9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[9/11-investigator]

Funny how our investigator seems relunctant to proclaim his views to his fellow Netherlanders. I wonder why........

How can you be so sure that I have not?

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breach of rules 0, 12.

 

[TSR]

A neutral observer might tend to the conclusion that all these H-word big shots prefer to communicate with their sheepish lefty students, who love the H-word and from whom no real oppopsition is to be expected (the kind of pupils our own Nick Terry loves so much) but as soon as they encounter some real opposition these cowards chicken out.

Tentative conclusion: there was no Holocaust.

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No, a *neutral* observer would actually what to see the responses to better determine why these people have refused: is it scheduling? geographically prohibitive? Or perhaps Lipstadt's well known and long standing policy not to directly engage deniers?

Tentative conclusion, actually *supported* by the evidence: 9/11 will grasp at any straw to support zir denial.

Even if that straw results is his public refusal to condemn his heroes' orders to round up and murder innocent children...
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[9/11-investigator]

Thanks for the apologies and for checking the article at the library. Apologies on my part for calling you a liar - that was too strong. I can see now how the story can have morphed.


That's why we, in general, don't argue from personal stories but from careful work from archivarians and historians who studied the archives and the official papers.

Agree.

Note also that Chawwa and Selma were not quite immediate family. Chawwa's great-grandfather was Selma's grandfather. That makes Selma her first-cousin-once-removed (in Dutch: achtertante). Do you know all such faraway family members? I hardly know all my ordinary cousins...

No I don't and I like to keep it that way.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

One wonders what points Matthew wants to make here?

My point is quite clear
1) Hoess wrote a private account while waiting for his sentence saying he was beaten, in an attempt to obtain rights to an appeal. His account includes fabrication errors.
2) At the trial he gives a made up figure, the prosecution realises what is going on and then puts Hoess back into the box and forces Hoess to admit he doesn't know the figure, ruining Hoess chance of appeal.
3) Holocaust Deniers edit out the later part of the trial in their "stories"

Kaufmann no doubt is one of the 70% Jews who conducted this show trial scam in Nuremberg.

OK, so you are anti-jewish and a holocaust denier. What else is new? Did you notice that 100% of the defendants were Nazis? They were the one on trial in case you have forgotten.

 

[VonKleist]

A few hours later the story had morphed in my head into one where Chawwa had done family tree research and had found several family members everywhere in America. After carefull rereading it is obvious that all these new family members probably are all offspring from Selma. My excuses for these inaccuracies, not a result from intentional lying but from quoting from memory.

Dear, dear. Your memory also appears to be 'quite faulty' then.

So what was the reason for this extra bit of embellishment?

She discovered that many family members were living in Canada and the US who were assumed to be dead but instead pursuing a career as holocaust survivor.

 

[tsig]

Sure, they were transported to the camps, but where did they go after if they weren't killed? That's the question. They can't have vanished into thin air after all.

The good Germans, ever watchful for the care of Jews, kindly transported them to heaven.

 

[tsig]

I can assure you that a. Vievis was connected by the Germans to the standard gauge line by 1943, regardless out many branch lines they had going to local destinations. b. Even if it wasnt, Jews are unable to get off one train and embark on another.


Still in Holland, one presumes.

Incidentally, Mr Ellard, you might be interested in Rich Cohen's account of one female partisan from Wilna going on a raid in July 1942
page 61-63 The Avengers


One can certainly see how annoying it must have been. The stubborn refusal of the Germans to kill Jews.

Nice to be assured that you want it both ways.

 

[TSR]

"While I have received a few cordial refusals, notably from Shermer and Lipstadt"

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Funny, that -- since I have now been forwarded an email from Lipstadt in which she categorically denies ever even having received any such invitation, let alone sending a "cordial refusal."

And given that Dalton is an admitted liar, having tried to steal someone elses' identity, I see no reason to take his word over Lipstadt's.

So, final conclusion, based on the evidence: this claim was a lie, one which 9/11 mindlessly parroted, just like zie mindlessly parrots any other lie that seems to justify zir irrational hate.

Now, shall we get back to all of those children killed under Jäger's orders and by his command? In what way had they been "tormenting the locals" or "killing Germans?"
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[9/11-investigator]

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Funny, that -- since I have now been forwarded an email from Lipstadt in which she categorically denies ever even having received any such invitation, let alone sending a "cordial refusal."

Wow, TSR is almost on a per du basis with La Lipstadt (warning, graphic)... quite in sync with TSR's eagerness not to inform us about his own ethnic/religious affiliations. Obviously because the truth would hurt his credibility as an independent observer of historic facts, as he likes to present himself.

So, final conclusion, based on the evidence: this claim was a lie, one which 9/11 mindlessly parroted, just like zie mindlessly parrots any other lie that seems to justify zir irrational hate.

Style-tip: this sort of anti-German 'humor' is so nineties-have-I-got-news-for-you that it hurts the eyes.

Now, shall we get back to all of those children killed under Jäger's orders and by his command?

TSR systematically downplays the little inconvenient fact that according to TSR's own pals from the WC, 96% of the killings were carried out by the locals, not by the Germans. And TSR has yet to prove that these locals did so against there own free will, out of revenge rather than forced by the Germans.

But I have to agree with TSR, killing these children was a big crime. With this crime the locals put themselves on the same level as the barbarous Allies who did exactly the same by raining down bombs on cities thereby killing hundreds of thousands of children. The difference was that the Anglo's had no reason to do this in their war of choice, in contrast to the inhabitants of the Baltic states who were all too keen to take revenge for the barbarous acts carried out by the Bolsheviks a year before the Germans invaded and where the local Jews in overwhelming numbers supported the Bolshevik takeover.

 

[Nick Terry]

This link illustrates the sorry state of holocaustianism, the current religion of the West, now on its way out:

http://truthjihad.blogspot.com/2010/04/dear-andrea-merkel-how-much-do-raul.html

This story is about mr Dalton who recently wrote this book on the H-word.

Although the title ("Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides") might suggest otherwise, his conclusions are clearly tilted towards the revisionnist position, although Dalton goes to great length to prove that the H-word somehow really did happen (but, you see, not the 6M H-word).

Mr. Dalton will appear in a show, and now, surprise, surprise, nobody wants to debate him!

The 'best documented event in history', but nobody seems to be keen to score a few easy points against this scoundrel.

Over the past few months I have invited Deborah Lipstadt, Michael Shermer, John Zimmerman--the three most prominent critics of the "Holocaust deniers" -- as well as many dozens of professors from several of the leading Holocaust and Genocide Studies and Jewish Studies programs. While I have received a few cordial refusals, notably from Shermer and Lipstadt, the vast majority of the academic "experts" have refused to respond...as has anti-revisionist blogger Muehlenkamp.

A neutral observer might tend to the conclusion that all these H-word big shots prefer to communicate with their sheepish feminized lefty students, who love the H-word horros story and from whom no real opposition is to be expected (the kind of pupils our own Nick Terry loves so much) but as soon as they encounter some real opposition these cowards chicken out.

Tentative conclusion: there was no Holocaust.

So much wrongness in one post. Admittedly our intrepid Dutch spambot could be expected to exhibit extreme credulity towards anything claimed by a fellow Twoofer, but still.

Inquiries revealed that Deborah Lipstadt never received an email from Kevin Barrett at all, though she would have declined in keeping with her principle, held to since the late 1980s, of never debating Holocaust deniers. This makes one wonder whether Barrett emailed Zimmerman or Shermer, but certainly calls into question either his veracity or his competence. Take your pick.

It turned out that Roberto Muehlenkamp never received an email either. He contacted Barrett and was told that an email had gone to a non-functional address. So maybe Barrett did, maybe Barrett didn't.

Anyhow, supposedly, Barrett will open up the first hour of his show to Dalton, and the second hour to Muehlenkamp. There will be no head-to-head, which is probably a smart thing to do since we all know what happens when cranks debate in real time - they Gish Gallop. So a "debate" will happen, sort of.

There are of course many good reason why professors in the US or elsewhere will decline to appear on a conspiracist internet radio show to talk in parallel with Dalton. Firstly, academic debate does not work well on the radio or TV, as any fule kno. It is geared towards conference presentations, towards books and articles, towards seminars. Very few academics are able to sum up their subjects for popular, general consumption, and most of those are attacked, rightly, for dumbing down their subjects. The whole point of academic discourse is to transcend soundbites, catchphrases, slogans and to deal with evidence, rather than rhetoric. Anyone who thinks an internet radio show is the proper place for a really serious debate on any subject is utterly deluded.

Moreover, debate implies a discussion between peers. Dalton is nobody's peer. He is someone who has no academic standing and has evidently hijacked another academic's name to use as a pseudonym. His book does not meet academic standards and is woefully ignorant of mainstream historical research, in addition to the usual fallacy-mongering and ridiculous claims.

In order for there to be a proper debate, a would-be debating partner has to meet generally accepted standards. Holocaust deniers have consistently failed to do this. That is one of the reasons why their work is rejected by every single academic in a relevant discipline.

What would be considered generally accepted standards is not that difficult to find out. It means writing properly sourced articles or books with a clear argument, in the humanities and social sciences to the tune of about 8000 words/article and 100,000 words/book. It means keeping abreast of all the relevant literature in the field you purport to contribute to. And it means making arguments that do not resort to logical fallacies, especially that of special pleading. (Look it up.) Finally, it means passing that nasty ol' thing called peer review.

Some few Holocaust deniers have passed the first threshold, by writing material that looks vaguely like a proper academic article or book. They fall at the second, third and fourth fences. In the unlikely event that a Holocaust denier was to clear all four hurdles, then maybe, just maybe, there might be a real debate.

Instead, we have a situation where a sprawling mess of 'revisionist' literature is cherrypicked and plundered for soundbites by a small number of denier groupies, like the Dutch spambot. It wouldn't even be possible to debate the revisionist oeuvre on its own terms with most deniers since they don't seem to have read most of their own guru's writings. Instead they spew out a series of long-debunked arguments, some of which have been discarded by the leading gurus as ineffective. Sometimes even the supposed gurus do that. In his book, Dalton manages to resurrect the 'World Almanac' gambit, a statistical trick so threadbare that it boggles the imagination as to why he would think anyone other than a credulous denier would fall for it.

It's certainly possible to analyse the incoherent revisionist oeuvre and try to work out what it is they are arguing, but that would not be a debate. Some of the gurus have tried to comment on past analyses of 'revisionism' and get the last word in - which is their right, but that's also not a debate. To have a debate, there has to be a set of shared premises and agreed principles, which doesn't exist in this case any more than it does with most other conspiracy/woo related 'debates' on the internet. Most of the time, cranks seem to think they can make things up as they go along and reinvent the rules of knowledge, blithely unconcerned with how their special pleading would effectively annihilate half of humanity's knowledge claims.

All this is another way of saying something deniers will hate, namely the burden of proof is on them to come up with a convincing argument in order to earn the right to a debate.

Like it or not, the subject in question - the mass murder of more than 5 million Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators, in parallel to the mass murder of millions more non-Jews at the same hands - has been investigated and researched fairly continuously for 65 years now. There have been literally tens of thousands of investigations - 36,000 are recorded for Germany alone, as well as more than 2000 trials - and something approaching 50,000 books written about it, including memoirs, popular/journalistic accounts as well as academic histories.

Deniers often demand that a specific type of investigation be done or a specific single-study be written that is somehow perfect. But that is not how the world works; you deal with the evidence on the table, as it exists whether you like it or not. With something as extensive as the Holocaust, there can be no such thing as the One Big Decisive Investigation. There are rather, tens of thousands of little ones, and some bigger ones, all converging through literally, trial and error, towards greater and greater knowledge and understanding. That is how all methods of inquiry work in our societies.

If deniers actually explored this body of evidence honestly, they would find the answers to their rhetorical questions; they would learn that their bare-assertions of 'no evidence for x' or 'never properly investigated in such-and-such a way' are flat out wrong. Small wonder that deniers, like all other conspiraloons and woo-merchants, studiously avoid studying and are evidently allergic to reading, let alone proper research. If they did any of those things, their delusions might be at risk. Can't have that.

As for the lazy insult of "sheepish feminized lefty students", anyone making such a claim evidently has not been to university, or if somehow they managed to do so, spent their student years with their heads up where the sun don't shine. I'm pretty sure there are more macho Republican JREFers with higher education under their belt than there are members of CODOH forum. I certainly teach a politically diverse student cohort each year, and wouldn't have it any other way.

It's certainly clear that our friend has not matriculated on a humanities or social science course, as if he had, he would know that argument is practically the raison d'etre of these disciplines, and students are encouraged, nay forced, to consider opposing views to their own. The catch is that such opposing views have to have some merit to be considered in the first place...

Firm conclusion: 9/11-investigator doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

[TSR]

Wow, TSR is almost on a per du basis with La Lipstadt... quite in sync with TSR's eagerness not to inform us about his own ethnic/religious affiliations. Obviously because the truth would hurt his credibility as an independent observer of historic facts, as he likes to present himself.

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Funny that you never quite get around to actually *demonstrating* any problems with my credibility -- you know, by pointing out that I have distorted or lied about historical fact the way that you and your heroes do...

Guess that's what happens when you are so desperate to distract from this *particular* lie which you mindlessly parroted and jumped to completely unsupported conclusions as a result of...
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Style-tip: this sort of anti-German 'humor' is so nineties-have-I-got-news-for-you that it hurts the eyes.

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What "anti-German humour" are you referring to?
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TSR systematically downplays the little inconvenient fact that according to TSR's own pals from the WC, 96% of the killings were carried out by the locals, not by the Germans. And TSR has yet to prove that these locals did so against there own free will, out of revenge rather than forced by the Germans.

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No, I simply point out that your heroes stated quite clearly that such killings were committed under their direction and by their orders.
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But I have to agree with TSR, killing these children was a big crime. With this crime the locals put themselves on the same level as the barbarous Allies who did exactly the same by raining down bombs on cities thereby killing hundreds of thousands of children.

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"Exactly" the same level? Do tell us all how the Allied prepared for this by specifically rounding up these children and forcing them to occupy the cities which were then bombed for no other reason than to kill children...

Then we can discuss your obvious inability to justify your statements that the EG only killed partisans, and that the locals were being tormented by these children.
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The difference was that the Anglo's had no reason to do this in their war of choice, in contrast to the inhabitants of the Baltic states who were all too keen to take revenge for the barbarous acts carried out by the Bolsheviks a year before the Germans invaded and where the local Jews in overwhelming numbers supported the Bolshevik takeover.

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"War of their choice?"

Who was it that invaded Poland, again?

And you can, of course, cite actual "overwhelming" numbers of local Jewish children supported the Bolsheviks, and detail the "barbarous acts" committed by them?

Your heroes took credit for ordering the killing: it matters not how willing the ordered were.

But *do* keep demonstrating the intellectual bankruptcy required of a denier.
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[Arisia]

Breathtaking thread, absolutely breathtaking.

Questions for the cute little bunny: where did the non-Jews the Third Reich (supposedly) didn't kill in the concentration camps end up at? Did all of them not bother to return to their hometowns/countries, too? I know!... they kept going east, really far to the east, I mean there must be vast stretches of China or Mongolia where millions of Europeans could make a life for themselves without anyone even noticing. And I hear the Gobi Desert landscape is gorgeous, much better to look at every day than fertile cropland in central Europe.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Breathtaking thread, absolutely breathtaking.

Questions for the cute little bunny: where did the non-Jews the Third Reich (supposedly) didn't kill in the concentration camps end up at? Did all of them not bother to return to their hometowns/countries, too? I know!... they kept going east, really far to the east, I mean there must be vast stretches of China or Mongolia where millions of Europeans could make a life for themselves without anyone even noticing. And I hear the Gobi Desert landscape is gorgeous, much better to look at every day than fertile cropland in central Europe.

Arisia, I am neither Hercules Poirot nor do I run a Missing Persons Bureau. I have no skills in tracking down people who do not want to be found.

However, as a token of my good faith, I can offer you the Chaim Rumkowski challenge:
Chaim Rumkowski is believed to have been last seen alive inside one of the muffles of the cremation ovens of Krema II or III. It is my belief that he may have left a note there or perhaps written in charcoal on the sides where he was heading to next.

If you can find any of the missing 30 muffles of Krema II or Krema III, (ie. from the sites currently so described), I promise I will be able to find you your missing 6 million Jews.

It seems a very reasonable offer, all you have do is find 30 inanimate objects - I have to find 6 million things that can run and hide.

 

[Skeptic]

Arisia, I am neither Hercules Poirot nor do I run a Missing Persons Bureau. I have no skills in tracking down people who do not want to be found.

Strange how millions of people "didn't want to be found" for almost 70 years now, despite desperate searches by their millions of surviving family members, just to make the poor, innocent Nazis look bad.

Somebody should have just called 911! Oh wait, the police is controlled by the evil Joooooooz, too, I forgot.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Strange how millions of people "didn't want to be found" for almost 70 years now, despite desperate searches by their millions of surviving family members, just to make the poor, innocent Nazis look bad.

What is your statistical evidence of large numbers of desperate searches? The data held by the ICRC doesnt suggest much activity.

So if they arent contacting the ICRC and Bad Arolson to conduct these desperate searches, how are they conducting them?

However, please don't reject my generous offer, Skeptic, you find a mere 30 muffles and I will find you 6 million Jews.

 

[Arisia]

So, you claim that since millions of victims of the Third Reich are unaccounted for, they weren't exterminated in various ways in camps, but pretty much every single one of them actually decided to go into hiding and not go back to their hometowns after the war instead.
Sounds like an extraordinary claim to me... and you know what they say about extraordinary claims...

I won't hold my breath, of course.

 

[Skeptic]

--Hey Ivan, what are you doing after the war?
--Returning to see my family, of course; then I am thinking of going back to school, finding a nice girl, starting a family...
--No, I've got a better idea!
--What?
--Let's hide for 70 years and pretend we're all dead!
--Where?
--Oh, in some mid-Asian desert or something.
--Why?
--So that the evil Israelies will get tons of money from the poor, innocent Germans!
--Gee... I sort of dislike the Germans, being a prisoner in their camp... and don't really care if they pay somebody money... and I've never heard of those 'Israelies' you speak about...
--You know, evil Jews!
--You mean the Jews? ... but I'm not even Jewish... and I really miss my family... why would I want to sacrifice my life living in hiding in the middle of nowhere so that some Jew I've never heard of get paid something?
--Oh, c'mon, it will be fun! The desert sunrise is really cool!
--Maybe so, but why would I want to live in a desert for the rest of my life? I'm a city boy...
--Ah, don't be a spoilsport! I asked -- the other 50,000 camp inmates are all in on the joke!
--You know something? You're right. It's just too good. I'm in!

 

[carlitos]

I try not to post in this thread, but I do read it and learn a lot. Can one of the rational posters please enlighten me about the "muffles?" I'm not following. Thanks in advance.

 

[little grey rabbit]

carlitos - a muffle is like an oven, except that it is part of one furnace.

If you look at this picture there are 2 furnaces with 3 muffles apiece.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/EasternGermany/Buchenwald/KremaTrolley.JPG

Good Lord, I have just given Skeptic et.al. 6 of the 30 muffles they need to find. Now for the last 24.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Brand new video on H-word pope Elie Wiesel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr8_JaKde2Q

Definitely no tattoo.

Probably washed it off under the shower after his last H-word speech to the tune of $40,000 (all credit cards accepted).

Make sure to download this video, collectors item!