Does Raising Suicide-Awareness actually help anyone?

[Complexity]

Considering your handle, this is an awfully simple answer. Also unconvincing.

I answered the question.

I didn't see a need to elaborate.

This isn't a complex issue, though it has a few aspects. If there is something that you can't work out by yourself, ask some questions.

Where did 'convincing' enter into the thread? I was asked for an opinion. I offered mine.

I could have gone on for pages, but succinctness seemed appropriate.

 

[MikeSun5]

I perceive your criticism of people who suicide as selfish jerks as the equivalent of criticizing someone with a physical abnormality for the consequences of that abnormality. Just because disordered thinking isn't visible or you can't understand it because you've never experienced it doesn't make it any less real than a shortened leg.

Your point is well taken. You are saying that I'm criticizing someone for something they have no control over, which doesn't make any sense. But your reasoning suggests that suicidal people are abnormal people. This is one consensus that has not yet been reached.

Are suicidal people 1.) normal people with abnormal problems that are too tough to deal with, or 2.) abnormal people with normal problems that are too tough to deal with?

Imagine you feel like a worthless blob. If someone criticizes you as a selfish worthless blob it can add to your negative feelings about yourself.

Again, this argument is invalid because I do not criticize suicidal people for being suicidal. I criticize the ones who have killed themselves for not trying as hard as everyone else - especially those who "have been there."

 

[Complexity]

I just read through the thread. I hadn't looked at since post 1.

I disagree with much that I've read. MikeSun5's post contain many of the most mistaken or objectionable statements, but he is not alone.

I've been depressed most of my life. I came close to suicide a few times - I made no attempts, but I figured out how I'd do it.

I'm feeling pretty good right now and am unlikely to contemplate suicide in the next few years.

I fully expect that I will kill myself at some point unless I die quickly of a stroke or heart attack first. I have the right to do so and will exercise that right if and when I choose.

Health issues, financial issues, and a sense of completion are likely to figure into my decision. I would kill myself only after prolonged deliberation, arranging my affairs, and finding ways to say goodbye (sometimes through some quality time).

I am much more interested in the quality of my life than I am in the length of my life.

Not everyone who kills themselves is mentally ill or kills themselves out of mental illness. Some people have gained closure and wish their lives to end.

While there probably are loved ones and friends who will be hurt, possible even devastated, by a suicide, those people don't have a right to bind the would-be suicide to life.

All of that said, I think that many people, especially young people, who think of killing themselves are in deep despair. I would urge them to get some help and put off the irreversible act, at least for now.

A student of mine tried to kill himself. I did what I could to help his recovery. He is a fairly happy person today, and I am glad that he didn't die that night.

Several of you have addressed aspects of the question in the OP. I only want to add that many people don't think suicide is a possibility in the lives of their loved ones, that many people don't think threats of suicide are serious, and that signs of suicide in oneself and others aren't well known by a great many people.

I've lost nearly all interest in doing combat, argument, and persuasion (this isn't a topic in which I want to indulge in mockery - something I still enjoy). I'll check in on this thread occasionally, but I am not interested in engaging in a lot of back-and-forth, especially with MikeSun5. So it goes.

 

[Lolly]

But your reasoning suggests that suicidal people are abnormal people.

That's not what I was suggesting. All I said was that their thinking was disordered. That makes them no more "abnormal" than a person with any other physical disorder. (BTW, "abnormal" is a judgment that really isn't descriptive of anything in particular. We could debate the meaning of the word and may not agree what it even means.)

I criticize the ones who have killed themselves for not trying as hard as everyone else - especially those who "have been there."

You can't criticize based on the degree of a disorder. Person A might have high blood pressure which is well controlled by medication and that person might live a normal life without problems. Person B might have high blood pressure that is poorly controlled by medication, or that, despite medication, leads to a heart attack or stroke. Person A might have a depression that responds to medication or that passes with or without medical treatment. Person B might find no relief in medication, counselling or whatever else might be available (assuming they can overcome the depression and the stigma of being blamed for being "weak-willed" or "selfish" to try them in the first place) leading to suicide. Do you blame a stroke victim for "not trying hard enough" not to have a stroke? After all, other people haven't had strokes......

You can't blame a stroke victim for his or her blood clotting or failing to clot, you can't blame a diabetic for being unable to control their blood sugar and you can't blame someone whose brain chemistry is out of whack for the consequences flowing from it.

 

[slingblade]

Again, this argument is invalid because I do not criticize suicidal people for being suicidal. I criticize the ones who have killed themselves for not trying as hard as everyone else - especially those who "have been there."

Last time I looked, I wasn't "everyone else." Not everyone else has to try to stay alive. There are many for whom thoughts of suicide will never even cross their minds.

Where do you get this cockeyed notion that we all act, think, and are like everyone else around us, in spite of the individual lives we live?

I had a lot more to say, but I edited it. You deserve to hear it, though. Shame you won't.

 

[Richard Masters]

Your point is well taken. You are saying that I'm criticizing someone for something they have no control over, which doesn't make any sense. But your reasoning suggests that suicidal people are abnormal people. This is one consensus that has not yet been reached.

Are suicidal people 1.) normal people with abnormal problems that are too tough to deal with, or 2.) abnormal people with normal problems that are too tough to deal with?

I wouldn't agree with either definition.

I would say it's people experiencing intolerable feelings of sadness and a perceived or real lack of control over mental or physical pain.

Again, this argument is invalid because I do not criticize suicidal people for being suicidal. I criticize the ones who have killed themselves for not trying as hard as everyone else - especially those who "have been there."

A lot of people who "have been there" haven't.

 

[Skeptic]

II fully expect that I will kill myself at some point unless I die quickly of a stroke or heart attack first. I have the right to do so and will exercise that right if and when I choose.

I will bet good money that you won't. Statistically speaking -- not knowing you personally -- the odds are about 1:100 on my side.

Depression is common. 10-20% of the population suffer from it, myself included. Many, indeed most, adults (30%? 60%?), myself included, say that they would rather kill themselves than live under certain circumstances (e.g., going blind, getting Alzheimer's, losing a child, etc.).

But the number of people who actually do kill themselves is rather small, even when such tragedies occur -- and some such tragedy is almost inevitable, eventually, in most human lives. Still, The highest suicide rate in recorded history for a country is less than 0.1%.

 

[Complexity]

I will bet good money that you won't. Statistically speaking -- not knowing you personally -- the odds are about 1:100 on my side.

Depression is common. 10-20% of the population suffer from it, myself included. Many, indeed most, adults (30%? 60%?), myself included, say that they would rather kill themselves than live under certain circumstances (e.g., going blind, getting Alzheimer's, losing a child, etc.).

But the number of people who actually do kill themselves is rather small, even when such tragedies occur -- and some such tragedy is almost inevitable, eventually, in most human lives. Still, The highest suicide rate in recorded history for a country is less than 0.1%.

Perhaps.

If I do kill myself, I don't think it will be from depression. I think it is far more likely because of health, money, or reaching a good stopping point.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Then this again:

Do I, as a father, have a responsibility not to join the army, even if drafted? Do I have a responsibility not to work in mines or on trawlers or as a farmer (farmers often work alone in dangerous areas with potentially lethal machinery and unpredictable animals...not to mention their suicide rate being markedly higher than average) or acrobat or logger etc? Do I have a responsibility to never leave the house in case I'm run over by a bus?

Can I kill myself before I reproduce? How old must my children be before I can consider them adults and I regain the 'right' to suicide? What is the extent and scope of 'parental responsibility' and who is qualified to decide it? What evidence can you offer to support your position?

Also, this again:

Being alive, and the choices we make when alive, creates pain for others, it leaves messes for others to clean up. Our actions frighten, offend, disturb and unsettle others. In what way is the action of suicide so different from our other actions?

I really, really do not understand your point here. You basically are saying that because people can screw over their kids while being alive, they have the right to commit suicide even if it literally ruins their children's life?

What are you talking about? How about you try not to do BOTH. How about you try and not psychologically damage your children by doing something while you're alive AND by not killing yourself. You make it sound like the fact that parents can screw up their kids while alive that somehow negates any trauma they cause by committing suicide.

When you decide to be a parent to that child, you have a responsibility to do all that you can to do right by that child. Sometimes we will hurt them anyways no matter how hard we try, but we have to try. It is not childish to state that parents should do all that they can to not ruining their children's lives, and I don't even know how you can claim that.

But I do understand what you're saying in certain circumstances. Having to deal with a loved one if they are perpetually severely mentally or physically ill can be just as emotionally devastating and life ruining as having said person kill themselves. I would not judge a person who had a severely debilitating illness that could not be successfully treated decided to end their lives even if they had a family.

But I do not think it is something that you just have the moral right to do when you know your death is going to directly impact the people it is your responsibility to care for. Child neglect is illegal, is it not? What could be more neglectful that intentionally leaving your child, who depends on you for protection and for provision. My foster sister's father died of a cocaine overdose, leaving her to live with her horrifically abusive mother who ultimately almost killed her. By being irresponsible with his own life, her father's actions directly lead to his daughter being horrifically abused for years and then almost murdered. Yes, parents have a responsibility to protect their children to the extent that they are able while their children are still young enough that they are not able to take care of themselves.

find it shocking that you think it childish for a person to feel wrong that their father's intentional, direct actions resulted in them, a dependent child, having their lives ruined.

Is your argument just basically that people have the right to do whatever they want and bear no responsibility for the direct result their actions have on others, even in the case of minors who are their legal responsibility?

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Not everyone who commits suicide is mentally ill, but many are.

If you were hiking through the Amazon, and your buddy came down with a fever that made him delerious, and he decided to go jump off a cliff, would you say you shouldn't interfere because he has the right to his autonomy? Or would you say your friend is not thinking clearly and in his right mind would want you to save him?

That's really what it is with mental illness. Now some mental illness is so debilitating and extreme...I feel that suicide is understandable. A friends' uncle had sever schizophrenia. He suffered from it for decades with no end in sight. The only way to treat it was to medicate him so heavily he was little more than catatonic. He ultimately killed himself. Not all illnesses can be treated.

I admit this is a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? At what point is an illness so bad that you say it is understandable for a person to give up hope, and suicide actually may be the better option than their suffering? I'm not going to pretend there is a clear answer.

However, the fact is that there are plenty of people suffering from treatable illnesses who would not want to die once treated for said illness, just like with a delusional fever.

I developed anorexia at age 11. I went through cycles of recovery and relapse until about a decade later when I hit my worst point. I wasn't depressed, just incredibly obsessive compulsive. At its worst, there was just a constant voice in my head dictating everything I did, and every aspect of my life revolved around weight & calories. I stopped sleeping, I just would work out all night long having not eaten all day, going on adrenaline alone. I'd be on the edge of panic attacks if I had to sit down for extended periods because I wasn't burning calories. Though I had not been depressed in the past, I had still been quite happy despite my obsessions, I ultimately became depressed just because at that point I weighed so little, wasn't sleeping, wasn't eating. The mix of the OCD and the depression made me start feeling suicidal. I really believed that it would just be better for myself and everyone if I were dead. My parents had already spent so much time and effort on past therapies, and the fact that I had relapsed so badly compounded my guilt.

But my parents and my boyfriend at the time (now my husband) put their foot down, and "forced" me into in patient rehab and onto psychiatric drugs. Zoloft saved my life. I had tried various therapies for years and though they made me temporarily stop the anorexic behavior, the anorexic thoughts, the voices in my head, had never disappeared. With Zoloft they did. they just went away. I stopped having panic attacks. The compulsive thoughts, the depression, it all just went away. I stayed on Zoloft for a couple years, then weaned myself off of it. Though it has been more difficult since I went off the zoloft, I can manage it and keep bad thoughts at bay using other techniques like meditation and yoga which I had been taught years before in treatment but had never been able to use as a successful mindfulness technique until Zoloft. I am hoping I will never have to go back on it but I absolutely will if my thinking ever becomes dangerous again.

My suicidal thoughts had nothing to do with my right to autonomy and everything to do with the fact that my brain had a chemical imbalance that, once corrected, returned me to my normal self. Even better than normal, as my normal self, while not depressed, had been anorexic. And that normal self never ever ever would have DREAMED of suicide had I not been so sick. I love my life. Had my husband and parents at the time simply said, "her life and her body is her choice" and knowingly let me kill myself without any attempt to stop me, I feel it would have been no different then letting a fevered man walk off a cliff.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I really, really do not understand your point here. [...] But I do understand what you're saying in certain circumstances.

So you're saying you don't understand how I could accept anyone's right to decide when suicide is right for them, but you can understand how you could accept someone's right to decide when suicide is alright for them so long as you agree with their decision. They have the 'right' to check with you if it's ok.

You basically are saying that because people can screw over their kids while being alive, they have the right to commit suicide even if it literally ruins their children's life?

Am I? Here's a clue: the answer to that question is not 'Yes'.

What are you talking about?

Well if you string all the posts in a thread together, you'll often that there's a greater meaning than the mere sum of the parts. In this case, someone had suggested, as an argument against suicide, that suicide hurt people. I pointed out that being alive hurt people. Is it also an argument against being alive? Or is it just a failed argument against suicide?

How about you try not to do BOTH.

Your unwarranted assumptions are hurtful. I do try not to do either - but I'll repeat, again, my request for anyone who can claim they have never physically or psychologically hurt anyone (and I'll repeat, again, my assertion that anyone who makes such a claim is merely so self-absorbed that they do not register the pain they inflict on others). You're now ineligible, by the way.

You make it sound like the fact that parents can screw up their kids while alive that somehow negates any trauma they cause by committing suicide.

I do? Here's a clue: the answer to this question is not 'Yes' either.

When you decide to be a parent to that child,

What an ideal world you live in. Some mothers (and more fathers) do not 'decide' to be parents. But that's beside the point.

you have a responsibility to do all that you can to do right by that child. Sometimes we will hurt them anyways no matter how hard we try, but we have to try.

Thank you for the parenting lesson. Can I book my grandmother in for Egg Sucking 101? Thank you also for conceding that we will hurt our loved ones. But I'll not thank you for an opinion on the nature of suicidal minds that isn't even informed by the thoughtful, intelligent and researched opinions in this thread, let alone any wider reading or knowledge. Do you really believe that anybody who kills themselves just couldn't be arsed to try? "nah, sod it, I'll just top mesself".

It is not childish to state that parents should do all that they can to not ruining their children's lives, and I don't even know how you can claim that.

And of course I didn't. I quite specifically, pointedly and purposefully did not use the word 'childish'. I clearly stated that I was not using it, and why. I did say something to the effect that it was 'childesque' to imagine that your parents lives were yours.

Having to deal with a loved one if they are perpetually severely mentally or physically ill can be just as emotionally devastating and life ruining as having said person kill themselves. I would not judge a person who had a severely debilitating illness that could not be successfully treated decided to end their lives even if they had a family.

We've established that suicide is only wrong when you haven't given your permission - I'm not sure that you're adding much here, except a nebulous concept of 'severly debilitating'. Is not any condition that results in an attempt on your own life necessarily 'severely debilitating'?

But I do not think it is something that you just have the moral right to do when you know your death is going to directly impact the people it is your responsibility to care for. Child neglect is illegal, is it not? What could be more neglectful that intentionally leaving your child, who depends on you for protection and for provision.

And yet so many notable, commended, rewarded, enobled parents join the military or the space programme, or work down mines or on trawlers, or climb mountains or explore deserts and so on...

(As an aside, I am not familiar with legislation the world over, but I do know that this is the world wide web and you would do well to remember that too - it is quite likely that what appertains in your neighbourhood will not apply in mine).

I find it shocking that you think it childish for a person to feel wrong that their father's intentional, direct actions resulted in them, a dependent child, having their lives ruined.

See above, where I didn't, and don't, and so on.

Is your argument just basically that people have the right to do whatever they want and bear no responsibility for the direct result their actions have on others, even in the case of minors who are their legal responsibility?

Is it? Strike 3.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

jiggeryqua,

how is someone being in the military even remotely related to a parent committing suicide without providing for their children? I was talking about very specific cases of suicides which I find to be especially hard to understand...one in which the parent of the child knows for a fact that their suicide will result in their child being put in a dangerous situation and yet they do it anyways. I think if a parent ever does anything that they know will endanger their children it is wrong. This was such a case as Ducky described and you responded to.

It is completely irrational of you to compare this to a military parent. if the military parent ALSO intentionally leaves their child in a position in which they would be endangered, then yes, they would be just as bad as a parent who killed themselves. but my husband is in the military. he comes from a military family. Most of the people we know are in the military. None of their children are neglected. military people do not know they are going to die and in fact is it is extremely unlikely they will. everyone I know who is in the military who has children has provisions for if something happens to them to make sure they will be well taken cared for. that is completely different from killing yourself and leaving no provisions for your children and it is utterly irrational for you to make the comparison.

these two situations are not even remotely comparable.

and the reason I find it more understandable (I certainly don't feel it's for me to say whether it's right or wrong) for a parent who is debilitatingly ill - or anyone, for that matter- to commit suicide with a family is because in that situation the parent is not able to care for the child anyways. though this again is assuming arrangements have been made for the child so that they are being care for by others and again will not be endangered directly due to that parents' death. I do realize that by saying 'I don't judge people who are very ill who commit suicide' implies that I do judge those who aren't very ill who do. that was poorly worded of me and let me assure you I certainly don't think I have the right to judge anyone in that way. What I really mean is that I more easily understand suicides if the person is very mentally or physically ill.

i don't think I have the right to classify suicides as right or wrong, I think you misunderstood me on that. You agree that parents have a responsibility to do all they can for their children. my only point is that any parent has a responsibility to protect their child. if you intentionally take an action which endangers that child, you are failing in your parental responsibilities.



'but I'll not thank you for an opinion on the nature of suicidal minds that isn't even informed by the thoughtful, intelligent and researched opinions in this thread, let alone any wider reading or knowledge'

I was not trying to imply that suicidal people do not try to do right by their children. Having been hospitalized myself with the mentally ill, I know that many many suicidal people honestly think they are dong the right thing by their families and that they should be dead, or they may be so depressed that they simply are not thinking rationally, or the pain is just too deep. But this again is a case when the person is not really committing suicide because they are thinking rationally, but rather are influenced by illness. So in this case, I *do think people should intervene and try to help them because as I said in the second post, because they are sick. i do not think we should just kick back and say, 'they are an autonomous human being, we will let them kill themselves and not try and help them.' And also i make no claims into knowing about the suicidal mind because though we may have threads of commonality, no two suicidal minds are exactly the same, and I make no assumptions as to the mindset of anyone else. you were completely offended for absolutely no reason and tell me i'm not informed? I spent months in a mental hospital. Your accusation that I am uninformed about issues surrounding suicide is baseless.


also, "thank you for conceding that we hurt our loved ones?' really? you strike that one as a win, as if you'd made some point I had to be convinced of? We hurt our loved ones. in other news, rain is wet. what is the point of that argument of course we are going to hurt people. Again, what does the fact that hurting people is inevitable have anything to do with this conversation? How does it make suicide more acceptable when it endangers your children? What is the point you are trying to make? if we SHOULDN'T hurt people, and you commit suicide in a way which would directly endanger your dependent children, then how do you feel your argument that we hurt people in other ways than suicide somehow makes such suicides more acceptable? If this is not the point you were making...then i confess your posts are just too filled with straw men for me to make any sense of your arguments.

I feel we would all benefit if you calmed down, stop writing hostile replies, and presented your argument in a rational and thought out matter. because as it stands now you just aren't making much sense. your last post was both hard to understand and mostly just hostile and unnecessarly defensive. you're just sort of saying things that have nothing to do with whether or not suicide prevention is helpful or should be offered. military families, people hurt people...your posts are mostly just comprised of straw men and open hostility.

I do appreciate your points about personal autonomy, and I do think that is very important to take into consideration. My point was really only that knowingly endangering kids is bad. and I think we agree on that so i don't think we need to argue about it further. and I'm not trying to argue whether suicide is 'right' or 'wrong' because as i said i don't think that is for me to classify.

What i am really interested in is how the concept of 'autonomy' should be considered when mental illness is in play. i would be interested to hear your thoughts on that subject because i think it could be a very interesting discussion if done in a civil manner.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I feel we would all benefit if you calmed down

I feel we would all benefit if you restricted your comments to things you knew, that is to say, if you spoke for yourself rather than imagining you could speak for other people, whose demeanour you believe you can accurately identify from text. Do you have any plans to apply for the million dollar challenge?

your posts are just too filled with straw men[...]your posts are mostly just comprised of straw men

My last post was varied, but included three references to strawmen of yours. Quick, claim I'm making them, and hope nobody notices yours.

in other news, rain is wet[...]My point was really only that knowingly endangering kids is bad

In other news, rain is wet and internet forum posters criticise in others the faults they see in themselves.

you're just sort of saying things that have nothing to do with whether or not suicide prevention is helpful or should be offered.

The thread is about suicide awareness. We have been discussing suicide more broadly for a while. The subject of suicide prevention has cropped up, but it is not the same as awareness, even if your gut response to 'suicide' is 'prevention'

I don't care for the idea that people have a choice but can be declared mentally ill when they make the 'wrong' choice. Definitions of mental illness have a chequered history, involving repression of 'undesirable' ideas (the independence of women, for example).

i think it could be a very interesting discussion if done in a civil manner.

World Wide Web - your local 'civility' is unlikely to match mine, and vice versa. If you can identify forum transgressions in my posts, I exhort you to report me. I certainly shan't be recognising the inate superiority of your localised version of etiquette or manners, nor would I expect you to recognise mine. I guess we'll both have to work at it, eh...

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

"I don't care for the idea that people have a choice but can be declared mentally ill when they make the 'wrong' choice. Definitions of mental illness have a chequered history, involving repression of 'undesirable' ideas (the independence of women, for example)."

The fact that people have been unfairly institutionalized, lobotomized, etc due to false claims of mental illness does not negate the fact that real treatable mental illness exists and that many treatably mentally ill will not get help on their own due to the nature of their illness. And yes I think there can be cases with people unfairly diagnosed and medicated as mentally ill. But there are also plenty of mentally ill people who are clearly identifiable by their loved ones as mentally ill, who need help, and who are too sick to get it on your own.


If my family hadn't stepped in, I probably would be dead now. I am very glad my parents didn't say, "You know, maybe we shouldn't get help for our 75 pound daughter who's having daily panic attacks and making veiled reference to suicide because women were commonly repressed using claims of mental illness in the past." one thing has nothing to do with the other. I was a very sick person, and I was unable to help myself. my parents WEREN'T upset because I had undesirable ideas. they were upset because I was clearly a threat to myself. the fact that there have been people who have had their children institutionalized for no other reason than having undesirable ideas has zero, nothing, zip to do with my parents knowing their daughter is at risk of death because she is clearly acting in a threatening and irrational manner. There are many people I know who are happy, healthy, and thriving today because their families intervened and begged them to get help.

AGAIN with the straw man. If you have a woman who has a real treatable mental illness, whether or not she receives help should have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that another woman somewhere else was repressed due to FALSE claims of mental illness.

 

[Cain]

Fine, fine, I'll inject some like into this thread.

I briefly worked as a suicide counselor, but I'm certain the center had an agenda. Almost regardless of what people said we had to tell them suicide was not the answer. So much for listening.

They also used the worst possible language. Suicide. What about "abort" or "self-cancel"? Big no-nos. You could never mention the sunk cost fallacy, much less observe that "no one has ever regretted a successful suicide."

The prank calls were the best part of working there because you could say whatever you wanted, and I got more of them than anyone else.

 

[HansMustermann]

I went back and re-read your posts to try to find the origin of your hostility,

And of course, your twisting words out of context and inventing strawman contradictions instead of supporting your claims with logic, couldn't possibly have anything to do with it

and from what I can see, you're really just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Ad hominem circumstantial. Regardless of what my motives or personality might be, I still invite you to address the actual points instead of such sophistry.

Pretty much anything anyone has suggested to combat suicide, you've shot down

Well, yes, I must be such a horrible person to ask for a logically coherent system, instead of joining in the emotionally-loaded BS sophistry. Sorry about that, I must have been confused about what board I was on.

all while excusing yourself from adopting an actual stance by saying stuff like, "Not that I think this way, but...."

... which is more non-sequitur. Regardless of what I think or don't think, you're still invited to use logic instead of this kind of BS.

Again, I thought you were playing devil's advocate, now I'm convinced you're a nihilist.

Which just tells me you don't even know what nihilism is.

But regardless, it's just more ad-hominem circumstantial. If you actually have a point, it should be no problem to support it with logic instead of BS speculation about my motives or philosopy. Do you plan to start any time soon?

...and I can't relate to the concept of nihilism (or suicide), so I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree...

Even skipping past the fact that you don't even know what nihilism is, that's fully irrelevant. We're not at a popularity contest. The goal isn't to hold hands and pretend we embrace each other's values, but to support a position by data and logic.

I mean, if drugs don't work...

According to actual medical studies, yes, anti-depressants don't do much for suicide. Sadly.

...reaching out for help doesn't work...

Actually, that _would_ help in about half the cases, but telling someone that he's a complete failure and a "selfish anti-social dick" for it, sure won't get them to get help. Even taking your dodge that you're only judging those who already tried it, a major problem is re-attempting it. A full third re-attempt in the first year and nearly half within a year and a half. And that widespread judgment that they're such failures sure won't help someone clinically depressed, and won't get them to confess that, basically, they've learned nothing the first time around and are considering being a "selfish anti-social dick" again. (As that popular judgment goes.)

...and most people can't be helped anyway...

Unfortunately. Or not without changing the culture majorly, and that ain't going to happen.

...then there aren't very many options left, are there Hans? Pretty much only one option. Am I right?

If that means the "stop trying to guilt-trip some people who are already depressive" option, yes, pretty much that's it.

It's almost ironic that people in this thread are attempting to blame me (yes, me personally) for the potential death of an imaginary person on the brink, when I've given numerous reasons why they should live, while HansMustermann (and others) have given numerous reasons why the suicidal should just go ahead and kill themselves.

More emotionally charged distortions already?

Hans even showed remorse for not having gone through with it.

It was a question to establish exactly how far does that obligation to others go, since that was the excuse you waved around. But I should have guessed that you'd use it like this instead of actually answering. I guess playing the emotional BS card must be easier than actually addressing the point, huh?

I honestly cannot understand this mentality... and I'm thankful for that.

Except, of course, nobody was asking you to adopt or understand any particular mentality except your own. That was all that was required to actually answer the question instead of playing the emotionally ditressed prom-queen some more.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Fine, fine, I'll inject some like into this thread.

I briefly worked as a suicide counselor, but I'm certain the center had an agenda. Almost regardless of what people said we had to tell them suicide was not the answer. So much for listening.

They also used the worst possible language. Suicide. What about "abort" or "self-cancel"? Big no-nos. You could never mention the sunk cost fallacy, much less observe that "no one has ever regretted a successful suicide."

The prank calls were the best part of working there because you could say whatever you wanted, and I got more of them than anyone else.

cain,
did you stop working for this line because you disapproved of the way it was run, or did you just not find it effective? Of course you may have just left for some other reason entirely. Did you find that they just wanted you to treat all calls as if they were the same and use a standard script?

I could see how that would be aggravating when there is not one standardized suicidal person. Not everyone who is suicidal is mentally ill, and people, whether ill or not, are going to have a million different reasons they feel the way they do.


jigg,
I do however, agree that mental illness certainly is not cut and dry. I think you're right that suicidal people are typically assumed to be mentally unbalanced but certainly that should not just be assumed by someone due to the choices they make, like suicide. In certain cases, like mine, and most other people I was hospitalized with, the mental illness is apparent and anyone who spent more than a brief time with me would have realized there was something seriously wrong with me.

however, it isn't always that way, is it? I was on the further end of the spectrum, but for people not so outwardly ranting, it becomes much more difficult to determine . Also, there are degrees of illness. One can have emotional/mental issues but still be thinking clearly and true to themselves. I know soldiers who suffered from PTSD but never reached a point where they weren't capable of rational decision making. There is simply no clear line, no exact recognizable point at which we can say, "Ah ha! You, sir, are clearly so mentally ill that you are incapacitated and incapable of making rational, genuine informed decision." Thus when you are dealing with cases where the person is NOT acting so extreme that mental illness is undeniable, it can indeed be very, very difficult to determine whether or not a person is actually forming honest informed opinions or if their thoughts/intents are just symptomatic of illness.

however, that is a completely separate issue than someone who is completely normal but has unpopular views (like suffragettes) who is then maliciously accused of mental illness as a way to suppress their ideology. your arguments are continuously getting bogged down by straw men that have nothing to do with this conversation and it make it much more difficult to understand your overall point.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

While I don't mean to minimize your problems, the largest bulk of suicides are males, who are by traditional gender role supposed to be tough and all that. Due to education and culture, even admitting that one is depressed or even remotely considering giving up and abandoning one's "duty" is for a lot of people pretty much akin wearing a big "I'm a loser sign."

Not saying you gals have it easy or easier in other aspects, but just saying that you're allowed to, say, cry on someone's shoulder. Depending on the culture and group, a guy might as well start wearing a pink tutu if he does that.

Reminding someone that yep, the thing they're considering, is such a horribly anti-social act and failure to fulfill their role, really doesn't help to get them talk about it. Telling a friend about it or calling a hotline to tell a stranger about it, well, it's like admitting being an utterly abject failure of a human being. Because that's what such attitudes around them kept telling them.

So they'll keep it bottled up inside instead of going and getting some help. As was said, most of them won't admit to anyone that they even ever thought of suicide, until the day they surprise everyone by actually doing it.

_That_ is where such societal attitudes don't help. I'm not saying that talking of suicide as the work of "selfish anti-social dicks", and talking about how they failed everyone and society at large, is what drives someone to suicide in the first place. But it might very well be what keeps them from getting help.

Plus, it might just make them feel as even more of a failure in the last stages, and feeling like a complete failure is the reason behind enough suicides.

Hans I think this is an excellent point. In my own experience, I do feel that there is often more of a stigma for men than for women seeking help. For instance before and after I was hospitalized, I faced very little judgment for others for my eating disorder. People who were aware of it were sympathetic. I was constantly encouraged by others around me to talk about my feelings and reach out for help. However, several men I met while in patient discussed about how they were shut down if they ever tried to reach out to people, dismissed as whiney or weak. Not every guy I knew had been meant to feel that way, but in my limited, personal experience when hospitalized, the women/girls I spoke with about the subject had typically given more support and judged less than men/boys I spoke with.

I also agree that I don't think trying to 'guilt' someone out of suicide is useful, as opposed to actually listening to them and their problems and trying to approach them constructively, in a way which gives them hope for the future.

 

[rustypouch]

Hans I think this is an excellent point. In my own experience, I do feel that there is often more of a stigma for men than for women seeking help. For instance before and after I was hospitalized, I faced very little judgment for others for my eating disorder. People who were aware of it were sympathetic. I was constantly encouraged by others around me to talk about my feelings and reach out for help. However, several men I met while in patient discussed about how they were shut down if they ever tried to reach out to people, dismissed as whiney or weak. Not every guy I knew had been meant to feel that way, but in my limited, personal experience when hospitalized, the women/girls I spoke with about the subject had typically given more support and judged less than men/boys I spoke with.

I also agree that I don't think trying to 'guilt' someone out of suicide is useful, as opposed to actually listening to them and their problems and trying to approach them constructively, in a way which gives them hope for the future.

Considering that men have a suicide rate about four times greater than that of women, there is something that should be explored.

I agree about the judgment issue. Men are supposed to be strong, so any expression of weakness is generally met with distain, or worse.

 

[jiggeryqua]

jigg,[...]
your arguments are continuously getting bogged down by straw men that have nothing to do with this conversation and it make it much more difficult to understand your overall point.

Strange that you only mentioned strawmen after my detailed response to your post which was stuffed with them...in particular, you suddenly shifted the goalposts to imagine all suicides were wilfully endangering their children (that you assumed they had) and then repeatedly implied that I was arguing for the wilful endangerment of minors. In comparison to that, reducing my nick to 'jigg' is barely offensive at all.

I can see that you do not understand my overall point, although I've been quite clear and succinct. Suggesting that your lack of understanding is my fault is not an entirely unfamiliar tactic - I'm sure some people retain their self belief with all manner of unsupported or unsupportable self-serving interpretations of reality, and I know how capable I can be, for example, of refusing to 'see' an idea that would unsettle the framework of my understanding of the world.

If you're genuninely interested in understanding my overall point, I suggest you try reading the whole thread, with each post in context, and if you have any more questions, try rigorously attempting to find the answers in the posts or at least stop to ask yourself if, like 'are you saying you have the right to wilfuly endanger your children?', the questions are not merely the product of fantastical delusions. At any rate, don't bother addressing them to me, I take no particular pleasure in being rude to people.