Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Supernaut]

My post, #8841 on page 222, was for Fulcanelli's benefit.

I was referring to HIM as "a piece of work" but the way I formatted didn't make it clear enough.

 

[Amazer]

Every time I read discussions about this case I begin to feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

I’ve spent more time than probably is healthy reading about it over the last 12 months +. Which includes following this monumental thread from the beginning (although revisiting some of the earlier pages I’ve found a few eye-openers I missed, such as Fulcanelli’s jaw-dropping reply to Halides1’s post about the defamation of Knox with lies published about her sex-life - as if extracting information from her by telling her was HIV+ and simply publicising the actuality of her sex-life wouldn’t be despicable enough).

It’s just not credible that anyone who has taken the time to inform themselves of the facts (NOT the endless, asinine speculation, opinionation and tabloid-propagated lies) can continue to genuinely believe that Knox and Sollicito are guilty of anything except being young and dumb.

It is *perfectly* understandable that people who recognise that a grotesque injustice has been perpetrated are outraged, and continue to argue passionately for the reversal of their conviction.

But how to account for the effort expended by those who continue the remorseless and often shrill advocacy of their guilt (meaning Knox’s, of course, with Sollicito joining her on her hayride to Hell as matter of expediency)? Normal people, even if they believed K and S to be guilty - which would be through a less-than-thorough familiarity with the case, and hence imply indifference - just wouldn’t evince such …. obsessiveness.

Who are they, these “guilters”?

(The temptation to name some of the following is almost irresistible).

- Some are sock-puppets and shills for the corrupt Italian judiciary.

- Some are sock-puppets and shills for the venal low-lifes who are hoping for book-publishing deals whose sales will depend on the perpetuation of the sick fantasies about Knox.

- Some are just ugly, cruel and envious individuals. The kind who take pleasure in seeing their betters humiliated and even destroyed, believing that the context and their faux-righteousness disguises their malice. I’ve never witnessed so many of them outing themselves at once - ever.

- Finally, there are the self-styled, so-called "Skeptics". Their only motivation is to use the “discussion” as a game in which to flatter themselves that they are demonstrating their “intellectualism” with endless sophistry and hair-splitting, this from safely behind the skirts of the “authority” they pathologically side with, oblivious to the harm being done, and their complicity in it.

They know who they are (or maybe not?). A bunch of moral imbeciles, basically.

Cute... I hope you feel better now.

 

[shuttlt]

Supernaut,

Bruce isn't interested in demonstrating that there are uncorrected lies over at PMF. Would you like to give it a go? What is the number one worst, most obviously wicked, most easily demonstrated recurring lie on PMF, or TJMK that has gone uncorrected?

 

[Supernaut]

Supernaut,

Bruce isn't interested in demonstrating that there are uncorrected lies over at PMF. Would you like to give it a go? What is the number one worst, most obviously wicked, most easily demonstrated recurring lie on PMF, or TJMK that has gone uncorrected?

Excuse me?

 

[shuttlt]

Excuse me?

I'm trying to find some angle on the case other than picking holes in Bruce's site. You seemed to feel that us "self-styled, so-called "Skeptics"" were being unfair in our treatment of Bruce and the pro-Amanda position. That being the case, I thought you might like to help me turn some of that sceptical attention to the lies that Bruce feels, and I assume you feel, PMF is riddled with. If you don't feel PMF is riddled with lies, I withdraw the question.

By the way, I disagree with you that the scepticism that has been directed at Bruce is sophistry. If an argument is good, having many eyes looking over it for flaws can make it better. The vague, ill supported wooly bits get cut away and you end up with a better argument. If this process keeps producing counter examples and contradictions, then it wasn't a very good arguement to begin with. It's certainly possible to carry on in spite of that. Homeopaths manage this just fine.

 

[Supernaut]

I'm trying to find some angle on the case other than picking holes in Bruce's site. You seemed to feel that us "self-styled, so-called "Skeptics"" were being unfair in our treatment of Bruce and the pro-Amanda position. That being the case, I thought you might like to help me turn some of that sceptical attention to the lies that Bruce feels, and I assume you feel, PMF is riddled with. If you don't feel PMF is riddled with lies, I withdraw the question.

You, along with Fulcanelli, Kermit and many others, need to learn the meaning of the word "prevaricate".

Lawyers and politiicans hone their skills with it as a matter of necessity, it involves balancing on a fine line between obfuscation and outright lying.

TJMK and PMF are sites purpose made to destroy Amanda Knox, they serve no other purpose, least of all "justice".

And I see no reason to assume that you are in the category of "Skeptic" - one the others I listed is more likely.

 

[stilicho]

Who are they, these “guilters”?

Most of us have been here at the JREF a lot longer than you suppose. We were attracted by the Original Post which stated blankly that an innocent American woman had been unjustly accused and convicted in Italy because she was turning cartwheels in the police station. Note the title of this thread. Read the first post. It's quite illuminating.

It didn't take long for the facts to put that argument to rest.

In the meantime, advocates for Amanda's release (and, to a lesser extent, Raffaele's) have flocked to the JREF with, for example, weird comparisons between a routine police interview and Stalin's labour camps.

We're still waiting for a single, coherent, cohesive, supportable alternate narrative that doesn't involve Amanda and Raffaele in Meredith's murder. Not speculations about Rudy bringing a ladder to the cottage. Not magical DNA dust floating and landing only on one item of Meredith's clothing. Not photoshopped footprints.

Pick one narrative and support it with the available evidence.

 

[Supernaut]

Most of us have been here at the JREF a lot longer than you suppose. We were attracted by the Original Post which stated blankly that an innocent American woman had been unjustly accused and convicted in Italy because she was turning cartwheels in the police station. Note the title of this thread. Read the first post. It's quite illuminating.

It didn't take long for the facts to put that argument to rest.

In the meantime, advocates for Amanda's release (and, to a lesser extent, Raffaele's) have flocked to the JREF with, for example, weird comparisons between a routine police interview and Stalin's labour camps.

We're still waiting for a single, coherent, cohesive, supportable alternate narrative that doesn't involve Amanda and Raffaele in Meredith's murder. Not speculations about Rudy bringing a ladder to the cottage. Not magical DNA dust floating and landing only on one item of Meredith's clothing. Not photoshopped footprints.

Pick one narrative and support it with the available evidence.

As a polemicist, you aren't very good. Certainly not up to my standards.

 

[stilicho]

TJMK and PMF are sites purpose made to destroy Amanda Knox, they serve no other purpose, least of all "justice".

She's done a pretty good job of her own self-destruction. Mind you, she'll have plenty of life to enjoy after serving her 26 years in prison. The woman she murdered will not have that privilege.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Shuttit writes:

I am less familiar with Gacy, but did he have reason to believe the net was closing in and he only had another few hours before he was arrested while the police were watching him?

Indeed he was. They had him under open surveillance for several days before they got a search warrant and found the bodies under his house. They wanted to make sure he had no opportunity to abduct and kill another victim, and they also wanted to rattle his cage, hoping he might decide to cooperate.

 

[stilicho]

As a polemicist, you aren't very good. Certainly not up to my standards.

You're welcome to try your hand at creating a narrative. Only one other person has tried, so far, and it was rapidly abandoned in favour of more unsubstantiated speculation.

 

[stilicho]

Indeed he was. They had him under open surveillance for several days before they got a search warrant and found the bodies under his house. They wanted to make sure he had no opportunity to abduct and kill another victim, and they also wanted to rattle his cage, hoping he might decide to cooperate.

Are you now really comparing Amanda and Raffaele to J W Gacy? What a futile exercise. Local, state, and federal authorities chose to watch and wait on David Koresh, too, and could probably have picked him up any time for questioning and/or detainment because he typically jogged down the road every morning. They didn't pick him up. They waited to see what he would do.

 

[Supernaut]

Do the Kerchers believe Knox and Sollicito are guilty?

The Kercher family is difficult to fathom – they, of all people, must be thoroughly familiar with the facts, and one would assume they would be hell-bent on seeing the real murderer punished.

Nothing much has been heard from them, or about them, excepting the ubiquitous platitude that they “maintained a dignified silence”. But they are, they say, "happy" with the verdict, so presumably they are happy that Knox and Sollicito, who they manifestly can have NO WAY of knowing for sure were involved in Meredith's death, are having their lives destroyed. Nevertheless, they (rather pointedly, it seems to me) avoid expressing any *explicit* belief in the guilt of the two.

Notwithstanding their loss, I’m afraid to say I don't perceive this silence of theirs as "dignified", at all. In my view, they could and should have made an effort to stop this grotesque farce in its tracks long ago, as soon as the prima facae evidence against Guede became known and he was caught while on the run in Germany.

They have, in effect, made themselves complicit in the reduction of Meredith’s killer’s jail sentence from an already lenient 30 years to 14. (I hope this is rectified somehow, and I have to say that I wish Guede all the ill in the world at the hands of his fellow inmates).

As I say, puzzling, but at least one explanation suggests itself.

Westerners are now inured to what is referred to as the 'cult of the individual' (essentially, egoism and self-love), the notion that anyone and everyone is entitled to believe they are 'special', and that any premature death is a 'tragedy'.

One frequently hears about survivors of disasters such as air-crashes expressing feelings of "guilt" for their own survival and that they could somehow have "made a difference" and "done more" to save others.

In fact, they have simply been confronted with the stark reality that they are NOT "special", that any of us can have our lives ended in an instant for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They are trying to rationalise their feelings and regain their lost sense of "being in control of their destiny" from which they’ve been so abruptly disabused.

The Italian prosecutions' elaborate and theatrical "narrative" of a "frenzy of drug-fuelled sex and violence" instigated by the charismatic "Luciferina" Knox seems to have hypnotised the Kerchers and served to allow them (and others) to remain in denial of the fact that Meredith’s death was the result of a completely random and meaningless act of savagery by an utter nobody, that she was NOT a protagonist in a tableau resembling a Greek tragedy.

Add to this an undoubted combination of ingratiation and badgering by Mignini (if not his typical bullying), and they simply allowed themselves to become (literally) mute bystanders to the spectacle he was orchestrating.

If this isn’t so, then less charitably, I have to note that if Guede alone had been convicted of the murder, the Kerchers would have had to forget about any financial 'compensation' for Meredith’s death, but with that of two others from relatively affluent families......

If they would come to their senses, they’d put the Italian police in their sights for litigation.

Guede, who by late 2007 had been steadily building a reputation as a drug-using, knife-wielding thief and burglar, should have been arrested before he ever got a chance to be in Meredith's home. The cops’ incompetence and negligence (or worse) had left him on the streets. I'm no lawyer, but I'd say they'd have a good case.

(Guede’s various stories with “some other dude” killing Meredith? Either he cut her throat himself or he FACILITATED IT by taking this “other dude” to her home, and then fleeing to a disco to try and set up an alibi, leaving her to die. Either way, it would make him no less guilty. He remains a God-damned, worthless liar.)

If the Kerchers are able to escape Mignini and his cronies’ (and their own venal lawyers’) ingratiation and distance themselves from them, perhaps this will dawn on them one day.

 

[Fulcanelli]

It has been reported that, in the days following the murder, the Perugian police interviewed 86 various people who were acquainted with Meredith Kercher. They did not interview Patrick Lumumba, a well-known, local businessman who was also the employer of one of their prime suspects. Why not?

It also has been reported the police were observing Patrick's cell phone activity -- they were aware he had switched either cell phones or sim cards in the days following the murder. If true, what possible reason could they have for not interviewing him calmly, during the day, in the presence of a lawyer, before Amanda's interrogation -- especially about Amanda?

When the police stormed out to arrest Patrick in the middle of the night, he was at home, where he had slept every night since the crime was committed. In other words, they had no evidence he was planning to leave town. What was the rush?

First of all, why would they have interviewed Patrick? They didn't even know he had met Meredith (when he offered her a job in his bar). In an investigation you interview those people closest to the victim, those found at the scene of the crime/live in the property, and those who display specific suspicious behaviour 'first'. 'Then' you move outwards and start interviewing people the victim may have come into contact with in the past. Patrick, for very good reason, would have been 'way' down on the list. Bear in mind also, the police only have a certain number of people and resources and they are spent not just interviewing people, but examining the crime scene, looking for CCTV footage, searching the areas around the cottage for other evidence in all the areas around the cottage, looking through records to see if some known offender that may fit the crime had recently been released from prison and a myriad of other things. They also had to deal with the press corps, relatives and government officials. This all on top of the fact Perugia still needed to be policed and there were other crimes also to be dealt with.

Police didn't arrest Patrick in the middle of the night. He was arrested first thing the next morning.

 

[shuttlt]

You, along with Fulcanelli, Kermit and many others, need to learn the meaning of the word "prevaricate".

Lawyers and politiicans hone their skills with it as a matter of necessity, it involves balancing on a fine line between obfuscation and outright lying.

TJMK and PMF are sites purpose made to destroy Amanda Knox, they serve no other purpose, least of all "justice".

OK. Let's suppose that is their purpose. It seems like an odd one, but OK. Do they do this by lying, or by telling the truth? Bruce has said the site is full of uncorrected lies. I have been unable to locate an instance of the lie he mentioned and it is apparent that if the lie ever was in circulation there, it was corrected as soon as information that clarified the situation was published in the newspapers.

Perhaps they are cleverer than Bruce has implied and they don't do it by outright lying? What is their single worst argument of any importance? Is there an article on TJMK that seems particularly indefencible to you?

And I see no reason to assume that you are in the category of "Skeptic" - one the others I listed is more likely.

If I'm a sock puppet for the Italian judicery, then the conspiracy is clearly very deep. Not just all the police, the crime lab, the judges, the translators.... but JREF regulars as well. Are you seriously claiming that the Italian judicery, or Barbie spent a couple on months arguing with Nando Ronteltap about whether a fraudulent 1950's camera proved that "freedom is real" and therefore Darwin is false just in order to provide cover for my sockpuppetry? Fiona, me and a bunch of the others have been kicking around the JREF long before this thread and still hold out hope of kicking around the JREF in some distant future when we all go to work in rocket pants and this thread has finally been archived (may we all live so long).

Some are just ugly, cruel and envious individuals. The kind who take pleasure in seeing their betters humiliated and even destroyed, believing that the context and their faux-righteousness disguises their malice. I’ve never witnessed so many of them outing themselves at once - ever.

Who are these betters? Amanda? Raffaele? Chris Mellas? Marriot? Mignini? Perish the thought that people say cruel things about Mignini and publicly wish for his distruction.

 

[Agatha]

Meredith's parents and siblings are somehow complicit in this vast conspiracy you are alleging? Wow.

ETA who am I a sock puppet or shill for? I have no idea, so I'd be glad to be told.

 

[Kermit]

The Kercher family is difficult to fathom ...

Notwithstanding their loss, I’m afraid to say I don't perceive this silence of theirs as "dignified", at all. In my view, they could and should have made an effort to stop this grotesque farce in its tracks long ago, as soon as the prima facae evidence against Guede became known and he was caught while on the run in Germany.

Charlie or Chris or Bruce .... get out the hook or the gong or the fishnet hoop and gag this person!!

This is sincere Public Relations advice: if the supporters of Amanda want to win the hearts and minds of the undecided, then it is a seriously mistaken idea to include in your arguments or talking points criticism of the victim's family. I think that their silence throughout this process has really set them apart as people to be admired. I would think that most other persons, decided or undecided about the guilt of Amanda, Rudy and Raffaele, would feel the same.

 

[Fulcanelli]

The broader problem with Fulcanelli's reasoning is that it doesn't explain how Amanda and Raffaele participated in this sloppy, unplanned murder without leaving a pattern of physical evidence in the murder room, as Guede did, rather than a single, isolated trace on the bra fastener.

He explains it to you exactly as it has been explained to you many many times before already. You are trying to pull a sly trick here (an old one of yours) of bait and switch. Instead of using some established scientific understanding that a killer MUST leave forensic traces of themselves at a crime scene (which actually is NOT the case), you are trying to write a BRAND NEW scientific rule using Rudy Guede to prove it...'Rudy Gude' left 4 different samples of his DNA in the room, ergo anybody else involved must also leave at least 4 samples of their DNA in the room. Rudy left bloody fingerprints in the room, so anyone else involved MUST also leave bloody fingerprints in the room. Rudy left bloody footprints, so anyone else MUST leave bloody footprints in the room! '

This is a completely false premise. Rudy got close to the victim after she was stabbed and so stepped in the blood while it was fresh, hence his footprints. Rudy put his hands in the blood and with those hands then touched several items in the room afterwards. There is NO reason to assume others involved would have done that too, indeed, they were just as likely to step back right after the stabbing, to avoid the blood and then leave the room immediately to wash their hands. Rudy was also always going to leave more DNA, since he carried out the sexual assault which also caused contact with fluids which are one of the three possible different requirements to transfer DNA. Ditto with his DNA on the purse...his hands were wet with blood. That therefore, leaves only his two samples (on the sleeve of Meredith's top and on the main body of her bra) which is actually only one more then the number of samples Raffaele left, Amanda too if you also count her partial profile on the clasp.

Incidentally, Judge Massei does not actually rule out Amanda's and Raffaele's footprints and fingerprints from being in the room. He sites the fact that there are quite a number of partial footprints and fingerprints in the room that are too partial to be reliably connected to any individual. It therefore cannot be argued that there are no footprints or fingerprints of Raffaele or Amanda in the room. It can only be said there are no identifiable prints of theirs in the room.

 

[shuttlt]

Notwithstanding their loss, I’m afraid to say I don't perceive this silence of theirs as "dignified", at all. In my view, they could and should have made an effort to stop this grotesque farce in its tracks long ago, as soon as the prima facae evidence against Guede became known and he was caught while on the run in Germany.

Should they do more than Amanda did for Lumumba when he was locked up? Afterall, they don't KNOW that Amanda isn't the killer since they weren't there for the murder. How could they possibly say whether she is the killer or not?

 

[shuttlt]

Supernaut,

You are illustrating here the problem with taking the strong pro-Amanda position that there is literally no evidence against her and that no rational person with 5 minutes of familiarity with the case could possibly think her guilty. Not only do the police the prosecutors, the lab, and the judges have to be part of a conspiracy but so do the victims family!