9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[little grey rabbit]

99 000 overcoats after a deportation of 2.5 million people (minimum) from Poland, France, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Holland, Italy, Greece doesnt sound very convincing evidence of mass murder - especially when you consider they had luggage restrictions.

There is plenty evidence of forced requisition of clothing from Ghettos by Germans and forced donations in Germany of Jews and voluntary collection from non-Jews.

In the absence of bodies, murder weapon or graves and in the presence of confirmed sightings further east, that fact that Germans looted clothing doesnt seem particularly convincing.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

99 000 overcoats after a deportation of 2.5 million people (minimum) from Poland, France, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Holland, Italy, Greece doesnt sound very convincing evidence of mass murder - especially when you consider they had luggage restrictions.

99,000 male overcoats plus 155,000 female coats plus 15,000 childrens overcoats. That's 279,000 human overcoats concerning only Belzec Sobibor and Treblinka. The countries you mentioned, Holland, France, Germany, Italy and Greece have nothing to do with it as this was not Pohl's command area

In his affidavit of 2 April 1947, Pohl explained that he was working under the direction of Himmler and directly over Globocnik to manage the economic aspects of Aktion Reinhard(t).

It was never doubted that this loot was taken from Jews exterminated in the concentration camps. * * * As I learned in 1943, gold teeth and crowns of inmates of concentration camps were broken out of their mouths after liquidation. This gold was melted down and delivered to the Reich Bank. * * * When I received all the vouchers, setting out the economic assets received, I realized the extent of the operation. I realized that the greatest part of the textile goods listed in these reports had been taken from people who had been violently put to death and that the purpose of the operation had been the extermination of the Jews.

In the absence of bodies, murder weapon or graves and in the presence of confirmed sightings further east, that fact that Germans looted clothing doesnt seem particularly convincing.

So why would Pohl say they came from dead concentration camp victims? He ran this activity. Do you think he was also lying?

Why do you say there were no bodies found? Judge Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz has found the evidence for you at Treblinka.

November 11, 1945
The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition

In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay. http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/07/polish-investigations-of-treblinka.html

 

[little grey rabbit]

99,000 male overcoats plus 155,000 female coats plus 15,000 childrens overcoats. That's 279,000 human overcoats concerning only Belzec Sobibor and Treblinka. The countries you mentioned, Holland, France, Germany, Italy and Greece have nothing to do with it as this was not Pohl's command area

No its the end report for Aktion Reinhard(t). Auschwitz and Majdanek were also Aktion Reinhard(t) stations and it covered the entire deportation (but not the Baltics and Russia)

In Kiev, Germans actually confiscated the overcoats from Russian POWs being marched westwards to the Reich.

So removal of overcoats is not sufficient evidence of killing?

Is that all you've got? A bunch of overcoats?

Any comment on the fact that Dutch Jews are being spotted all through the Baltics?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

No its the end report for Aktion Reinhard(t). Auschwitz and Majdanek were also Aktion Reinhard(t) stations and it covered the entire deportation (but not the Baltics and Russia)

The trains ended up at Auschwitz. They didn't need to transport the clothes on trains to Auschwitz did they?

In Kiev, Germans actually confiscated the overcoats from Russian POWs being marched westwards to the Reich.

The SS didn't administer Russian prisoners of War. Try harder next time.

So removal of overcoats is not sufficient evidence of killing? Is that all you've got? A bunch of overcoats?

No I also quoted Pohl It was never doubted that this loot was taken from Jews exterminated in the concentration camps. which you pretended not to read.

I also quoted Judge Łukaszkiewicz examination of Treblinka "one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains" which you also pretended not to read.

Please explain why you didn't comment on these quotes?

Any comment on the fact that Dutch Jews are being spotted all through the Baltics?

I don't see what dutch jews have got to do with Treblinka. Please explain the connection.

 

[little grey rabbit]

The trains ended up at Auschwitz. They didn't need to transport the clothes on trains to Auschwitz did they?

Some trains ended up in Auschwitz, some ended up in the Baltics, some in Warsaw, some went to the Ukraine, some went via Malkinia, some via Sobibor, some vis Izbica.

It is possible that Germans looted overcoats and other clothes at certain places. Also since luggage was restricted, the ghetto was available for plundering after deportation in Poland, where over half the transports originated from

The SS didn't administer Russian prisoners of War. Try harder next time.

It was an example how looting clothing does not mean gassing, you nong

No I also quoted Pohl It was never doubted that this loot was taken from Jews exterminated in the concentration camps. which you pretended not to read.

Statements by POWs being broken for show trial purposes have limited evidentiary value in my opinion.

I also quoted Judge Łukaszkiewicz examination of Treblinka "one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains" which you also pretended not to read.

No, I simply ignored it, it as no one claims that anything like 800 000 bodies were found, no one claims 1000 bodies were found. There were legitimate camps in the area.

Please explain why you didn't comment on these quotes?

Because I take no pleasure in pointing out your ignorance and dishonesty.

I don't see what dutch jews have got to do with Treblinka. Please explain the connection.

It is useful only in pointing out your ignorance and dishonesty.

Dutch Jews were supposedly deported to Sobibor. I was trying to console Blue Space Oddity, who seem distraught by this, by pointing out there were numerous cases of Dutch Jews being sighted in the Baltics after this.

 

[Amazer]

Dutch Jews were supposedly deported to Sobibor. I was trying to console Blue Space Oddity, who seem distraught by this, by pointing out there were numerous cases of Dutch Jews being sighted in the Baltics after this.

Sightings do not equal facts, you know. Or do you believe the stories where Elvis or Bigfoot or Nessie were sighted too?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Some trains ended up in Auschwitz, some ended up in the Baltics, some in Warsaw, some went to the Ukraine, some went via Malkinia, some via Sobibor, some vis Izbica.

Please nominate the trains containing clothing taken by the SS from Treblinka that ended up in the Baltics or Izbica and to which organisation they were being delivered to outside of Pohl's command area. (you have a problem with the rail gauge changes you seem to have forgotten)

It is possible that Germans looted overcoats and other clothes at certain places. Also since luggage was restricted, the ghetto was available for plundering after deportation in Poland, where over half the transports originated from

The trains with the clothing came from Treblinka. Please explain and show me a document that shows how the luggage was not restricted when the victims set off for Treblinka but magically they offloaded their clothing at Treblinka. Why does Pohl, who controlled this say they were executed?

The SS didn't administer Russian prisoners of War. Try harder next time.

It was an example how looting clothing does not mean gassing, you nong

Please show me where I mention the word "gassing"? You seem unaware that the concentration camps and POWs were run by two different organisations.

Statements by POWs being broken for show trial purposes have limited evidentiary value in my opinion.

Oswald Pohl was a Obergruppen-fuhrer in the SS who controlled the materials taken from concentration camp victims in Operation Reinhardt. Are you saying his confession to his activities is a lie? What do you base this fantasy on? Show me a link. Pohl was hanged in 1951 after many appeals but never recanted his confession.

I also quoted Judge Łukaszkiewicz examination of Treblinka "one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains" which you also pretended not to read.

No, I simply ignored it, it as no one claims that anything like 800 000 bodies were found, no one claims 1000 bodies were found. There were legitimate camps in the area.

So you do accept there are ashes and dead body bits at Treblinka where Łukaszkiewicz performed his examination? Is this correct? Have you read the size of the area that Łukaszkiewicz investigated? What do you think was this, so called by you, "legitimate" camp's purpose. ( Don't try sand mining because the little children are not that great operating heavy machinery)

Because I take no pleasure in pointing out your ignorance and dishonesty.

I see. You added the words "skeletons" to your Dr Spanner quote (hoping I didn't speak German) and ran away when I pointed out your fabrication of evidence. Please list my ignorance and dishonesty errors.

I don't see what dutch jews have got to do with Treblinka. Please explain the connection.

It is useful only in pointing out your ignorance and dishonesty. Dutch Jews were supposedly deported to Sobibor.

Sobibor is not in the Baltic states. Please list all the evidence you have that Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor were actually in the Baltics. Evidence please. You didn't just make this up did you?

 

[little grey rabbit]

sigh: repost for the benefit of Mr Ellard with apologies to everyone else

Such a situation is the case with Dutch Jews in Lithuania. The following was spotted in Hermann Kruk’s diary from Wilna, page 518-519.

April 16, 1943 Today a rumor is circulating that there are about 19,000 Dutch Jews in Vievis….[later that same day] ….”Just now I succeeded in getting a Jewish sign from a Dutch Jew and a copy of the order of the Reichskommissar for the Occupied Netherlands about Jewish property.

Highly suggestive that Dutch Jews had just arrived in the area of Lithuania, but can we be certain Kruk was not just hearing rumours without substance?

Then we read in Rich Cohen’s oral history “The Avengers” about the reunion of Abba Kovner with a friend from Wilna called Lebke Distel. Page 196

From Wilna, Lebke had been sent from prison camp to prison camp, a death march, always one step ahead of the Red Army. In Kortla Java, he worked on the roads in the swampy country. At night he could hear shelling and rifle shots. He was then sent down the river Narva River to Suski, where he built the German railroad. The temperature dropped to twenty five degrees below zero; prisoners carried the dead to be counted and burned. The snow was to his waist in Koromej, where he was locked up with Jews from Holland and Kovno. He then marched west to a half-remembered foundry of red flames and smoke chimneys. He worked in the metal shop. One day a door opened and in walked his borther, which Lebke had last seen in Vilna. Their mother had been sent to Auschwitz or Ponar, her good hiding place given away by a Jewish policeman. Lebke’s feet were bloody in Tallinn, the snow-covered capital of Estonia

We have here another sighting of Dutch Jews tucked away in a somewhat mythologising book about Jewish resistence and Abba Kovner. I have yet to identify Koromej, but other place names seem near Estonia or Northern Russia.

However, there is no destination for transports ofDutch Jews from Westerbork except Auschwitz and Sobibor. If Dutch Jews did indeed end up as slave labour in Northern Russia they must have gone through one of those 2 transit camps. And if April 16 1943 is a sighting to be relied upon, then between 2 March and 9 April there had been 6 transports of Dutch Jews to Sobibor with around 7500 people. Presumably these are the only candidates to be winding up near Wilna in April 19 1943. These are the same Jews that a 90 year old Ukrainian is facing court in München accused of assisting their murder in Sobibor.

Breach or rules 0 and 12 removed. Remain civil and avoid making personal attacks.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[Skeptic]

Sightings do not equal facts, you know. Or do you believe the stories where Elvis or Bigfoot or Nessie were sighted too?

Only those stories in which people claimed they saw Elvis, Bigfoot and Nessie molested by evil Jews.

 

[Moss]

The lack of documentation regarding the alleged further transports from the extermination camps is interesting. I genuinely expect the assertion "The Jews/Soviets hid it!" without backup.
And why exactly did none of the SS members that were tried after the war try to prove that those Jews ended up alive further east? They should have known and told so.
Having a look at map when it comes to Sobibor and the Baltic might actually tell you something. But I guess crossing war zones and territory occupied by people that at least tried to deport you and work you to death is easy for big groups of magical stealth jews.

 

[little grey rabbit]

The lack of documentation regarding the alleged further transports from the extermination camps is interesting. I genuinely expect the assertion "The Jews/Soviets hid it!" without backup.

What sort of back-up would you expect in such a situation?
We have impossible/implausible murder weapons, homicidal bakeries, and a complete lack of any credible physical evidence. Its a fairly suspicious pattern. a pattern of deceit.

And why exactly did none of the SS members that were tried after the war try to prove that those Jews ended up alive further east? They should have known and told so.

That would take a book, but I think Faurisson had it write when he made comparison with the witch craft trials when defendants would say "Oh yes the Devil exists, I saw him, but he was on the other hill from me, I only saw him from a distance"

Having a look at map when it comes to Sobibor and the Baltic might actually tell you something.

OK, you had better tell me what you are try to say, cause I don't get it

But I guess crossing war zones and territory occupied by people that at least tried to deport you and work you to death is easy for big groups of magical stealth jews.

It is easier to hide 6 million corpses that can walk than 6 million that can't.

 

[Amazer]

It is easier to hide 6 million corpses that can walk than 6 million that can't.

Darn NWO,

That is what they have been keeping from us all this time. There are 6 million zombies wandering around, somewhere, since the 40s. Will they stop at nothing?

 

[9/11-investigator]

My mom hasn't yet sent me the text of the article, but there's a rough preview online.

That article on page 8 is NOT the article I was refering to. It was a small article on the frontpage of a katern.

Oh my gosh, what have I done. Now I must go to the library to find a copy of the newspaper.

 

[ddt]

That article on page 8 is NOT the article I was refering to. It was a small article on the frontpage of a katern.

So go that link I gave you and leaf through the newspaper and tell us which page it is. Or are you evading the issue?

ETA:
How could it contradict the story on page 8 which recounts Chawwa Wijnberg's own story?

And which "katern" would that be? "Reizen" (Travels)? "Wetenschap" (Science)? Or maybe "Boeken" (Books) - it has a snippet about a novel written by Jacques Presser, the historian, during the war, that has now surfaced?

 

[VonKleist]

That article on page 8 is NOT the article I was refering to. It was a small article on the frontpage of a katern.

Oh my gosh, what have I done. Now I must go to the library to find a copy of the newspaper.

I believe you are being economical with the truth.
I believe you are being economical with the truth.
Your undergarments are in danger of combustion.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Please list all the evidence you have that Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor were actually in the Baltics. Evidence please.

I repost for the benefit of Mr Ellard with apologies to everyone else Do actually read what people post here? You seem quite genuinely to be suffering from some mental condition that creates it very difficult to have an intelligent conversation. Strange leaps of illogic and short term memory loss appear among the symptoms.

Not only did I read this but as I said ...."You have a rail gauge problem" in rebuttal, that you have ignored (as per usual).

That is why I asked for specific evidence. You came back with a repeat of .... a rumor is circulating that there are about 19,000 Dutch Jews in Vievis. and Highly suggestive that Dutch Jews had just arrived in the area of Lithuania You also failed to pick up on "always one step ahead of the Red Army". which dates the later entry at after the collapse of Army Group Centre in 1944.


Vieves has a population of 5,000 of which 77% today consider themselves Poles as it is on the Polish border. You may enjoy this article on the jewish community in Vievis...
http://www.jewishgen.org/litvak/HTML/OnlineJournals/vieviscem.htm
"There is only one 20th Century jewish grave" and "but as there were never more than a couple of hundred Jewish families living there"
So can you explain why there are no dutch jewish graves in Veives from these 19,000 Dutch jews "transported" to Veives? Where did they go? How did they get there?

My turn...You have failed to answer the following questions I have asked..

1) Regarding Treblinka...So you do accept there are ashes and dead body bits at Treblinka where Łukaszkiewicz performed his examination? Is this correct?

2) Do you acknowlege that you added the word "skeleton" to fabricate a quote by Spanner that you translated from German?

3) Can you explain why was Obergruppen-fuhrer Oswald Pohl never recanted his confession concerning clothing taken from executed concentration camp victims?

 

[little grey rabbit]

Not only did I read this but as I said ...."You have a rail gauge problem" in rebuttal, that you have ignored (as per usual).

only out of politeness and a little bewilderment. The rail gauge issue is usually raised by deniers in regard to the siting of AR camps. As it happens all main lines were on standard gauge by 9142 and 1943.

Vieves has a population of 5,000 of which 77% today consider themselves Poles as it is on the Polish border. You may enjoy this article on the jewish community in Vievis...
http://www.jewishgen.org/litvak/HTML/OnlineJournals/vieviscem.htm
"There is only one 20th Century jewish grave" and "but as there were never more than a couple of hundred Jewish families living there"
So can you explain why there are no dutch jewish graves in Veives from these 19,000 Dutch jews "transported" to Veives? Where did they go? How did they get there?

We have no reason to believe Veives was anything more than a transit point. The point is that Dutch Jews supposedly never got beyond Sobibor and Auschwitz.

My turn...You have failed to answer the following questions I have asked..

1) Regarding Treblinka...So you do accept there are ashes and dead body bits at Treblinka where Łukaszkiewicz performed his examination? Is this correct?

Ashes, no I don't accept that. Bodies possibly, but not to any great number.

2) Do you acknowlege that you added the word "skeleton" to fabricate a quote by Spanner that you translated from German?

I didnt fabricate any quotes. The use of square brackets is the academically accepted practice to provide additional details such as context that might need to be explained to the reader. Anyone with the slightest academic exposure whatsoever, knows that text between [] was not in the original source.
So no fabrication in the slightest. I accept your apology.

3) Can you explain why was Obergruppen-fuhrer Oswald Pohl never recanted his confession concerning clothing taken from executed concentration camp victims?

I assume because he was hung by the next until he was dead. It does tend to put a bit of damper on plans to publish a tell-all memoir

 

[Matthew Ellard]

only out of politeness and a little bewilderment. The rail gauge issue is usually raised by deniers in regard to the siting of AR camps. As it happens all main lines were on standard gauge by 9142 and 1943.

So what was the major railway line going to Veives? I forgot to link you to the page on the holocaust history of Veivis...(Silly me)
http://www.jewishgen.org/Litvak/HTML/OnlineJournals/genocide_of_the_jews.htm

All important events which had taken place in the ghettos, such as births, admission of new inmates, deaths, escapes, etc., had to be mentioned...... In May 1942, there were 700 Jews in the camp. .....227 Prisoners from the Vilnius and Kaunas ghettos worked there.
Gosh ! Not 19,000 from Sobibor! Where are they?

A 45 kilometre narrow-gauge railway line from Vievis to Paneriai had been built
Lucky you stated that all lines were standard gauge then. Bummer the narrow gauge line goes from Veives to Paneriai concentration camp for Lithuanians

We have no reason to believe Veives was anything more than a transit point. The point is that Dutch Jews supposedly never got beyond Sobibor and Auschwitz.

A transit camp that uses "narrow gauge" how interesting. And where did these 19,000 people go from Veives on the narrow gauge rail that leads to Paneriai concentration camp? Who is "We"?

Ashes, no I don't accept that. Bodies possibly, but not to any great number.

So you accept there are bodies at Treblinka but no ashes. Why do you think there are bodies at Treblinka if it was only a transit camp?

I didnt fabricate any quotes. The use of square brackets is the academically accepted practice to provide additional details such as context that might need to be explained to the reader.
Anyone with the slightest academic exposure whatsoever, knows that text between [] was not in the original source.

I'm a lawyer and have a rough idea. You made up the context "Skeletons in the tub" although they were never put in the ADJR soap boiler and Spanner never said they were. You made that up to try trick readers...naughty naughty...no holocaust denier prize for you!

I assume because he was hung by the next until he was dead. It does tend to put a bit of damper on plans to publish a tell-all memoir

Ohhh so you haven't read his appeal about taking orders. Funny about that.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I can assure you that
a. Vievis was connected by the Germans to the standard gauge line by 1943, regardless out many branch lines they had going to local destinations.
b. Even if it wasnt, Jews are unable to get off one train and embark on another.

In May 1942, there were 700 Jews in the camp. .....227 Prisoners from the Vilnius and Kaunas ghettos worked there.
Gosh ! Not 19,000 from Sobibor! Where are they?

Still in Holland, one presumes.

Incidentally, Mr Ellard, you might be interested in Rich Cohen's account of one female partisan from Wilna going on a raid in July 1942
page 61-63 The Avengers

Vitka was to blow up a German train as it made its way east, carrying soldiers and supplies to the Russian front. For two weeks, she had left the ghetto each afternoon and spent the night wandering alone along the train tracks, which passed through the forest seven miles south of Vilna. She was scouting for a place to blow up the train - somewhere far from the ghetto and far from the forest camps where the Jews were used as slave labor. The Nazis met each rebellious act with collective punishment, killing a hundred Jews for one dead German. The underground leaders did not want to give the Germans reason to blame the explosion on Jews. But everywhere Vitka went, she found Jews - draining swamps, breaking rocks, building roads.

One can certainly see how annoying it must have been. The stubborn refusal of the Germans to kill Jews.

 

[TSR]

When deniers came along in 70s and 80s the retrieved these documents from the court records to use as a wedge. This left the Elites with a problem...

.
No, the one with the problem is you, for having made the above claim and being completely unable to demonstrate that you weren't just making this up.

Which *specific* deniers?
Which *specific* documents?
.