Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Alt+F4]

That is an understatement. They pointed to the missing part when they lifted it before putting it in the collection bag. The same cameraman had zoomed in on the clasp earlier when it was discovered under the body. Presumably the same forensic team was also there since there was testimony that they didn't move from room to room.

There have been many documented cases where a piece of evidence was contaminated by the DNA of those who collected it or tested it at the lab. Why hasn't RS's defense team tried to connect the unknown DNA on the clasp with the forensic team in the video?

 

[shuttlt]

It's like trying to communicate via Abbott & Costello routine.

This would make the debate more fun, and I can't see it would be a hindrance to good communication. I'll kick things off......

Who's the killer?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

.
What does "Libby" Johnson have to do with how many times these supposedly key files were asked for?

Did she have contact with Amanda's Italian defence team? Or is this information about the 4 requests really just from Chris Mellas (which is what I assume, and I'm fine with that .... it would surprise me that you consult "Libby" Johnson about defence requests).

You are like a broken record. Halides states the facts about the files. It is not his job to try and prove something to you that you will never accept as the truth no matter what he says.

I took another look at your powerpoint presentations on PMF today. They remind me of my kids school projects. My sons are 9 and 12. That is the garbage that PMF uses to prove their points. Michael thinks they are great. You might want to take the presentation about the pillow off of PMF. I have completely destroyed that theory. I showed actual photographic evidence. You circled where you thought a shoe print might have been with a red line. You showed no actual shoe print, but that didn't matter, the guilters loved your presentation. PMF is the number one source for most of the guilters. You are all a very interesting group of people.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

There have been many documented cases where a piece of evidence was contaminated by the DNA of those who collected it or tested it at the lab. Why hasn't RS's defense team tried to connect the unknown DNA on the clasp with the forensic team in the video?

I have photographs of the gloves that were used but never changed. They are no doubt contaminated. There is video evidence showing the gloves being contaminated and used to collect more evidence. The investigators have been proven time and time again to be incompetent.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

This is kind of embarrassing, but I have never watched the collection. Do we get audio of the guys in the camera car instructing the guys in the crime scene as to what to pick up?

Are you telling me that you are here arguing about the clasp and you have never watched the the bra clasp collection video?

 

[Dan O.]

This is kind of embarrassing, but I have never watched the collection. Do we get audio of the guys in the camera car instructing the guys in the crime scene as to what to pick up?

There is audio on the tape but most segments releases to the news are video only.


I was incorrect about the time of the bra clasp discovery:

Nov 3, 2007
01:22:30 .. 01:22:41 - Collecting bra SexLiesMurder#Part 4 9:02, DateLine Trial#Part 4 02:42
02:24:41 .. 02:24:47 - Bra clasp on floor SexLiesMurder#Part 4 9:22, DateLine Trial#Part 3 0:18, DateLine Trial#Part 4 2:45

Dec 18, 2007
No date or time - Collecting Bra clasp from under lamp cord SexLiesMurder#Part 4 19:47-SexLiesMurder#Part 5

 

[Kermit]

Kermit,

Can't we give Chris points for effort or something? He is clearly having email conversations with people involved in the case, and clearly feels bound by confidentiality in regard to those conversations.

.
Give him credit, that's fine with me.

My issue is that the quality of his information is often poor. A good example are the links he provides to support his scientific opinions ... links which often say the contrary of what he states.

Another example we see right here on this page: why would he talk to "Libby" Johnson and the supposed signers of the "open letter" about how many times Amanda's defence asked the prosecution for certain information ... what does Johnson know about these requests? How would she know?

 

[shuttlt]

You are like a broken record. Halides states the facts about the files. It is not his job to try and prove something to you that you will never accept as the truth no matter what he says.

Bruce, Halides doesn't seem to be trying to prove the issues that Kermit is asking about to anyone. "Facts" whose only support is that you, or Chris has asserted them are hardly worthy of the name. It has nothing to do with proving it to Kermit. The origins of the open letter really shouldn't be a secret. Who ever heard of an open letter, whose recipient is a secret and which is withdrawn for copyright reasons?

 

[shuttlt]

I have photographs of the gloves that were used but never changed. They are no doubt contaminated. There is video evidence showing the gloves being contaminated and used to collect more evidence. The investigators have been proven time and time again to be incompetent.

Could you be more specific? Is this the bracelet thing? Do you have footage of them touching stuff that might plausibly be daubed in Raffaele's DNA and then picking up the clasp?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Kermit,

Can't we give Chris points for effort or something? He is clearly having email conversations with people involved in the case, and clearly feels bound by confidentiality in regard to those conversations. It seems to me one thing to say "unless I know the source I'm not going to take your information seriously" and another to keep beating him up over not revealing his sources. Personally I trust his honesty, but don't altogether trust his sources, or possibly his sources sources. His information is interesting, and a starting point for further investigation.

The information that Chris states is 100% correct. I can confirm everything that he has said about the files but that would mean absolutely nothing to you.

Chris gets beat up on here because Kermit is intimidated by him.

Shuttlt, when are you going to realize what the PMF crowd is all about?

Next, Kermit will make a powerpoint presentation mocking Chris.

 

[Kermit]

Are you telling me that you are here arguing about the clasp and you have never watched the the bra clasp collection video?

.
Are you telling me that you argue on your site about Mignini "taking the Monster of Florence" case, when you have never actually read sufficiently on it to understand that Mignini is a Perugian Prosecutor, not a Florentine Prosecutor, and he never took on the MoF case?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Could you be more specific? Is this the bracelet thing? Do you have footage of them touching stuff that might plausibly be daubed in Raffaele's DNA and then picking up the clasp?

I am working on some videos. I will have them on the site soon. I will post them here also. I have the photos of the gloves on the site right now.

 

[shuttlt]

There is audio on the tape but most segments releases to the news are video only.


I was incorrect about the time of the bra clasp discovery:

Nov 3, 2007
01:22:30 .. 01:22:41 - Collecting bra SexLiesMurder#Part 4 9:02, DateLine Trial#Part 4 02:42
02:24:41 .. 02:24:47 - Bra clasp on floor SexLiesMurder#Part 4 9:22, DateLine Trial#Part 3 0:18, DateLine Trial#Part 4 2:45

Dec 18, 2007
No date or time - Collecting Bra clasp from under lamp cord SexLiesMurder#Part 4 19:47-SexLiesMurder#Part 5

A pity, it would be interesting to know what the instructions were to the forensic team were at that crucial moment. If anybody (Charlie???? ) has access to the audio, it would be very helpful.

 

[Fulcanelli]

LE in the U.S. would probably have trouble locking down a crime scene for a year, but they certainly have no difficulty keeping things for more than 2 or three days. They have to defend their control over any length of time, and the longer they want the more persuasive that defense needs to be, but I don't know of any particular hard and fast time limit they are confronted with. Weeks are certainly common. Months are not unheard of. Others' interests in the space will pertain, and will gain in merit and urgency as time passes.

It wouldn't take long for a landlord in the U.S. to start bitching about lost income. How did the landlord of that apartment recoup a year's worth of lost rent?

The landlord was awarded compensation by the court...they were also represented as victims in the trial.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

.
Are you telling me that you argue on your site about Mignini "taking the Monster of Florence" case, when you have never actually read sufficiently on it to understand that Mignini is a Perugian Prosecutor, not a Florentine Prosecutor, and he never took on the MoF case?

You give me a headache. You always deflect everything with useless garbage. Why don't you go make another powerpoint presentation about Amanda's vibrator.

I am so happy that you are a guilter. If you were on my side I'm not sure I could take it.

Look! I made another powerpoint!! Wow! This time it shows spiderman!

 

[Kermit]

Chris gets beat up on here because Kermit is intimidated by him....

Next, Kermit will make a powerpoint presentation mocking Chris.

.
Are you angry because I depicted Chris Mellas as "Barf" the character from the movie "Spaceballs"?

 

[Fulcanelli]

The bra was cut off of the victim's body during a violent attack. Any piece of clothing cut off of the victim is vital evidence.

You wrote: "How were they to know the clasp would turn out to be one of the most important pieces of evidence in the case?"

They were investigating a violent murder. Everything should have been collected and properly stored. Especially a piece of clothing that was cut off of the victim.

The clasp has DNA on it that is nowhere to be found anywhere else on the bra.

Keep telling me that storing evidence in the cottage was the proper way to do things. The more you say it, the more ridiculous it sounds.

Imagine this conversation at the crime scene;

Hey guys, I have the bra here and I also have the clasp. What should I do?

Well let me see, store the bra in an evidence collection bag and we will bring that with us.

Throw that clasp back on the floor. We will come back and get it in 6 weeks.

Really? Are you sure?

Oh yeah, that's how we do it here in Italy.

They didn't realise that at the time. And the crime scene isn't the place to perform a close examination of portable objects that need quickly bagging and sending off to the lab. They picked up the bra, bloody, ripped and torn and bagged that right away to be sent off for testing. It wasn't until it was closely examined at the lab (the proper place to do so) it was realised that the clasp was missing. Yes, on the first day a clasp had been seen and recorded on the floor, but at that time it wasn't known to have come off 'the' bra.

They didn't decide to come back in 6 weeks, they didn't set the date...they had to wait for the defence to okay the inspection and arrange attendance if they wanted it.

 

[Fulcanelli]

The reference samples or the fsa files? Do you know whether the investigators' reference samples were taken?

Oh no, not the .fsa files again.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

.
Are you angry because I depicted Chris Mellas as "Barf" the character from the movie "Spaceballs"?

Not at all. You just proved my point once again. We are talking about a horrific murder, PMF claims to be a credible source for information. Your childish powerpoint presentations are what they offer as credible information. PMF is a complete joke. It would be funny if you weren't attempting to destroy innocent lives.

 

[shuttlt]

The information that Chris states is 100% correct. I can confirm everything that he has said about the files but that would mean absolutely nothing to you.

I don't understand what you mean? You have external verification of what Chris Mellas says, but it would mean nothing, or you can confirm what Chris Mellas says, but it would mean nothing? Clearly it wouldn't be treated like the word or God, but I'd rather know what Chris Mellas says than not.

Chris gets beat up on here because Kermit is intimidated by him.

One does have to be a little careful about what Amanda's family says, surely?

Shuttlt, when are you going to realize what the PMF crowd is all about?

I don't think it matters. I'm not interested in who the killer is. All I care about is the structure of the arguments and unpicking the minutiae. I found a picture of Skeptical Bystander welcoming a new recruit to PMF: