No-Touch Knockouts - what's the deal?

[Monketi Ghost]

I recall seeing a video of a Yellow Bamboo "master" grandiosly signing a waiver, and then a TKD practitioner tore across the floor and hit him really hard in the face... just like I knew would happen. And I laughed and laughed.

 

[AaronAlexander]

Thanks for that video AaronAlexander, very cool. Can you say a bit about your technique? I mean, how you managed to get a psych prof to topple over in front of a class? That's damned impressive. I would have expected that context to strongly inhibit dramatic physical reactions like that.

I'm not really comfortable spilling all the beans online. I'm releasing a book before too long - it's already finished save one section - on how to do some of the effects like Psychic Surgery (I linked in that post about pendulums), the invisible rope and no contact push(as in the vid with the prof), and causing pulse sensations for lie detecting (the Telltale Heart... I'll stop promoting now) to name a few but for now I'm going to keep no touch knockouts under my hat. It's not a money grubbing thing (I'm considering making the book go for my charity to make taxes simpler anyway) and I'm pretty open with people I know, but I think you can probably see that these knockout techniques work extraordinarily well compared to Yellow Bamboo standard, and I don't want them to just float around online. You can PM me if you are interested in the book or in convincing me that you won't sell my bag of tricks to Benny Hinn. I'm planning to let some advanced copies go possibly at cost before I sell my soul to a publisher.

As to your question about the prof, suffice to say that strongly trying to control yourself can go either way, and usually makes your responses even more predictable. I also think that generally the people who we have watched getting smacked down during various trials of chi energy on youtube are held back because they are at root believers in some system that doesn't correspond well to the dynamics of the situation, and they probably don't spend their time thinking of elaborate cons to help those situation dynamics along.

I'm frequently on the UofA campus in Edmonton, so possibly I'd make a good guinea pig. I've been hit in the face and had people wave their hands in their face with no great effect, so I'd certainly expect that there's got to be some rather odd conditions given an opportunity to "control a few things."

Really? That's awesome. Small world, or maybe divine intervention again. I'm doing my next demo there May 3rd, I'm not sure if it's public but if you're interested I'll see. I was definitely short of willing guinnea pigs last time, as you can see from my 3 poor volunteers. It's a ton of fun, though, unlike those dry 'legit' chi demos. I'll even do requests.

This one is for faculty and lab, which may go either way. Last time the faculty and admin staff were really dry and skeptical until the very end (where all the video is from), but the time before the science students were great and I got a better understanding of why people start cults. This is a bit of a mixed bag so we'll see. My supervisor is already like "do psychic surgery! Do it to me!" after reading my crazy **** all year.

 

[Think_Tank]

Anyone who as seen Benny Hinn knock down hundreds or even thousands of people...

I can't hear that without thinking of this

 

[Paul2]

I'm not really comfortable spilling all the beans online. I'm releasing a book before too long - it's already finished save one section - on how to do some of the effects like Psychic Surgery (I linked in that post about pendulums), the invisible rope and no contact push(as in the vid with the prof), and causing pulse sensations for lie detecting (the Telltale Heart... I'll stop promoting now) to name a few but for now I'm going to keep no touch knockouts under my hat. It's not a money grubbing thing (I'm considering making the book go for my charity to make taxes simpler anyway) and I'm pretty open with people I know, but I think you can probably see that these knockout techniques work extraordinarily well compared to Yellow Bamboo standard, and I don't want them to just float around online. You can PM me if you are interested in the book or in convincing me that you won't sell my bag of tricks to Benny Hinn. I'm planning to let some advanced copies go possibly at cost before I sell my soul to a publisher.

Wait, I don't get it. You're asking us how this works, but you have some special technique that makes it work?

OK, my guess is that your special technique is the thing that makes it work.

 

[the_bunkologist]

I would suggest vital signs, before and after, be taken ... at a minimum. Perhaps even hours before. Testing for various chemical releases, possibly. Performing PET scans in motion, if it's possible. Monitoring brain wave activity, etc and so forth. IOW .... anything that could possibly show trends and/or changes in the body before, during, and after ... and possibly delineating what sections of the brain are responsible for the responses, yada yada. In other words, dissect it medically as much as necessary to gather more than enough data to reflect the underlying mechanisms responsible.

Sorry, but this sounds like a pretty naive reading of what psychologists actually do. You can't just go in without a hypothesis and start testing stuff. I'm sure we're all agreed that there is some material cause for the phenomenon, but without any idea of what to look for taking their pulse before and after would just be a waste of time. You need to be very still for a PET scan to work, and monitoring 'brain wave activity' (I presume you mean EEG?) is a very crude measure of activity. I don't even know what you mean by testing for 'chemical releases'.

And although this isn't a consensus opinion, I tend to think we don't know about how activity is localized in the brain to deal with complex phenomena like this. We do not yet have a working model of how our brains interpret the world, despite science journalism's affection for announcing that scientists have found the 'brain region for x'. The best models (imho) of how the brain processes information are distributed, with correlations of activity across the brain being the relevant unit of processing, not a spike in activity in one isolated region.

Point is, just because we can feel assured that there is some material cause doesn't make it possible to just go poking around and find it. That's just not the state that the brain/mind sciences are in right now.

 

[the_bunkologist]

I'm not really comfortable spilling all the beans online.

Fair enough. It just makes it much harder for us to speculate about what is really going on without knowing what you're doing. What you say beforehand, how and where you direct attention, etc. are all pretty crucial data. I imagine one of the reasons there is no academic literature on this stuff is because that info is all closely guarded, or in some cases perhaps only known intuitively. I look forward to your book though - getting published is one of those magic powers that really impresses me.

 

[Paul2]

Another way to look at this is to examine what it would take to prevent the effect. What happens if you tell everyone on which you attempt the technique to try to resist falling over? Can anyone resist the effect/technique? Or only some people?

 

[the_bunkologist]

sorry, double post

 

[Trent Wray]

Sorry, but this sounds like a pretty naive reading of what psychologists actually do. You can't just go in without a hypothesis and start testing stuff. I'm sure we're all agreed that there is some material cause for the phenomenon, but without any idea of what to look for taking their pulse before and after would just be a waste of time. You need to be very still for a PET scan to work, and monitoring 'brain wave activity' (I presume you mean EEG?) is a very crude measure of activity. I don't even know what you mean by testing for 'chemical releases'.

And although this isn't a consensus opinion, I tend to think we don't know about how activity is localized in the brain to deal with complex phenomena like this. We do not yet have a working model of how our brains interpret the world, despite science journalism's affection for announcing that scientists have found the 'brain region for x'. The best models (imho) of how the brain processes information are distributed, with correlations of activity across the brain being the relevant unit of processing, not a spike in activity in one isolated region.

Point is, just because we can feel assured that there is some material cause doesn't make it possible to just go poking around and find it. That's just not the state that the brain/mind sciences are in right now.

I respect your opinion, but I think that attempting to get some basic medical information and beyond would prove valuable.

For example, for all I know a person induces a form of orthostatic hypotension during the event or some kind of syncopal episode or vagal response based on the anticipation of being knocked out (i.e. like when someone passes out from seeing blood, etc). Getting a set of basic vital signs (heart rate, blood pressure, possibly blood glucose, etc) before and after (and perhaps even during somehow) might prove valuable. I mentioned a moving PET scan if it were possible. Is there a way to take images of neural activity while a person is in motion? I don't know .... that's not my area. EEG seems pretty limiting and why I didn't mention it directly but hinted at something like it (whatever that might be), although I don't know if there are other ways of monitoring brain wave activity that are more thorough --- again, it's not my area. Mentioning "chemical releases" was a clumsy way of saying that perhaps attempting to measure the release of neurotransmitters or other enzymes would be useful, but that's not my area either .... I don't know if it's even possible to measure those levels. But if it is, why wouldn't it be worth looking into trying to attain as much possibly relevant medical data as one could? It seems as though you are claiming it's impossible to nail it down precisely.

 

[the_bunkologist]

I respect your opinion, but I think that attempting to get some basic medical information and beyond would prove valuable.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I think medical tests would be useless. What I was trying to get across is that just collecting medical data isn't enough. You need a hypothesis to tell you what to look for in the data - otherwise, it is just a pile of data.

But if it is, why wouldn't it be worth looking into trying to attain as much possibly relevant medical data as one could? It seems as though you are claiming it's impossible to nail it down precisely.

I wonder where you got the claim that something here is 'impossible to nail .. down precisely' from my post, but never mind.

Psychologists don't, in practice, just start taking measurements and hope something interesting turns up. That's just not how the scientific method works. They form a hypothesis, based on their understanding of relevantly similar phenomena, and then test for that hypothesis in a way that is informed by detailed knowledge of those other phenomena.

What I'm trying to show is that suggesting that we look for 'chemical releases' and 'brain waves' is about as helpful as suggesting to a computer tech person that to fix a broken computer, they should look at 'electrical releases' and 'chip states'. Or telling a car mechanic that you think the problem is with the way the car is converting chemical into kinetic energy. In one way it's obviously right - it will all come down to 'electrical releases' somehow. But it doesn't get you very far to say that, does it?

 

[Trent Wray]

I didn't mean to give the impression that I think medical tests would be useless. What I was trying to get across is that just collecting medical data isn't enough. You need a hypothesis to tell you what to look for in the data - otherwise, it is just a pile of data.

I wonder where you got the claim that something here is 'impossible to nail .. down precisely' from my post, but never mind.

No worries. I assumed that's what you were getting at by this:

Point is, just because we can feel assured that there is some material cause doesn't make it possible to just go poking around and find it. That's just not the state that the brain/mind sciences are in right now.

Psychologists don't, in practice, just start taking measurements and hope something interesting turns up. That's just not how the scientific method works. They form a hypothesis, based on their understanding of relevantly similar phenomena, and then test for that hypothesis in a way that is informed by detailed knowledge of those other phenomena.

What I'm trying to show is that suggesting that we look for 'chemical releases' and 'brain waves' is about as helpful as suggesting to a computer tech person that to fix a broken computer, they should look at 'electrical releases' and 'chip states'. Or telling a car mechanic that you think the problem is with the way the car is converting chemical into kinetic energy. In one way it's obviously right - it will all come down to 'electrical releases' somehow. But it doesn't get you very far to say that, does it?

And this is assuming it's all psychological and nothing else. I think it's obvious it's primarily triggered psychologically, but in my armchair opinion it's a combination of not just ideomotor responses but a secondarily stress induced vasovagal syncope as well. So in that sense I suppose one is already looking at gathering data to support a hypothesis (if they're looking for signs of a vagal reaction). But I still think gathering data that might seem relevant and letting the data speak for itself would encompass a more thorough explanation and not one biased towards a preconceived hypothesis. Again, mentioning "brain waves" and "chemical releases" was an attempt to throw an idea out there that someone with more knowledge of useful methods of what is actually possible to sample might could comment on. Is it not possible to measure the level of certain neurotransmitters or other relevant enzymes, etc? I don't see how sampling basic electrolytes and other levels would be very useful, but perhaps there are certain levels of chemicals to look for that might be revealing? I'm asking

And is there no way to produce useful brain scan imaging of a person in motion? Again, I'm asking

Just my op.

ETA: And I still want to see my dream of Chi Whiz cans on store shelves realized.

 

[AaronAlexander]

Wait, I don't get it. You're asking us how this works, but you have some special technique that makes it work?

OK, my guess is that your special technique is the thing that makes it work.

Fair enough. It just makes it much harder for us to speculate about what is really going on without knowing what you're doing. What you say beforehand, how and where you direct attention, etc. are all pretty crucial data. I imagine one of the reasons there is no academic literature on this stuff is because that info is all closely guarded, or in some cases perhaps only known intuitively. I look forward to your book though - getting published is one of those magic powers that really impresses me.

Anyone can digest food, but few people understand what they are doing it as they do it. Part of the reason I asked for other examples of similar things was so that I can compare the explanations of how those work with my ideas of the same and to my techniques. For example while a lot of people have explained it all with people 'playing along', I know from my own experiences that that doesn't cover the experience of it for most people.

As the guy on the other thread on this topic found, you can just push some people over and get a good effect, especially if you set them up with expectation. The techniques that I use aren't things that make the phenomena happen, they're something that makes it happen with people for whom it doesn't work normally, and to a greater degree of success when it does work. I'm not just presenting a phenomenon that I have the key to and then asking everyone "What's the key? (Hee-hee! I'm so clever!)"

 

[AaronAlexander]

ETA: And I still want to see my dream of Chi Whiz cans on store shelves realized.

Maybe try partenering with Peter Popoff. He seems to have a lot of products like that, plus he does the knock people over with the holy ghost thing already. But you will have to rename it Jee-Whiz-Us and sell it for a lot more. Or Jee(sus)Whiz?

 

[Trent Wray]

Maybe try partenering with Peter Popoff. He seems to have a lot of products like that, plus he does the knock people over with the holy ghost thing already. But you will have to rename it Jee-Whiz-Us and sell it for a lot more. Or Jee(sus)Whiz?

I like it. I could also offer discounts when purchases of Bubbles the Monkey's Jesus Juice ^TM is combined with buying a can of Jeez Whiz.

While I'm at it, perhaps I should appeal to the gansta community with G-Whiz, but I digress ...


ETA: And Peter Popoff is one of my favorite fictional characters

 

[steve s]

In martial arts, one of the goofiest proponents of the "no-touch knockout" woo is George Dillman. Here's a short video on what happened when Dillman's star student tried this nonsense on a skeptic and Dillman's lame attempt to rationalize the results away
.

I just love how skepticism is the most powerful force in the universe. What good is the power of chi if it can be defeated by the words "I'm a skeptic"? And all I have to do is move my tongue or my toe to nullify it. How does this guy stay in business?

"It's a radio wave." That's hilarious. If it's a radio wave it can be detected by radio equipment. There are radio waves passing through me right now and they aren't knocking me over.

Steve S

 

[Hannibal]

It never ceases to amaze me how often the DM/NTKO dead-horse needs to be beaten

THEY DO NOT WORK AGAINST ANYONE WHO DOES NOT WANT THEM TO

The discussion of the why do the work against the other people is pretty much Fox Mulder - "I want to believe"

It would be interesting to see interviews of people who have had their skills tested (and failed) - do they change their views or do they come up with the same crap that Dillman and other leeches like him put forth

 

[MattusMaximus]

There's another video around of one of Dillman's disciples getting checked out by a local TV station. They take him to a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school and have him demonstrate his KO technique on the students, with predictable results. Same things you always see with these guys...Hilarious rationalizations about why it didn't work ("he must have had one toe pointing up and the other one pointing down") and a whole cadre of young students absolutely in awe of him who swallow every thing that he says without question.

You mean THIS video?



I watched this air on TV (I live north of Chicago) and I just laughed my ass off the whole time. The best part was when the reporter got pissed because the guy tapped her in the jaw, "Hey, you just hit me!"

Or was it the looks on the faces of the guys at that other dojo? You know, the ones who looked like they'd love to actually get that clown into the ring for a couple of rounds?

 

[MattusMaximus]

I recall seeing a video of a Yellow Bamboo "master" grandiosly signing a waiver, and then a TKD practitioner tore across the floor and hit him really hard in the face... just like I knew would happen. And I laughed and laughed.

I assume you mean this one...

 

[Hannibal]

Is it just me or does "chi" always sink to the belly?

 

[Trent Wray]

Is it just me or does "chi" always sink to the belly?

Depends on what you're doing with your toes and/or tongue.