 94A is unique in terms of absorption, I admit, I need help.

Uh, because the Fe XX isn't passing through but is in fact above the photosphere.

 

[Tubbythin]

Please relate that to a SDO RD image and how it relates to the chromosphere in terms of distance ect, and what to expect then in terms of the RD image.



I provided you with real testable predictions. So far we have no way to distinguish between the standard model and the Birkeland model. I've been *INCREDIBLY* precise in terms of what to expect and where to find it, including the error bar math bunnies you guys love and adore. The very least they could do is reciprocate in kind in some way that allows us to positively distinguish between the two theories. Is that really too much to ask? I've been *REALLY* specific.

We did distinguish. Your model fails thermodynamics. The standard model does not. Simple. And yet somehow we made it over 50 pages?

 

[GeeMack]

Please relate that to a SDO RD image and how it relates to the chromosphere in terms of distance ect, and what to expect then in terms of the RD image.



I provided you with real testable predictions. So far we have no way to distinguish between the standard model and the Birkeland model. I've been *INCREDIBLY* precise in terms of what to expect and where to find it, including the error bar math bunnies you guys love and adore. The very least they could do is reciprocate in kind in some way that allows us to positively distinguish between the two theories. Is that really too much to ask? I've been *REALLY* specific.

Really, specifically, we can distinguish between the two models by noting that your crackpot conjecture is, well, technically not even a solar model, but more importantly it is not consistent with the laws of physics, while the standard solar model is.

ETA: And what you're suggesting isn't even remotely like Birkeland's ideas other than it's round. But you already know that.

 

[ben m]

Um, you need something that's going to distinguish between us in relationship to the photosphere chromosphere boundary.

I can't distinguish between two models when one of them explicitly doesn't make a prediction and the other one is unintelligible because its only defender is has self-contradiction-inattention disorder.

Mozina-model: "The photosphere-chromosphere boundary should look like a sphere. From the side, anyway, the underside edge is to the left but transparent. It's hyperboloidal in 4-D but projects in 35mm, half price weekdays from 3 to pi/2."

Mainstream model: "The proposed boundary's appearance is hard to predict, since it's a complex---not a simple---function of several hard-to-measure physical quantities."

Bring on the SDO images, Michael! Process them any way you like! If a dark band appears proximal to a light band, I'll say "That's consistent with the mainstream corona model; I have no idea what it means in your model because you refused to tell me." If a light band appears proximal to a dark band, I'll say "That's consistent with the mainstream corona model; I have no idea what it means in your model because you refused to tell me."

That sure will be a crystal-clear outcome! Sounds like a banner day for science! Make sure the Nobel committee is on speed dial!

 

[Reality Check]

What I'm looking for is something like:

Standard solar theory "predicts' that all these iron ion wavelengths start .....therefore we should expect to see........in relationship to the photosphere/chromosphere boundary. I need something to "test" in terms of solar models.

That is easy if irelevant:
Standard solar theory predicts that all these iron ion wavelengths originate where the temperatures are high enough to ionize the Fe ions.
Duh !
For example the TRACE spacecraft will see emission from

• Fe II ions in the 1600 A passband.
• Fe IX ions in the 173 A passband.
• Fe XII ions in the 195 A passband.
• Fe XV ions in the 284 A passband.

Therefore we should expect to see "all these iron ion wavelengths" being emitted from regions with appropriate temperatures. Thses regions turn out to be above the photosphere.
How do we know that these regions are above the photosphere? We measure them!

• Block out the light from the Sun except for the corona. Measure the temperature. This ist he temperature of the corona.
• Ditto for the transition region.
• Ditto for the chromosphere.
• Ditto for the photosphere.

Astronomers also have techniques for measuring the positions of features in the 2D data that their instruments return.

Now MM.
What We are looking for is something like:
Your fantasy* "predicts' that all these iron ion wavelengths start .....therefore we should expect to see........in relationship to the photosphere/chromosphere boundary.
We need something to "test" in terms of your fantasy.

*A fantasy because it violates thermodynamics, e.g see Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K ) and predicts absolutely nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 50 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.

 

[ben m]

I have emailed Oliver for help with the nuclear chemistry. If you have any insights as to why Fe XX passes through, but 94A is unique in terms of absorption, I admit, I need help.

Michael, would you like to explain what this has to do with nuclear chemistry?

(This is just for morbid entertainment, of course, which is as much as one can hope for from this thread at this point. Michael, nuclear chemistry---especially as relevant to stellar astrophysics, as it turns out---is one of my particular fields of expertise.)

 

[DeiRenDopa]

That is easy if irelevant:
Standard solar theory predicts that all these iron ion wavelengths originate where the temperatures are high enough to ionize the Fe ions.
Duh !
For example the TRACE spacecraft will see emission from

• Fe II ions in the 1600 A passband.
• Fe IX ions in the 173 A passband.
• Fe XII ions in the 195 A passband.
• Fe XV ions in the 284 A passband.

Therefore we should expect to see "all these iron ion wavelengths" being emitted from regions with appropriate temperatures. Thses regions turn out to be above the photosphere.
How do we know that these regions are above the photosphere? We measure them!

• Block out the light from the Sun except for the corona. Measure the temperature. This ist he temperature of the corona.
• Ditto for the transition region.
• Ditto for the chromosphere.
• Ditto for the photosphere.

Astronomers also have techniques for measuring the positions of features in the 2D data that their instruments return.

Now MM.
What We are looking for is something like:
Your fantasy* "predicts' that all these iron ion wavelengths start .....therefore we should expect to see........in relationship to the photosphere/chromosphere boundary.
We need something to "test" in terms of your fantasy.

*A fantasy because it violates thermodynamics, e.g see Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K ) and predicts absolutely nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 50 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.

(emphasis added)

At last, someone who seems to be talking about (well, hinting at) what a total solar eclipse might tell us!

 

[GeeMack]

Michael, would you like to explain what this has to do with nuclear chemistry?

(This is just for morbid entertainment, of course, which is as much as one can hope for from this thread at this point. Michael, nuclear chemistry---especially as relevant to stellar astrophysics, as it turns out---is one of my particular fields of expertise.)

Oh you're going to really enjoy Oliver Manuel. He's the crackpot who had a crazy idea that the Sun is mass separated into layers of elements, with the lightest elements towards the surface and going heavier as you move to the center. His whacked out notion is that the Sun has an iron core. Oh, and the mass separation is complete, layer upon layer, right down to each individual isotope.

Oddly enough, that mass separated Sun with the iron at the core is where Michael gets the nutty idea that there are layers of neon, silicon, etc., wafting about over the top of his mythical solid surface. That's what makes him think he's actually seeing particular elements when he stares at an image of a sunspot. He "knows" those layers are there. He assumes that must be what he's seeing.

Michael would like to think he's a legitimate scientist because Oliver Manuel had the poor judgment to apply Michael's name to a paper he wrote. Michael has invoked Manuel's name as a supporter of his conjecture, but Manuel has publicly disavowed support for the solid iron surface notion.

 

[Reality Check]

Actually I think that Oliver Manuel's idea is that the center of the Sun is a neutron star which powers the Sun by some sort of neutron decay.

 

[DeiRenDopa]

Actually I think that Oliver Manuel's idea is that the center of the Sun is a neutron star which powers the Sun by some sort of neutron decay.

Yep, no batteries electric currents required.

 

[Michael Mozina]

FYI, I also 'predict' that if we were to turn on all the iron lines in a ROYGBIV rainbow fashion and looked along the limb lines, we find that same 4800KM gap between the base of the chromosophere and the opaque limb.

That would also probably go down in history as one of the most beautiful and magnificent images of the sun we as a human species have ever seen. I think it would be one of the most remember images of the SDO program.

I'd like to see it with and without the 94A.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Yep, no batteries electric currents required.

Yep, just simple induction.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Oh you're going to really enjoy Oliver Manuel. He's the crackpot who had a crazy

What a hypocrite you are. First you complain you want me to be "civil" and then you go right back to going below the belt. What is your problem? You completely debase what should otherwise be an interesting scientific conversation in every single post. What's that about?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Really, specifically, we can distinguish between the two models by noting that your crackpot conjecture

That is your idea of civil conversation?

 

[Reality Check]

FYI, I also 'predict' that if we were to turn on all the iron lines in a ROYGBIV rainbow fashion and looked along the limb lines, we find that same 4800KM gap between the base of the chromosophere and the opaque limb.

FYI, I also predict that if we were to turn on all the iron lines in a ROYGBIV rainbow fashion and looked along the limb lines, we find a gap of 1000's of kilometres between the base of the chromosophere and the opaque limb, i.e. photosphere.
This of course has been observed for decades already.

Of course we would have to ignore Michael Mozina "I see bunnies" technique and work with the actual scientific data.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I can't distinguish between two models when one of them explicitly doesn't make a prediction and the other one is unintelligible because its only defender is has self-contradiction-inattention disorder.

Every RD image in the iron ion wavelengths will reveal the surface of the sun. It will demonstrate that the opaque edge is 4800KM from the bottom of the chromosphere. How much simpler can I make it?