Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[ben m]

Before MM finishes getting bored and going away, I have one thing that may interest him. I want to emphasize exactly how dumb his the-photosphere-is-superheated-and-transparent idea is. I'd say it's even dumber than claims like "magnetic reconnection doesn't occur", "magnetic forces move the galaxies around", and "large DC currents flow in the Sun" (I'd say it's about on par with "the sun is a sphere of solid metallic iron")

Perhaps we can cite some authority figure MM trusts?

http://www.spp.ee.kth.se/publications/pdfs/TRITA-EPP-88-04.pdf

"[Visual light] derives from solid bodies (e.g., planets) but to a much larger extent from stellar photospheres which usually are in a state of low-energy plasmas (< 10 eV)"

(figure caption of an x-ray image of the Sun) "As the photosphere emits very little in x-rays it is dark. The light regions in the picture derives from the plasma in the chromosphere and corona".

"Quoting pop science articles by Hannes Alfven" is an incredibly dumb way to do science, but in this case he happens to be right. As all of our boring calculations have been showing. The photosphere emits visible light because it's a blackbody at a temperature that emits visible light. It doesn't emit high-energy radiation; we see high-energy radiation in images, but that's because high-energy radiation is coming from the corona *in front of* the photosphere.

 

[GeeMack]

Thank you Michael Mozina for the image but all it does is confirm what everyone has been saying:
In order to see the inner edge of your "green line", the light from that edge has to pass through ~98,820 kilometers of plasma.

Uh, not to be too much a stickler for details, but Michael has modified his claim a bit. Now he's claiming to be able to see through about 83,000 kilometers of plasma.

 

[Michael Mozina]

If we do that, I don't think we should start with anyone's claim. We should just take standard solar model parameters, estimate the relevant optical depths etc., and see where it leads us. We'll be limited by the quality of the accessible data and the fact that we dont have supercomputers to simulate the physics on, but I think we could probably get somewhere.

But before embarking on that we need to finish our conversation about your model, which after all is the topic of this thread.

Ok, I'm not ready start a whole thread (yet), but just out of morbid curiosity, how did you intend to get me to give you even a single pixel underneath of the photosphere after that whole photoionization conversation we had? I had to plug in my model to ionize the atmosphere to get a few meters out of you. How did you intend to get me to give you even one single pixel?

Don't even worry about anything else, I just want to hear your theory on how it gets through one pixel.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Uh, not to be too much a stickler for details, but Michael has modified his claim a bit. Now he's claiming to be able to see through about 83,000 kilometers of plasma.

And as usual GM is clueless because he has *NEVER* properly understood the light source of anything.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Before MM finishes getting bored and going away, I have one thing that may interest him.

After that whole photoionization conversation, I'm curious how you expect me to give you even the first pixel of the SDO image. Please start there.

 

[Tubbythin]

And as usual GM is clueless because he has *NEVER* properly understood the light source of anything.

What do you think the light source is?

 

[sol invictus]

Ok, I'm not ready start a whole thread (yet), but just out of morbid curiosity, how did you intend to get me to give you even a single pixel underneath of the photosphere after that whole photoionization conversation we had?

If by "pixel" you mean "3.5m or more along the line of sight in the photosphere", then no.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Ben? Will any of those iron ion wavelengths travel more than 1KM through the photosphere?

 

[ben m]

Well, I would definitely enjoy seeing you start with LMSAL's claim that the iron lines start at about 1200KM over the photosphere and use that number to explain the SDO image. That would be entertaining and it puts me into the role of skeptic. I don't think you can stand the heat, but please, by all means go for it. Sooner or later you're going to need to do that anyway, so you might as well start now.

Sure, Michael, this is utterly bog-standard geometry. Say looking at a shell 1000km thick radius. The shell is rather dim---not too many photons per unit mass---and emitting isotropically. Let's call the quantity "photons per second per cubic kilometer" D, as in Density. Let's say that you look at this layer with a bunch of one-arcsecond pixels, which makes the Sun about 2000 pixels across.

When you're looking straight at the "center" of the Sun's disk, your line-of-sight is passes through 1000km of this material. Your one-arcsecond pixel is collecting light from a slab of corona of size 700km x 700km x 1000km. That slab is emitting Dx4.9x10^8 photons per second.

Look over to (say) a point 700 pixels from the center or 300 pixels from the edge. In this pixel, you're not looking straight down through a rectangular slab of corona, you're looking diagonally through it. Your pixel now contains a parallelepiped of plasma, whose top is 700km wide and 980km long and which is 1000km thick. That parallelepiped has a larger volume and is emitting MORE light than the face-on one --- Dx6.8x10^8 photons per second in this case. So we're getting brighter towards the edge.

Look further, to a point (say) 980 pixels from the center of the Sun image. In this pixel, you're looking through an extremely elongated parallelepiped whose dimensions are 3500km x 700km x 1000km, emitting Dx2.4x10^9 photons per second. Note that this is much, much more light than we were getting in the pixels at the center of the Sun!

Past 980, this geometry tells us that the thin shell should appear brighter and brighter and brighter, on a per-pixel basis, as you near the limb---as each pixel slices through a longer and longer slab of the emitter. At some point, one pixel might be looking through a slab so thick that its far end's emissions are all reabsorbed by intervening stuff, so the brightening can "max out". At some yet-further point, you're looking all the way "past" the opaque photosphere---your line-of-sight never hits anything opaque at all---and you may be seeing both the near-side corona and the far-side corona, so the brightness may "suddenly" increase in about one pixel at the edge. That depends on the opacity. So yes, all of these features are standard model stuff. That's how it always works: optically thin layers always show limb brightening, optically thick layers always show limb darkening.

Can we compare this model numerically to the TRACE image? NO, IT'S A FREAKING PR PHOTO. The JPG's pixel brightnesses, however you want to measure that, are some highly-processed (possibly stretched, contrast-enhanced, color-balanced, etc.) thing which is far from being data.

 

[ben m]

Ben? Will any of those iron ion wavelengths travel more than 1KM through the photosphere?

What photosphere? You've been telling us you have no idea what the photosphere is.

The standard model photosphere is opaque to everything---radio, microwave, IR, visible, UV, FUV, VUV, EUV, soft-x-ray, gamma ray---after about 300 400 km. As Sol worked out for you, hard UV can't make it more than a few meters.

For the UV stuff, this is true no matter what the photosphere is made of at 6000K. For optical/IR it's much more complicated and composition-dependent.

 

[sol invictus]

Looks like ben stole my thunder...

That's how it always works: optically thin layers always show limb brightening, optically thick layers always show limb darkening.

I'll admit to not knowing that before today. On the upside, I figured it out for myself in a few minutes of thinking (hence my earlier post upthread).

 

[GeeMack]

The standard model photosphere is opaque to everything---radio, microwave, IR, visible, UV, FUV, VUV, EUV, soft-x-ray, gamma ray---after about 300 400 km. As Sol worked out for you, hard UV can't make it more than a few meters.

Uh, yes. And we haven't seen any evidence of any sort that there is something different going on in Michael's photosphere which would allow him to see through 83,000 kilometers of plasma of any kind. Yet he claims to do just that.

Speaking of opacity, Michael, you did say it is the Achilles heel of standard solar theory. You mentioned how you are going to "do a little math" and destroy mainstream theory. Now that we've debunked your unqualified argument about that SDO image, how's that destroying project coming along?

Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.

 

[Michael Mozina]

What photosphere? You've been telling us you have no idea what the photosphere is.

The standard model photosphere is opaque to everything---radio, microwave, IR, visible, UV, FUV, VUV, EUV, soft-x-ray, gamma ray---after about 300 400 km. As Sol worked out for you, hard UV can't make it more than a few meters.

For the UV stuff, this is true no matter what the photosphere is made of at 6000K. For optical/IR it's much more complicated and composition-dependent.

Shall I take that as a "no"?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Uh, yes. And we haven't seen any evidence of any sort that there is something different going on in Michael's photosphere which would allow him to see through 83,000 kilometers of plasma of any kind. Yet he claims to do just that.

Speaking of opacity, Michael, you did say it is the Achilles heel of standard solar theory. You mentioned how you are going to "do a little math" and destroy mainstream theory. Now that we've debunked your unqualified argument about that SDO image, how's that destroying project coming along?

I don't even have the least bit of interest in that project after looking at the SDO images and I sure won't be doing your bidding.

 

[Michael Mozina]

So according to you folks, I should not be able to see the movement of darkened plasma along that horizon like I see in 171A trace images of the horizon, and I should not see them occurring *UNDER* the photosphere along any edge, correct?

 

[ben m]

Shall I take that as a "no"?

If you were asking about Fe IX 171A emission in a 6000K-ish photosphere, then YES; 1 km is much, much greater than 3.5m.

If you were asking about (I dunno) some visible-light line from some other iron state, going through a helium/neon mixture at T=600K, then NO.

If you were asking about something else, then be more specific.

 

[GeeMack]

So according to you folks, I should not be able to see the movement of darkened plasma along that horizon like I see in 171A trace images of the horizon, and I should not see them occurring *UNDER* the photosphere along any edge, correct?

There is no seeing anything under the photosphere. It is, by definition, opaque.

 

[Michael Mozina]

If you were asking about Fe IX 171A emission in a 6000K-ish photosphere, then YES; 1 km is much, much greater than 3.5m.

Then ben, you don't have a single pixel to stand on. Birkeland's solar model is going to *CRUSH* standard theory based on the few movies and images I have seen. I am absolutely certain that SDO is going to rewrite the book on solar physics.

 

[ben m]

So according to you folks, I should not be able to see the movement of darkened plasma along that horizon like I see in 171A trace images of the horizon, and I should not see them occurring *UNDER* the photosphere along any edge, correct?

Generally speaking, when I aim a telescope at a sphere---which pixels can I look at so as to be sure that any light in those pixels comes from "under the photosphere"? Things outside of the sphere are always in front of the surface of the sphere, and therefore things outside the sphere are also in front of anything under the surface.

ETA: It'd be like looking at a blurry satellite photo of the Earth, seeing a white spot, and saying, "AHA! If the ocean was opaque I would not be able to see this white spot!" Dude, there are such things as "clouds", and in all cases the clouds are between the satellite and the ocean.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Generally speaking, when I aim a telescope at a sphere---which pixels can I look at so as to be sure that any light in those pixels comes from "under the photosphere"? Things outside of the sphere are always in front of the surface of the sphere, and therefore things outside the sphere are also in front of anything under the surface.

What I really need is a *MOVIE* with all these same wavelength's including the photosphere/chromosphere boundary. So far I haven't found one, but I'm sure NASA and LMSAL have them and I'm sure they show movement all along that inside edge too, just like the TRACE movies I tried to get Tim to look at. The overall outline of surface of the sun is clearly *INSIDE OF* that outer photosphere/chromosphere boundary, top, bottom, left and right. Whatever movements we observe along the ridge have to occur inside the surface of the photosphere.