Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Alt+F4]

I have photographs of the gloves that were used but never changed. They are no doubt contaminated. There is video evidence showing the gloves being contaminated and used to collect more evidence. The investigators have been proven time and time again to be incompetent.

Unless you can see the movement of DNA from one place to another in that video, none of what you are saying is scientific proof of contamination.

I'm assuming that RS's defense team wants the new judge to throw out the bra clasp in the appeal because of contamination. Has there ever been a case in Italy (or anywhere DNA testing is done) where DNA evidence was thrown out just based on what was seen in a police video?

Even if there isn't enough DNA on the other profiles to make an exact match to members of the forensic collection team, the lab workers or other cases being worked on at the time, the simple fact that if RS's defense team attempted to make the connection it might raise reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury.

I can't understand why RS's defense team is relying on a video prove science when there is real science out there that might back up their client's story.

 

[shuttlt]

I am working on some videos. I will have them on the site soon. I will post them here also. I have the photos of the gloves on the site right now.

I've seen the photos of the gloves with the dust on the fingertips. I'll keep an eye out for the videos.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

They didn't realise that at the time. And the crime scene isn't the place to perform a close examination of portable objects that need quickly bagging and sending off to the lab. They picked up the bra, bloody, ripped and torn and bagged that right away to be sent off for testing. It wasn't until it was closely examined at the lab (the proper place to do so) it was realised that the clasp was missing. Yes, on the first day a clasp had been seen and recorded on the floor, but at that time it wasn't known to have come off 'the' bra.

They didn't decide to come back in 6 weeks, they didn't set the date...they had to wait for the defence to okay the inspection and arrange attendance if they wanted it.

Every time you try to explain this, you make it sound even more ridiculous.

Your statement - "the proper place to do so"

That statement would make any credible investigator laugh.

Keep trying to defend leaving a vital piece of evidence left on the floor. It really exposes your extreme bias.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Unless you can see the movement of DNA from one place to another in that video, none of what you are saying is scientific proof of contamination.

I'm assuming that RS's defense team wants the new judge to throw out the bra clasp in the appeal because of contamination. Has there ever been a case in Italy (or anywhere DNA testing is done) where DNA evidence was thrown out just based on what was seen in a police video?

Even if there isn't enough DNA on the other profiles to make an exact match to members of the forensic collection team, the lab workers or other cases being worked on at the time, the simple fact that if RS's defense team attempted to make the connection it might raise reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury.

I can't understand why RS's defense team is relying on a video prove science when there is real science out there that might back up their client's story.

The piece of evidence was mishandled. Everything else is irrelevant. They screwed up. This will be reviewed on appeal. It may take the supreme court to do this on the second appeal but this clasp will eventually be thrown out.

 

[quadraginta]

I spoke with the authors and the signers of the open letter more extensively, as well as speaking with Chris Mellas again and the consistent story is that the files were asked for and not turned over to the defense. If some people here do not want to accept that this is true, that is not my concern.

Consistency can be a virtue. It wouldn't hurt for the Knox apologists to engage in it more often.

Are you claiming that these indispensable ".fsa" files which seem to obsess you so were specifically requested by the Sollecito/Knox defense team? Four times? Were they requested through the offices of the court? All four times?

If not, why not? If so, why is it so difficult to provide court documentation to that effect, instead of your personal third-hand assurances based on hearsay from sources already demonstrated to be both unreliable and duplicitous?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

I've seen the photos of the gloves with the dust on the fingertips. I'll keep an eye out for the videos.

It's a hell of a lot more than dust on those gloves. Then they threw the gloves on the floor of the already trashed the cottage and left.

Then they came back and used luminol on the trashed contaminated cottage.

Throw bloody gloves on the floor, then come back six weeks later and use the luminol. How many other places in the cottage did they throw gloves? The entire crime scene was mishandled. It was very poorly investigated.

 

[shuttlt]

The piece of evidence was mishandled.

Do you mean mishandled in the sense of likely to cause contamination? If so, where do you think such large quantities of Raffaele's DNA came from?

Everything else is irrelevant. They screwed up. This will be reviewed on appeal. It may take the supreme court to do this on the second appeal but this clasp will eventually be thrown out.

Personally, I don't see why failing to collect it at the first go should result in it being thrown out. To say more one would have to have more complete crime scene footage including the audio.

Apologies to drag things back a couple of pages:

The Italian supreme court. If you are a suspect you must be offered an attorney.

The police treated her as a suspect. They did not formally make her a suspect so that they could avoid dealing with an attorney.

This will be addressed on appeal. I am not making this up. This is listed in Amanda's appeal.

Could you post the section of Amanda's appeal that you are referring to?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Consistency can be a virtue. It wouldn't hurt for the Knox apologists to engage in it more often.

Are you claiming that these indispensable ".fsa" files which seem to obsess you so were specifically requested by the Sollecito/Knox defense team? Four times? Were they requested through the offices of the court? All four times?

If not, why not? If so, why is it so difficult to provide court documentation to that effect, instead of your personal third-hand assurances based on hearsay from sources already demonstrated to be both unreliable and duplicitous?

Why don't you just wait for the appeal. Nothing that you hear on this board will convince you.

For the record, we are very consistent. The truth doesn't change. We can repeat it to you 100 times and you won't hear it but it still remains the same. The truth. Very consistent.

 

[Kermit]

It's a hell of a lot more than dust on those gloves.

Yeah, it called dried bits of blood which came from the bra clasp which is being held in the other hand.

That's not Hilades1's famous household dust there.

Then they came back and used luminol on the trashed contaminated cottage. Throw bloody gloves on the floor, then come back six weeks later and use the luminol.

The luminol was applied in the first days following the crime. Don't you remember that during the December visit some of the stains had disappeared?

 

[quadraginta]

The landlord was awarded compensation by the court...they were also represented as victims in the trial.

That is outstanding. Here the guy would be SOL unless someone with pockets could get nailed in a civil suit. Good luck with that.

 

[shuttlt]

It's a hell of a lot more than dust on those gloves. Then they threw the gloves on the floor of the already trashed the cottage and left.

Then they came back and used luminol on the trashed contaminated cottage.

Throw bloody gloves on the floor, then come back six weeks later and use the luminol. How many other places in the cottage did they throw gloves? The entire crime scene was mishandled. It was very poorly investigated.

Without either disputing or accepting what you say, it does seem remarkable that given, the minute amount of Raffaele's DNA in the apartment, relative to the total amount that it should be Raffaele's in such large quantities that contaminated the clasp. It's certainly possible, but it is surely not probable? It could be that they are innocent, but this is the kind of evidence that gets people convicted.

 

[Alt+F4]

They screwed up.

"Screwed up" is neither a scientific or legal term. The bra clasp won't be thrown out if the only "evidence" for contamination is a police video.

Again, is there any legal precedence for DNA contamination based only on what is scene in a video?

 

[shuttlt]

Why don't you just wait for the appeal. Nothing that you hear on this board will convince you.

Surely this goes both ways?

For the record, we are very consistent. The truth doesn't change.

Do any of us know the TRUTH^TM?

 

[Fulcanelli]

I had forgotten about the fish. That's a strange one. Gutting a fish isn't the action of a man whose idea of cooking is throwing some pasta in boiling water, yet his kitchen draw says otherwise. Perhaps he couldn't be bothered with cooking normally, but was trying to impress Amanda. Gutting fish though is the kind of outward bound skill that one might pick up without having any interest in cooking. Did him and his dad go on fishing trips? If so, he might be more comfortable using a pen knife to gut the fish. Anyway, this is all speculation and if it was important it would have been covered before.


True. I'm sure I saw fresh pasta in the supermarket last time I was in Italy though. In any case, you don't necessarily need a knife to make a pizza.

Well, it makes a mockery of Raffaele's claim that he feels sick and faint at the merest sight of blood (and so couldn't possibly have been involved in Meredith's murder), doesn't it?

Yes, I'll accept he may have cooked to impress Amanda. For Italians, the food 'defines' Italy. When I went to Italy (5 years ago now) I went with an Italian and so met nothing but Italians. Whenever I met them (there were many), the first question they'd ask me is "What do you think of the food?". If it wasn't the first question (it mostly was) it was the second, with the other being "How do you like Italy?" It was Italy - food - Italy - food in equal status, the two cannot be separated, each is symbiotic to the other. Every country has it's national dishes and has pride in them...Italy take it further and 'defines' itself by it, it's sacred.

Even pizza needs a knife You need to cut/chop those tomatoes, that ham, that pepperami, those peppers, that rocket, those onions, those...

 

[Kermit]

Are you telling me that you argue on your site about Mignini "taking the Monster of Florence" case, when you have never actually read sufficiently on it to understand that Mignini is a Perugian Prosecutor, not a Florentine Prosecutor, and he never took on the MoF case?

You give me a headache. You always deflect everything with useless garbage .... Look! I made another powerpoint!! Wow! This time it shows spiderman!

.
I take it that you are not going to correct your website, having been shown yet another "fact" of yours which is incorrect and misleading.

If that is what your quest for truth is all about, enjoy your trip.

 

[Fulcanelli]

I spoke with the authors and the signers of the open letter more extensively, as well as speaking with Chris Mellas again and the consistent story is that the files were asked for and not turned over to the defense. If some people here do not want to accept that this is true, that is not my concern.

Really? Why are these signers so shy of discussing it anywhere else...openly? It's like, they published their letter and then went into hiding. Why can't they publicly discuss it somewhere, like...well, like here? Why the cloak and dagger? If they made themselves available, they could answer many questions.

And as for signers...what, you mean you've spoken to 'both' of them?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Do you mean mishandled in the sense of likely to cause contamination? If so, where do you think such large quantities of Raffaele's DNA came from?


Personally, I don't see why failing to collect it at the first go should result in it being thrown out. To say more one would have to have more complete crime scene footage including the audio.

Apologies to drag things back a couple of pages:

Could you post the section of Amanda's appeal that you are referring to?

you are here on the board and you stated

"I'm not interested in who the killer is"

Why am I debating with you over all of these details? Like I said, you would make a horrible judge. The trial would never end.

If you don't understand why it was important to properly collect a vital piece of evidence then I cannot help you. The bra was cut off the victim in a extremely violent attack. The bra was vital evidence. The clasp is part of the bra. It should have been collected and it wasn't.

Ask any investigator if this was a mistake. If they are credible, they will say yes.

It's funny, On one of Kermit's childish powerpoint presentations on PMF, either Michael or himself admits that the clasp should have been collected. But they must have forgotten that they said that.

Why does the clasp have all of that extra DNA on it that was nowhere to be found on the bra itself?

Maybe that wouldn't be a mystery if they were both collected properly.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Okay, I think some are getting confused here. I didn't say 1400 RFU. I said 1400 pg (picograms) which is 1.4 ng (nanograms). RFU is completely different and relates to the strength of the peaks in the chart.

Below 200 pg (picograms) is generally considered to be LCN (Low Copy Number). In this case, it was 1400 pg (picograms). And Raffaele's own expert admitted on the stand that he could get profiles from as low as 50 pg (picograms) without amplification.

Thanks for the clarification. It would appear that there was some misunderstandings between everyone involved here.


I should have been using pg instead of RFU for my argument regarding the amount of DNA found on the clasp.

Now, back to my point: Raffaele's DNA was in a much higher concentration than that of any of the 3 roommates (including Amanda), or Meredith's BF, or Rudy, etc. Raffaele's DNA must have been transferred from somewhere. At this point, the only reasonable source is Raffaele himself. There is no reason to believe his dust/dirt/fingerprints would contain any more DNA than that of the dust/dirt/fingerprints of the girls who lived in the cottage and whose dust/dirt/fingerprints were therefore in a much higher abundance than Raffaele's (who'd only been in the cottage a handful of times).




(I realize this was perhaps addressed already in the past few pages since Fulcanelli posted. I'm slowly catching up on the day's posts and wanted to, at the very least, acknowledge my mistake and reaffirm that my point is still valid)

 

[shuttlt]

Well, it makes a mockery of Raffaele's claim that he feels sick and faint at the merest sight of blood (and so couldn't possibly have been involved in Meredith's murder), doesn't it?

Sure, but then that is a pretty weak argument even without the fish. "What's that Mr Dahmer? You can't stand the site of blood? I'm terribly sorry to have bothered you, please go about your business."

Yes, I'll accept he may have cooked to impress Amanda. For Italians, the food 'defines' Italy. When I went to Italy (5 years ago now) I went with an Italian and so met nothing but Italians. Whenever I met them (there were many), the first question they'd ask me is "What do you think of the food?". If it wasn't the first question (it mostly was) it was the second, with the other being "How do you like Italy?" It was Italy - food - Italy - food in equal status, the two cannot be separated, each is symbiotic to the other. Every country has it's national dishes and has pride in them...Italy take it further and 'defines' itself by it, it's sacred.

The English always talk about the weather to foreigners, it doesn't make us meteorologists.

Even pizza needs a knife
Maybe he liked margherita?

 

[Kermit]

For the record, we are very consistent. The truth doesn't change.

.
TRANSLATION: FOA and The Entourage never correct their websites when factual errors are pointed out.

If that is what your particular version of the truth is all about, go for it. It won't help Amanda much, even if it helps make you feel part of the tribe.