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Why I Could Conceivably Become a Theist

People - including deities - won't learn to be different unless you tell them they're wrong,

Sure, but in this case it's like playing prisoner's dilemma with every person in the world. It's just not a very good bet others won't serve Him anyway, so it'd be silly to think my choice would matter one way or the other. Thus, I would make the selfish choice that at least granted me eternal happiness.
 
If there were a 'god', I would oppose the bastard and gladly go down in flames. Evil and injustice should be fought wherever they are encountered.

Some of the arguments to just go along with it and try to profit as a result smacks of the reasoning of the enablers of despots throughout history.
 
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Sure, but a human despot can be assasinated or replaced with political maneuvers. I can't think of a method to go against a god, and I don't believe in fighting a battle I have no chance of winning just to fuel my pride.
 
If you are, or get, familiar with the prophetic scenarios,
you will probably have some cause and opportunities for reflection and reconsideration,
and maybe soon.

Perhaps.

However, my suspicion is that I am even more familiar with prophetic scenarios than you are, and I doubt I will be changing my bets in the near future. However, that is just speculation. I'll retain an open mind.
 
However, my suspicion is that I am even more familiar with prophetic scenarios than you are, and I doubt I will be changing my bets in the near future. However, that is just speculation. I'll retain an open mind.
And the basis for your suspicion is?
 
If I see some long haired dude appearing in the clouds, with a whole lot of winged friends, one of whom blows a big trumpet blast as they start descending Earthward, I think I would decide to instantly repent of all my sins, chief amonst which, at that point, would be unbelief and blasphemy.
Could you, in genuine sincerity, really feel that unbelief was a sin?
 
And the basis for your suspicion is?

From your comment, it seemed that you might believe that prophecy predicts that the second coming of the Lord of Hosts was in fact, nigh, and that I might actually hear Gabriel's trumpet very soon, thus having cause to question my current beliefs.

I'm familiar with that idea, not just in its current form, but as it has existed for many years.

My favorite experience with prophecy was while doing some research in the library at the University of Illinois. It's a huge library, one of the biggest in the country, with lots of old and new books. You can find amazing things wandering the stacks. One day, I can't remember what I was looking for, but I turned around and found that behind me was the section of Biblical prophecy. There was "The Late Great Planet Earth" that I had once read and taken seriously before my conversion to atheism (which at that time was only a year or so in my past, though now it is many years in the past.) However, surrounding that book were many books with the same theme, but some were over 100 years old. It was fascinating to see such a collection, all equally convinced that in their lifetimes, the End of Days would be seen unfolding.

One was certain that the American Civil War, during which the book was written, was the beginning of the end. In 1910, a book was written that successfully predicted a huge war in Europe, but unsuccessfully predicted that it would result in the beginning of the Great Tribulation. An awful lot of books written in the late 19th century through the end of World War I had Turkey playing the role of Gog (or was it Magog?) After World War I, the League of Nations stepped into its proper place as the Seven Headed Dragon, but by the time of my childhood in the '70s that role was taken by the European Economic Community.

666 took on various significant meanings. My favorite was Ronald Wilson Reagan, with six letters in each of his names.

So, the end of the world has a great deal of history behind it. It is coming soon, and has been for some time.
 
From your comment, it seemed that you might believe that prophecy predicts that the second coming of the Lord of Hosts was in fact, nigh, and that I might actually hear Gabriel's trumpet very soon, thus having cause to question my current beliefs.

I'm familiar with that idea, not just in its current form, but as it has existed for many years.

My favorite experience with prophecy was while doing some research in the library at the University of Illinois. It's a huge library, one of the biggest in the country, with lots of old and new books. You can find amazing things wandering the stacks. One day, I can't remember what I was looking for, but I turned around and found that behind me was the section of Biblical prophecy. There was "The Late Great Planet Earth" that I had once read and taken seriously before my conversion to atheism (which at that time was only a year or so in my past, though now it is many years in the past.) However, surrounding that book were many books with the same theme, but some were over 100 years old. It was fascinating to see such a collection, all equally convinced that in their lifetimes, the End of Days would be seen unfolding.

One was certain that the American Civil War, during which the book was written, was the beginning of the end. In 1910, a book was written that successfully predicted a huge war in Europe, but unsuccessfully predicted that it would result in the beginning of the Great Tribulation. An awful lot of books written in the late 19th century through the end of World War I had Turkey playing the role of Gog (or was it Magog?) After World War I, the League of Nations stepped into its proper place as the Seven Headed Dragon, but by the time of my childhood in the '70s that role was taken by the European Economic Community.

666 took on various significant meanings. My favorite was Ronald Wilson Reagan, with six letters in each of his names.

So, the end of the world has a great deal of history behind it. It is coming soon, and has been for some time.
Well then, as you know, there are more than a few verses and phrases which describe circumstances and events that were just not physically or technologically possible during previous generations. So they were clearly wrong and there was nothing preventing them from recognizing that at the time, but they didn't, for a variety of reasons. That has no bearing on the feasibility of those things, which you know, taking place and being fulfilled in our world today.

If there is one thing I have learned, it is that no matter what I know, what I think, what I think I know, what I hope, what I want and what I don't want, that in the end, I do not know with any absolute certainty what will or will not happen when.

So I watch, and try to continue learning, and whatever happens happens. I'm good with that.

But yes, I do believe that it may be possible that we are that terminal generation that sees the Script enacted and that we were born for a time such as this.
 
Well then, as you know, there are more than a few verses and phrases which describe circumstances and events that were just not physically or technologically possible during previous generations.

Curiously, I missed that part. A detailed discussion of that would be for another thread, but let me relate it to this thread's topic.

There are lots of extremely vague predictions which could be interepreted this way or that. I don't think many of us would be convinced by any sort of prophecy that had to be explained in too much detail. If a major world leader demanded that we all get tattoos of "666" on our foreheads, and no one was allowed to purchase goods unless he had a tattoo, we would probably take notice. However, if VISA started using 18 digit account numbers arranged in three groups of six, we probably wouldn't really think the prophecy had been fulfilled.

Likewise, if a humanoid, winged, figure, blowing a real, honest to goodness, trumpet flew overhead, and the trumpet blast that sounded very trumpet-like was heard all over the world, I would probably take notice and question my non-belief. However, if a simultaneous worldwide test of the next generation of emergency broadcast sytem were conducted, I wouldn't say that was close enough to the biblical description to say that the prophecy was fulfilled, although certain scholars of Bible prophecy have said that Gabriel's trumpet would be "blown" in just such a manner, and that the availability of worldwide broadcasting was a fulfillment of prophecy. No, I'm just not seeing it. It's not enough to make me give up my atheism.

Heck, I would even seriously question my beliefs if a million Americans suddenly disappeared without a trace, especially if fundamentalist Christians were disproportionately represented among the missing, but somehow, I don't expect that to happen. However, if it did, I wouldn't expect it to happen as depicted in pop Christian culture, in which a million or more people vanish without a trace, including from moving vehicles, leaving behind piles of clothes, but those remaining behind made up some weird explanation and didn't notice the similarity to the predictions of the prophetic interpretations.

(Curiously, in pop culture depictions, piles of clothes are sometimes left behind after the rapture. Examination of the video representations of the aftereffects of the rapture might lead one to conclude that fundamentalist Christian women rarely if ever wear underwear. I've never seen a pair of panties in the clothing piles. Do fundie mothers warn their daughters to always wear clean underwear, because you never know if someone might see them if they are left behind after the rapture?)

No, I think in the face of such overwhelming evidence, even the most hardened atheists would actually change their views, if not to Christianity, at least away from our hard core materialist philosophies, and quite a few, recognizing not only the supernatural element of the events, but its similarity to Christian prophecy, would conclude that Christians were right and they ought to get on board the train while they still had the chance. It's a purely evidence based position, as opposed to the thread to which the OP referred, which was a statement by someone who said he couldn't accept atheism because he just didn't like some aspect of it. I think most of us don't like some aspect of Christianity, but given evidence of its correctness, might reconsider.
 
No, I think in the face of such overwhelming evidence, even the most hardened atheists would actually change their views, if not to Christianity, at least away from our hard core materialist philosophies, and quite a few, recognizing not only the supernatural element of the events, but its similarity to Christian prophecy, would conclude that Christians were right and they ought to get on board the train while they still had the chance. It's a purely evidence based position, as opposed to the thread to which the OP referred, which was a statement by someone who said he couldn't accept atheism because he just didn't like some aspect of it. I think most of us don't like some aspect of Christianity, but given evidence of its correctness, might reconsider.


Nonsense.
 
That has no bearing on the feasibility of those things, which you know, taking place and being fulfilled in our world today.

But that's what they always say. "Oh, right, well clearly those people were completely wrong - not like us!" They've been saying that forever.

Nonsense.

I believe that you would never change your position, and I wouldn't dream of trying to suggest that you should. I would, however, like to take a moment picturing a world where YOU are the one that's thought of as the crazy one who ignores blatant physical evidence because they don't match up with your beliefs. That's trippy.

For myself, the appearance of what looks like a god wouldn't magically remove my doubt or my questions. I would probably continue to believe that it was all a trick, an illusion, whatever. Beyond that it would depend on the actions of this 'god'. If it went around fixing things and I agreed with whatever philosophy it was spouting, I might very well fall in line even though I would continue to suspect it was just a hallucination.
 
If a major world leader demanded that we all get tattoos of "666" on our foreheads, and no one was allowed to purchase goods unless he had a tattoo, we would probably take notice.
I might take notice of a major world leader demanding I get 666 tattooed on my forehead, but I would not take it as evidence of the truth of Christianity.

It would be odd if this world leader had never heard of Revelations or the number of the beast.
 
I believe that you would never change your position, and I wouldn't dream of trying to suggest that you should. I would, however, like to take a moment picturing a world where YOU are the one that's thought of as the crazy one who ignores blatant physical evidence because they don't match up with your beliefs. That's trippy.

For myself, the appearance of what looks like a god wouldn't magically remove my doubt or my questions. I would probably continue to believe that it was all a trick, an illusion, whatever. Beyond that it would depend on the actions of this 'god'. If it went around fixing things and I agreed with whatever philosophy it was spouting, I might very well fall in line even though I would continue to suspect it was just a hallucination.
If a giant invincible man with a spear appeared in the sky and claimed to be Odin, I would accept him as Odin and get on with sacrifices. He would be functionally equivalent to Odin vikings used to worship. Problem with Judeo-Christian god is that he is contradictory. Nothing can be "functionally equivalent" to Yahweh because different functions mutually exclude each other.

Generally, pagan gods (not just Odin) tended to be much more consistent. They did not claim to be all-loving while at the same time condem people to eternal torture for doubting them. It was either one or the other.
 
Generally, pagan gods (not just Odin) tended to be much more consistent. They did not claim to be all-loving while at the same time condem people to eternal torture for doubting them. It was either one or the other.

I once heard the Norse gods compared to superheroes, and really liked it. They can be tricked, hurt, or killed. They have exciting adventures. They've got super-powers. Some are good, some are bad, and they all have flaws. That's true of others to some extent too but the Norse guys really seem to be the most fun.
 
Various theists here have indicate that evidence, logic, morals and so forth are irrelevant when assessing a faith, because cosmic deities are unconcerned with such foibles. They speak of opening our eyes..

Now, I don't see why I should spend any time searching for signs from any specific deity, that would seem unfair. If they are in fact unconcerned with evidence, logic and morals, then I see no way to tell where to start the search. Thus, I will continue to hold the default position of atheism.

If, however, a deity delivers an unmistakable demonstration of his/her/its existence, then I would become a theist. I don't know what this could be, as I can't imagine any demonstartion that couldn't be put down to a hallucination. I assume that this wouldn't be a problem to any actual deity that exists.

I would not, however, support that deity until I could be assured of its good intentions.
If a Diety existed and put in a personal appearance from time to time I'd be forced to believe in a God or Gods but if the Diety in question was the Diety caled jehovah I'd have to skip the worship part. I might kill a cow or sheep and burn it up for him but it wouldn't be because I worshipped him it would be to keeep him off my back.
 

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