Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[sol invictus]

So according to you folks, I should not be able to see the movement of darkened plasma along that horizon like I see in 171A trace images of the horizon, and I should not see them occurring *UNDER* the photosphere along any edge, correct?

According to me (and ben it sounds like), starting from the center of the 171A image and moving out you should see gradually increasing brightness - very slowly increasing at first, accelerating rapidly towards the edge. Then at some radius there will be a ring of max brightness, followed by decreasing brightness as you move further out in radius.

That bright ring can be inside or outside the radius of the sun's disk as defined by the photosphere. To determine that would require a calculation of the optical depth of the corona and chromosphere, as well as some information about their temperatures. I did a very crude mental estimate that said it should be a few pixels inside the edge of the photosphere disk (i.e. the radius of the bright 171A ring should be a little bit smaller than the radius of the photosphere disk), but I don't trust it much.

Did that answer your question?

 

[Tubbythin]

Then ben, you don't have a single pixel to stand on. Birkeland's solar model is going to *CRUSH* standard theory based on the few movies and images I have seen. I am absolutely certain that SDO is going to rewrite the book on solar physics.

You don't understand the basics of any fields of physics. You don't understand maths.You struggle to even construct coherent scientific sentences. You must have realized this by now. So what on Earth makes you so sure of yourself?

 

[GeeMack]

Then ben, you don't have a single pixel to stand on. Birkeland's solar model is going to *CRUSH* standard theory based on the few movies and images I have seen. I am absolutely certain that SDO is going to rewrite the book on solar physics.

Your crackpot conjecture is not Birkeland's solar model. It's dishonest for you to suggest it is.

 

[Michael Mozina]

You don't understand the basics of any fields of physics. You don't understand maths.You struggle to even construct coherent scientific sentences. You must have realized this by now. So what on Earth makes you so sure of yourself?

I'm sure because you folks are already running so scared, you can only attack the individual and everything in your statement is a lie.

 

[Tubbythin]

Because you folks are already running so scared, you can only attack the individual and everything in your statement is a lie.

I'm not running anywhere. I'm mostly ignoring your posts and reading the interesting and informative stuff other people say. Your unbelievable arrogance caught my attention though.
Do you really want me to provide evidence?

 

[GeeMack]

I'm sure because you folks are already running so scared, you can only attack the individual and everything in your statement is a lie.

He is challenging your qualifications to speak with any expertise on any issue of solar sciences or astrophysics. You have yet to demonstrate that you have any.

 

[ben m]

Then ben, you don't have a single pixel to stand on. Birkeland's solar model is going to *CRUSH* standard theory based on the few movies and images I have seen. I am absolutely certain that SDO is going to rewrite the book on solar physics.

Oh good! More photos and movies! I know from experience that every time Michael Mozina sees something in a photo, everyone is immediately convinced no matter how many laws of physics are violated! The Nobel committee has a special hotline open which awaits those red-letter days that Michael Mozina looks at a photo---it always rewrites the book on physics!

Especially if his adorable youngsters have helped with the pixel counting!

(Have you lost interest entirely in Sol's opacity calculation?)

 

[ben m]

The overall outline of surface of the sun is clearly *INSIDE OF* that outer photosphere/chromosphere boundary, top, bottom, left and right. Whatever movements we observe along the ridge have to occur inside the surface of the photosphere.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Care to illustrate that with my ASCII art, Michael?

For example: "inside of"? You mean "at a smaller projected radius than"? So what? Some things in front of the sun end up (in projection) in front of the center of the Sun. Other things in front of the Sun end up (in projection) between us and the edge of the Sun. Other things in front of the Sun end up distal to or proximal to the edge. It's all in front of the Sun, Michael.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Oh good! More photos and movies!

Why did we bother to put up SDO in the first place if you intended to simply ignore the images and what they tell you?

Yes or no should we see the mass flows around the opaque limb under that orange chromosphere in 171A like we see in 171A in Trace? If the movement of mass under that red ring won't convince you that the "transition region' is located under the surface of the photosphere, what will?

 

[sol invictus]

Why did we bother to put up SDO in the first place if you intended to simply ignore the images and what they tell you?

Who's "ignoring" images? Ben just provided you with a very simple geometrical explanation of why there's a bright ring in, for example, the 171A images, and why that ring may be at smaller radius (on the image) than the edge of the photosphere or chromosphere (on the image).

Yes or no should we see the mass flows around the opaque limb under that orange chromosphere in 171A like we see in 171A in Trace? If the movement of mass under that red ring won't convince you that the "transition region' is located under the surface of the photosphere, what will?

I don't understand the question.

Are we going to get back to opacity, or have you abandoned that?

 

[GeeMack]

Why did we bother to put up SDO in the first place if you intended to simply ignore the images and what they tell you?

Yes or no should we see the mass flows around the opaque limb under that orange chromosphere in 171A like we see in 171A in Trace? If the movement of mass under that red ring won't convince you that the "transition region' is located under the surface of the photosphere, what will?

You can't see anything under the photosphere. It's opaque. You may find the definition of photosphere in several places on the Internet. Here's a simple glossary of terms. Look it up.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I don't understand the question.

All TRACE 171A limb images show mass flow movements that extend up many kilometers in the atmosphere. SDO should show those same mass flow movement in relationship to that chromosphere/photosphere boundary. We should see those occurring along the opaque limb in SDO too.

Are we going to get back to opacity, or have you abandoned that?

I haven't abandoned it yet, I was simply curious how else we might differentiate standard theory from a Birkeland solar model and what it might take from the SDO program to convince you folks.

Honestly sol, I've seen the first light of SDO and I can assure you that you're on the wrong side of history. Gas model theory is history.

 

[GeeMack]

Why did we bother to put up SDO in the first place if you intended to simply ignore the images and what they tell you?

Oh, I did a thorough analysis of that image. Remember, I was the one who pointed out that you claimed to be able to see through 100,000 kilometers of plasma? Remember I told you there are some problems with that image? Remember I offered to help you understand what the problems are? Remember I said I had looked at the color layers separately? Have you done that, Michael? Have you actually analyzed that image as thoroughly as other people have? As I have? It doesn't seem like you have.

 

[Tubbythin]

Honestly sol, I've seen the first light of SDO and I can assure you that you're on the wrong side of history. Gas model theory is history.

So much talk, so little content.

 

[sol invictus]

All TRACE 171A limb images show mass flow movements that extend up many kilometers in the atmosphere. SDO should show those same mass flow movement in relationship to that chromosphere/photosphere boundary. We should see those occurring along the opaque limb in SDO too.

Sorry, still not following.

Just a suggestion, Michael. It's should be very clear by now that you have some interpretation of these images and movies, and the rest of us have a different one. When you describe some feature of the images in language that makes sense in your interpretation, it's more or less incomprehensible to the rest of us. So if you want to discuss some feature, I'd advise either posting a crop of the image, or describing it in language that doesn't refer to anything other than what's going on in the image itself.

Let me repeat something again - the argument ben gave allows the bright ring visible in the 171A images to have smaller radius than the chromo/photosphere disk does. Do you understand what I'm saying? If - as may be the case - the green on the SDO image we were discussing was from a 171A image overlaid on a longer wavelength image showing the photosphere, then that green rim being inside the edge is just what you might expect based on Ben's argument. Do you understand that?

I haven't abandoned it yet

Still waiting.

 

[GeeMack]

So much talk, so little content.

He's been saying that for years. Every time he gets a new picture to play with he starts crowing about how this is the one that'll devastate solar science as we know it. We'll all be crawling to him begging for forgivness for doubting him. Those of us who see the light before the ivory tower of astrophysics collapses will go down in history as the pioneers of the EU/solid surface Sun scientific revolution. That Nobel Prize is just... around... the... corner.

If only he could get, you know, one, just one professional physicist on board.

 

[ben m]

Yes or no should we see the mass flows around the opaque limb under that orange chromosphere in 171A like we see in 171A in Trace?

"Yes or no: we should see cloud flows both above and below the ocean in satellite photos of Earth?" No. We should see white spots all over the photo; only an ideologue would interpret those white spots as being under the ocean rather than in above it. There is no possible geometry in which a white spot could be uniquely identified as being under the ocean.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Sorry, still not following.

Just a suggestion, Michael. It's should be very clear by now that you have some interpretation of these images and movies, and the rest of us have a different one. When you describe some feature of the images in language that makes sense in your interpretation, it's more or less incomprehensible to the rest of us. So if you want to discuss some feature, I'd advise either posting a crop of the image, or describing it in language that doesn't refer to anything other than what's going on in the image itself.

If I had access to all the all the hi-res movies, it would be a lot easier to demonstrate, believe me.

All TRACE 171A (all iron ion) images of the limb show coronal loop and mass flow movement in the atmosphere something like this:

http://trace.lmsal.com/Public/Gallery/Images/movies/T171_991127.mov

If we can see that same movement of near the opaque limbs in SDO, and they consistently appear under the chromosphere/photosphere boundary, would that convince you that the transition region is under the photosphere?

Let me repeat something again - the argument ben gave allows the bright ring visible in the 171A images to have smaller radius than the chromo/photosphere disk does. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Ya, and do you understand what you're saying? How much difference would you expect to see between the wavelengths involved in those two images? Do you really think you're going to squeeze that lame argument hard enough to get 4800KM of difference?

 

[Reality Check]

Did you cherry pick the image to support your fantasy

Continuing on from this post:

Thank you Michael Mozina for the image
[http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/sdo/sd01.jpg]
but all it does is confirm what everyone has been saying:
In order to see the inner edge of your "green line", the light from that edge has to pass through ~98,820 kilometers of plasma.
All that you need to confirm this is high school geometry.




I take it that you are admitting that you cherry picked this image just to support your fantasy* and are purposely ignoring the first image in the public relations image gallery which has no "green line"?

• Did you cherry pick the image to support your fantasy?
  So far the answer is yes !

*A fantasy because it violates thermodynamics, e.g see Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K ) and predicts absolutely nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 50 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.

We have already pointed some simple facts about this image:

• In order to see the inner edge of your "green line", the light from that edge has to pass through ~98,820 kilometers of plasma.
• This is a public relations image. It has been altered to look nice for the public. This means that it is not a reliable source of information. You should be looking at the actual scientific data (Math Bunnies & Image Bunnies).
• Ziggurat pointed out (I actually like the other green area on the left hand of your image):
  

  Tell me, Michael: in all your careful image analysis, did you ever figure out what this bit I circled in blue was?
  
  http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_11924bd864a2b9c8e.jpg
  
  Why, it's the same stuff that you claim is coming from below the photosphere. Except it's deeper. Which means it's below your iron surface. Maybe your iron surface is transparent, or maybe there's a hole in your shell.
  
  Or maybe your analysis is founded upon unsupported assumptions.

  So the only reason that the "green line" is not a surface feature like the other green areas in your image is because you say it is not. Given your obvious incompetence in analyzing images (sub-photosphere "mountain ranges" in RD movies of the corona !) and ignorance of physics this is not very credible.

So lets add a few other points:

• The "green line" is not consistently thick all the way around the rim of the Sun. In fact there are a couple of points where it does not seem exist!
  I have stated this before but the implication seems to have escaped you. According to your interpretation, this means that your impossible iron crust has to be poking out of the ~6000 K hot photosphere.
• Look at your image. There is Ziggurat's separate green area that you say is a surface feature (and why is your "green line" not a surface feature?).
  Notice that there is a broad band of bright green in the center of your line with less bright green to either side. How does your fantasy explain this?

And the killer point:

Limb darkening rears its head yet again!
If the "green line" was a layer above your impossible iron crust then we would be seeing it through varying thickesses of plasma. This is the same effect that causes the limb darkening of the photosphere.
But the "green line" is fairly uniform in brightness from its inner edge to the outside (but not along its length as noted above). There are even patches where the inner edge is brighter than the outer edge.

This means that the "green line" is not a feature that penetrates through the corona, chromosphere, transition layer or even photosphere.
​

My guess:
The "green line" is just where the corona gets hot enough to excite enough Fe ions to emit enough light in the 193A passband to be detected by SDO.

If we just had the 193A passband in the image then we would see a mottled green disk that was slightly brighter along the rim because the light is being detected from thicker section of plasma. IOW: Looking directly down on the corona there is a thickness X of plasma emitting the 193A light. As we look toward the rim X increases (see the simple geometry in the previous posts) and there is a bit more light detected.

The construction of the false colur image by including the other 2 passbands then hides most of the 193A passband leaving a partial ring and the brightest areas from the middle of the image.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Actually sol...

You'll need 6000km of distance to be consistent with LMSAL claim about the solar moss starting 1200KM *above* the photosphere.