Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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The problem is that we don't know exactly what happened, or where the towels were; it's all just conjecture. So we can't rule out him treading on the towels. He very well could have. After all, he trod on the pillow, didn't he? If there's a possibility he trod on the towel and then on the clasp, there's a possibility of contamination.


Would she have? Bathroom towels are washed quite frequently, remember, usually weekly. She'd been seeing Raffaele for a week, and he'd visited the cottage at least 4 or 5 times (per Laura, though he probably visited at times she wasn't there, too). If anything in the bathroom would contain Raffaele's DNA (as well as the DNA from anybody else who'd used the bathroom in that time) we'd expect it to be the hand towels.

As to one area of the towel containing more of Raffaele's DNA, well, why not? It may just have been the area of the towel he used. It would be unlikely that DNA from everyone who'd used the bathroom that week would have been distributed equally across the towel and in exact proportion to the number of times they'd used the bathroom.

Incidentally, I asked before but do you know the level of DNA found from other people on the bra clasp? I'd assumed the amount of RS's DNA was a lot greater, and that was why they'd identified him, but it turns out they identified him because of his Y chromosome. That's why I'm now wondering about the DNA from the other people.

Hmm, I'm going to have to check that. I'm curious as to why, if they had an exact amount of Raffaele's DNA, they were arguing in court about ratios. Wouldn't that be a bit pointless if they knew exactly how much DNA had been found from him? I know there was some confusion about the *total* amount of DNA, and the amount of DNA from Raffaele. But as I said, I'll have to check that.


I've probably addressed this already, but this isn't necessarily the case. Raffaele's DNA ''stood out' because they identified his Y chromosome. As I said, his DNA may just have been on that area of the towel.

And after all, if we're going to ask those sorts of questions, shouldn't we also be asking similar questions about why Amanda and Raffaele's DNA wasn't found anywhere else on Meredith's body or in the room, even though they're supposed to have participated in this bloody murder? That's also totally illogical. If the answer to those questions is 'it just happened that way', then that same answer should apply here.


Yes, I did. It would have taken a degree of friction to transfer Raffaele and the other people's DNA to the bra clasp, as we know. Stepping on a sharp, raised metal bra clasp would have done it; stepping on a smooth flat tile probably wouldn't. They weren't even able to get a positive response to blood on some of the footprints, never mind DNA.


But not because it would have been impossible, which is the point.

But how can we possibly know any of this? Perhaps Rudy moved the pillow as he stepped on it, and we know the bra clasp was very close to the pillow. So we know Rudy was stepping with bloody shoes in the area where the bra clasp was found, and we don't know exactly when the clasp ended up under the pillow. Hence, the possibility he trod on it.


I think the towels would have stayed wet longer than any of the blood stains on the floor. Just think about how damp a towel stays after you've been swimming, for example. It soaks up moisture. And wouldn't the mildew have occurred as a result of them being damp? (not sure about that, I'm just speculating).

Rudy's DNA would only have been on the towels if he'd rubbed his hands on them, not (necessarily) just from handling them.There's no indication he used them to dry his hands, which would certainly have left DNA on them. And of course, his DNA may indeed have been on areas of the towels, for all we know. Difficult to say, since they weren't tested.

Alright, so let me get this this straight...after reading you people for weeks now arguing that one can transfer ones DNA by something almost merely by looking at it, your're now arguing that it's difficult, now that it's become convenient to do so?

So let's work this out, Rudy grabs towel's, presses them to Meredith's neck but leaves none of his DNA on the towels because leaving DNA is now suddenly conveniently difficult. Raffaele however, 'easily' leaves his DNA on the towels for which we have no evidence he ever used and this DNA was then easily transferred Rudy's foot, from which it was then easily transferred to the clasp, but not leaving any blood on it in the process mind or any of Raffaele's DNA in a single other of Rudy's prints...have I got that about right? What would Occam say?

How about this one...I've got a theory, you'll love this. How about...Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy attacked Meredith. Raffaele grabbed Meredith's bra clasp and cut it off to remove the bra. I like it. It fits all the evidence, contradicts none of the evidence and is simple, requiring not a single piece of intellectual gymnastics and contortionism. Indeed, it meets all the criteria of Occam's Razor. I can't find any fault with it. What do you reckon?
 
shuttit writes:

I wondered what your thoughts were on this and whether you had any pictures from the kitchen showing other sharp knives not so far accounted for?

To the best of my knowledge, the knife they tested was the only good cutting knife in Raffaele's kitchen.


Fulcanelli writes:

I see no small amount of hypocrisy here Wilkes, for you were only too happy to claim Rudy hopped to the bathroom.

No, that's not what I think happened, nor have I ever made that claim.

Did you claim Rudy levitated to the bathroom in order to make his footprint on the mat then?
 
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In case the whole issue of the DNA wasn't confusing enough, there are big differences between how readily different people shed DNA. Perhaps this needs to be taken into acount?
 
Do you have a cite for the <200RFU? I know there was a discussion earlier in this thread in which Fulcanelli posited Raffaele's DNA was in a concentration of 1400RFU.


ETA1: Btw, I was under the impression that anything under 200RFU required LCN testing. We know that LCN testing was not used here, so I find it hard to believe there was <200RFU of Raffaele's DNA.
ETA2: The quote function does include the post number - that's what the little red arrow is next to the poster's name in the quote box. It is also possible to multi-quote.

Okay, I think some are getting confused here. I didn't say 1400 RFU. I said 1400 pg (picograms) which is 1.4 ng (nanograms). RFU is completely different and relates to the strength of the peaks in the chart.

Below 200 pg (picograms) is generally considered to be LCN (Low Copy Number). In this case, it was 1400 pg (picograms). And Raffaele's own expert admitted on the stand that he could get profiles from as low as 50 pg (picograms) without amplification.
 
BobTheDonkey,

The open letter gives approximately 200 RFU as the intensity, and I would suppose that PMF has a copy of the electropherogram, though I have not looked for it there. I have seen the electropherogram a while ago, and a few peaks are a little higher than 200 RFU, but not much more. On the other hand, Meredith's peaks are 1200-1500 RFU, IIRC. Thanks for the tip about the red arrow; I had never noticed it until just now.

halides1

You're talking about the knife here right, not the clasp?
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Your post here is another lame attempt to discredit me. Watch the first 30 seconds of this video and you will see that my statements about Douglas Preston are 100% accurate.

http://www.cbs.com/thunder/player/th...AyX6jqfuB_ZpQ3

So, you're saying Douglas Preston is lying then? Since he has said two completely different versions in two different interviews, they can't both be true right? So he must be lying in at least one of them right? So which one is the lie...or are they both lies?

If I had to choose one which is the likely lie, I would fall back on the rule of thumb that the version with the most hyperbole from an unashamed self publicist such as Preston, is the version most likely to be false. And after all, fiction is what Preston 'does'.
 
bleach

My understanding is that the knife actually belonged to Raffaele's Landlord - i.e. was a furnished apartment with cutlery. Rather than have to pick up a new knife and/or risk the knife being found missing during the investigation, it was cleaned (scrubbed and bleached) and returned to the drawer.

I have not seen evidence that it was bleached. Do you know of any?
 
I thought that this time was mainly going through different theories from what evidence they did, or did not have...?

No, they continued to investigate and gather more evidence for 6 or so months before closing it in the summer. Then, after the pre-trial, due to judge Micheli's suggestions, they re-opened the investigation for over a month.
 
Is there a picture...

Yes:

image.php


(Taken after the kitchen knife had been removed from the drawer)
 
I don't know about the bleach thing, there certainly are quotes from the police in late 2007 to back it up:

Mr Profazio added: 'The knife had been cleaned with bleach, which removes blood, but not DNA.' It is understood the kitchen knife may have come from the house that Knox and Miss Kercher shared in Perugia.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569485/Meredith-suspects-DNA-found-on-knife.html

Quite what evidence this was based on isn't clear. It could be the "smell of bleach" claims. Clearly this also looks like a rather strong statement about what bleach does and does not remove in the light of past discussions.

As far as I'm concerned it's in the realm of maybe until the Motivations says otherwise.
 
Your statement about Doug Preston is tosh. The sensational "spooky" footage might have given you a clue as to the fact that that is not serious journalism, even if it fits with what you would like to believe.

I am not saying that your site is riddled with inaccuracies because you are dishonest in any way, Bruce Fisher. But whatever the reason, your site is riddled with inaccuracies. And they are not trivial, because, just like the prosecution, you are using accrestion of detail to build a narrative that is of much more significance than the sum of the details themselves. Therefore it matters that the detail is accurate.

Preston was not arrested and he did not go to the prosecutors office in the middle of the night. If you listen to your own link you will notice he says nothing whatsoever about the "middle of the night". That is because he never claimed this: I do not know if he willingly colluded with giving a false impression or whether his words have been misused without his consent. If the latter he should sue: but he won't IMO because the publicity is handy.





http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19333195/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/page/6/

and see Kermit's quote also.

You wrote: "your site is riddled with inaccuracies"

Do you care to make one of your "lists" showing these inaccuracies?
 
.
Well, where do we start?

First of all, if you publish on your website details (whether true or false) which have "absolutely no bearing on the case at all", well, why publish them to begin with?

Secondly, my advice is that self-righteousness and vehemence is always a bad combination, especially when you're wrong. Your "proof" that I was wrong is this CBS tape:
http://www.cbs.com/thunder/player/tv/video.php?pid=9_rfoC6qJocWS7XQxEAyX6jqfuB_ZpQ3

I should warn you that anything tainted with the CBS name in this case, especially when Paul Ciolino (Paul the Private Eye) or Peter Van Sant appear, is not a solid or unbiased reference.

Ciolino is the one who continued insisting on national television that Amanda had "never set eyes" on Rudy, one week after she had testified in court that they had smoked marijuana together at the party downstairs.

Anyway, I've learned on JREF to always read the links provided by the contrary opinion. Often, those links do not support, but rather go against the opinion of those who provide them (good example: Hilades and his DNA-on-household-dust as a good transfer mechanism for Raffaele's complete DNA profile to the bra clasp).

So, I clicked on Bruce's CBS link, and what do I see? If you do it, don't think you made a mistake if you think it's the start of the extended version of the Thriller video. Instead of Michael Jackson strutting on stage and doing a moon dance to drive the ecstacy of his fans, we see the following:

[qimg]http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4855/brucescrewsupagain.png[/qimg]

Okay, so Paul the Private Eye is Bruce's documentary reference for stating on his infamous site Injusticeinperugica.org: "Douglas Preston was interrogated by Mignini. He was brought in during the middle of the night. He was accused of being an accessory to murder involving the Monster of Florence case."

Rather than Paul the Private Eye, Bruce should have quoted Preston himself concerning the moment and conditions of this questioning:

"The next day, I was ushered into a pleasant office in the Procura della Repubblica, just outside the ancient city walls of Perugia .... I had dressed smartly—Italians judge harshly in such matters—and I had a folded copy of the International Herald Tribune under my arm as a prop.

Mignini was a small man of indeterminate middle age, well groomed, with a fleshy face and thinning hair. His voice was calm and pleasant and he addressed me with elaborate courtesy ...

His questions were gentle, posed almost apologetically. The stenographer typed the questions, and my answers, into her computer .... The questions went on like this for an hour, and I was starting to feel reassured. I even had a glimmer of hope that I might get out in time to join my wife and children for lunch at a nearby restaurant, which came highly recommended in the guidebooks
."

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/07/the-monster-of-florence/4981/6/?

Once again, we are debating about what time of the day Douglas Preston was at Mignini's office. This has no bearing on this case. You use garbage like this to distract people from the actual truth.
 
michellesings writes:

I am fairly sure that in most investigations, all of the knives would have been taken, and in both apartments.


They didn't have any interest in the knives at the cottage. Nor were they interested in identifying the unknown individuals who left their DNA on cigarette butts in the kitchen and on bloody bloody tissues found just outside the cottage. Probably these traces would have matched the Italian housemates, their boyfriends, or the downstairs tenants, but the authorities didn't obtain reference samples from any of those people. They weren't really conducting an investigation. They jumped to a conclusion before they knew the facts, the media ran with it, and they realized that if it didn't pan out, they'd look like fools. That was what drove every decision they made.

I find it interesting that so many otherwise intelligent people have fallen for the claptrap put out by these clowns.

"Amanda was carrying a bag very roomy as Romanelli stated (p. 51, Hearing 7.2.2009), in this stock could find a place the knife in question. Amanda in its various movements, such as going to the pub Le Chic located in Via Alessi, she could be alone in having to walk even late at night on roads that might not seem so safe to walk at night by a girl. E 'therefore possible and even likely given the relationship that Raffaele Sollecito had with knives (was inseparable from his boxcutter as we have seen) that Amanda has been advised and convinced by her boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito precisely, to hold or carry this knife, if only to make her feel more secure and, if necessary, might well serve as a deterrent against possible attackers that night and he could meet alone."

Sure, that's the ticket. She was walking around town with a big kitchen knife in case she ran into an olive-throwing Albanian.
 
The morning of February 22, I headed out of the apartment into the streets of Florence to fetch espressos and pastries to carry back for breakfast. As I was crossing the street to a little café, my cell phone rang. A man speaking Italian informed me he was a police detective and wanted to see me—immediately.
Douglas Preston in Chapter 45 of "The Monster of Florence"

Maybe Ciolino was confusing that bit with the search of Mario Spezi's home back in 2004?
Nope, because
At 6:15 on the morning of November 18, 2004, Mario Spezi woke to the sound of his door buzzer and the raucous voice of a police detective demanding entrance.
from the same book.

It's relevant to this discussion because Ciolino seems to be unable to get published facts (and published by Preston himself!) straight. So much for professionalism.
 
Fulcanelli writes:

Did you claim Rudy levitated to the bathroom in order to make his footprint on the mat then?

I think he removed his shoe in the bathroom when he cleaned up after the murder. That is why the print was made with diluted blood or bloody water. Nobody hopped or levitated.
 
You wrote: "your site is riddled with inaccuracies"

Do you care to make one of your "lists" showing these inaccuracies?
Could you deal with the list I gave of, what I believe to be, some of the more important inaccuracies in your Illegal Interrogations article? I would be particularly interested in your take on why the interrogations were illegal as I haven't seen you make a defence of this.

In your article you say:
Amanda was told that she was being questioned as a witness but she was clearly being interrogated as a suspect. Italian law is very clear, no suspect is to be interrogated with out the presence of an attorney. The interrogation of Amanda Knox was illegal.
I've asked this quite a few times on your blog. Are you sure your claim that the interrogation was illegal isn't based on equivocating on the different meanings of the word 'suspect', i.e. meaning 1: someone who individual police officers on the enquiry, or even all the officers on the enquiry, suspect. Meaning 2: someone who has been formally declared to be a 'suspect' (as I understand it this involves, amongst other things, a time limit within which the status has to be confirmed before a judge, minimal standards of evidence, and some sort of public declaration of the persons change of status within the case.)

I can give other facts from your site that I think are worth looking at, but a complete list will be timeconsuming to produce and any serious discussion must necessarily come down to arguing over specific facts individually.
 
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Mr. Cellophane



BRUCE FISHER, on his website: "Douglas Preston was interrogated by Mignini. He was brought in during the middle of the night."

HOWEVER, DOUGLAS PRESTON in an interview: "The questions went on like this for an hour, and I was starting to feel reassured. I even had a glimmer of hope that I might get out in time to join my wife and children for lunch at a nearby restaurant, which came highly recommended in the guidebooks."

BRUCE got irate: "Kermit, why do you put so much importance on small details that have no bearing whatsoever on the case? ....

Watch the first 30 seconds of this video and you will see that my statements about Douglas Preston are 100% accurate ....

I just proved Kermit to be completely incorrect in my previous post. I am sure you will remain silent and not acknowledge that fact on this board ....
"

BUT WHEN FACED WITH SOMETHING OBVIOUS (that he is obviously wrong), BRUCE DOWNPLAYS THE NEED FOR ACCURACY: "Once again, we are debating about what time of the day Douglas Preston was at Mignini's office. This has no bearing on this case. You use garbage like this to distract people from the actual truth."

==========================

1) If it has no bearing on the case, then why talk about it? If it's "garbage", who put the garbage on your website? What was the importance to you of stating that Preston "was brought in during the middle of the night"?

2) Who was correct and who was incorrect? Kermit or Bruce?

3) If you are incorrect, are you going to correct your website? After all, you did say in a haughty tone: "You see Kermit, I want the site to be factual."
 
How has anyone been convinced that there was any relationship whatsoever between Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede?

I ask because it seems to me that this is crucial to the case against her (and Sollicito).

In over a year of following it (and this thread from the beginning), I've haven't heard of any credible evidence or testimony to persuade me that she knew him as anything but 'some black guy' who hung around Perugia (she wasn't able to name him in any of her statements).

So?
 
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