9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Toke]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co2#Toxicity

Sure, a well run diesel engine produce mostly CO2, is toxic by itself.
Getting incomplete combustion with black smoke and higher level of CO is no problem whatsoever. It can be seen happening automatically on older engines with worn injection nozzles and therefore poor atomisation of the fuel.

Restricting the airflow for to an engine is not high technology, you could use a raincoat to partially cover the air filter. I am sure a skilled mechanic could come up with more ideas for getting bad performance out of an old engine.

 

[little grey rabbit]

The only time you feign indifference regarding the whereabouts of "missing" Jews is when someone asks you directly about your alternatives for the whereabouts of murdered Jews.

The rest of the time you're devising hare-brained schemes to locate them (How are the Dutch phonebook searches coming along?) while starting threads on various fora proclaiming (falsely) to have found them (Kulischer says, what? Oh, that excerpt was about non-Jewish slave laborers, really.) or providing other Holocaust deniers with hints about the identity of murdered letter writers (What should she have been writing, given the circumstances?).
The remainder of your time online appears to be devoted to hare-splitting irrelevancies - whatever the attention whoring, trolling objective may be at any given time or warren.

That's ok though because you must have noticed that, until you do find "missing" Jews where they aren't supposed to be, very few people are willing to accept what you (Holocaust denying conspiracy loons) allege.

I bet it is the most common question you encounter whenever you reveal your schemes and ideas to a virgin audience.
"So..., if what you say is true, where are all those Jews?"

Here's a variation; "Have you found them yet?" And if you have, how did Ulrich Busch react to your revelations? Was he more impressed than when you suggested he should get facsimiles of the original transport lists? When will you tell;


In Memoriam

Oh dear, someone was feeling grumpy this morning. Look 12 million Germans were kicked out of Eastern Europe and, guess what, I can't find train records for them. I presume that the vast majority of these Germans and their descendants live in Germany, but they don't go around wearing a badge so unless they admit to it, its pretty hard for me to tell.

I repeat, if Jews were really concerned about losing 6 million dead, they would not be happy about fantasy stories regarding bakeries and demand to know the truth. They don't.

"Have you found them yet?" And if you have, how did Ulrich Busch react to your revelations? Was he more impressed than when you suggested he should get facsimiles of the original transport lists?

Poor jnovitz, forever tagged with the smear of being the evil rabbit. In Mr Novitz's defense, all he said was there was a discrepancy between what the Dutch Jew witness stated on the witness stand and what was contained in the database. Which was true, Mr Novitz then said the most likely explanation was a data entry error, which is also true. He suggested it should be checked rather than assumed to be a data entry error, which seems quite reasonable.

So I don't know why you got your knickers in a twist over it.

I think its appalling that you should take so much delight that a 90 year old man who never set in foot in Sobibor is being treated in such a vindictive way because 70 years ago he decided to sign up to a German militia rather than starve to death in a POW camp.

Mr Busch seems to be doing very well in his cross-examination of the very weak witnesses the prosecution put forward (retired detectives etc). I hope that he has also insisted on full disclosure on the all the materials that the Federal Forensics lab in Weisbaden produced when they determined that Demjanjuk's ID card was a forgery and a forgery that doesn't even list the his two main postings, Majdanek and Flosssenburg.

 

[little grey rabbit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co2#Toxicity

I have gone on my knees and begged Hoaxsters to claim Jews were killed by oxygen deprivation. They seem strangely reluctant to do so

Getting incomplete combustion with black smoke and higher level of CO is no problem whatsoever. It can be seen happening automatically on older engines with worn injection nozzles and therefore poor atomisation of the fuel.

Poor atomisation won't be incomplete combustion in the sense that high levels of carbon monoxide produced. Black smoke should not contain high CO, if sufficient oxygen is present.. The only person who made a serious experiment in getting toxic exhaust and actually killing rabbits, did it by restricting the air inlet and resulted in very acrid white smoke. It wasnt very efficient in killing rabbits in terms of time either, nor was it reliable it terms of its output, sometimes it would take 5 hours, sometimes just over 1 hour

Restricting the airflow for to an engine is not high technology, you could use a raincoat to partially cover the air filter. I am sure a skilled mechanic could come up with more ideas for getting bad performance out of an old engine.

Doubtless, you could devise a scheme to kill the Jews of Europe by bashing them to death with a frozen salmon. The question is, if you were sitting down to design a plan to commit efficient mass murder, would you say...
"I know what, lets get a diesel engine, we could construct a device to put a load on it and manufacture a larger fuel injection pump....they should do the trick"

I doubt it.

Incidentally, this is how the process is described in 1944 in the magazine The 19th Century and After

Thus did the Germans try to deceive them up to the bitter end.
But after they have been stripped by the Jewish 'militia; the farce ends, and they are driven along a pathway about 200 meters under the whips of SS guards towards a strange-looking one storied brick barrack which still has an unfinished appearance. They are greeted at the door by Sauer, the Chief, who drives them with a cat of nine tails into a corridor 9 feet wide with five chambers on either side about 6 feet high. Into one of these cells, the men, women and children are driven, the moistened terra cotta floor of which is so slippery that many fall, unable to rise again. More bodies fall on top of them, some try to stand on each other, until a great human mass is piled up. Children are thrown on the heap of prostrate maen and women who are already dying of suffocation. The doors are then closed and hermetically sealed and the chamber is filled with steam forced in through apertures in the pipes connected with the boiler house.

Good golly, if I didnt know better I would have thought in sounded like a shower block!

 

[9/11-investigator]

From my readings during the major deportation years 1942-43 There was the following destinations:
A portion was taken off to work in SS camps, another portions hired out by the SS to third parties such as Ostbahn, mines, swamp drainging, forestry, road works and armaments industry. Another portion was put into labour battalions and worked on fortifications at the front line, another portion was taken off to work on state and collective farms in the occupied east - eastern Ukraine seems to have be a destination that has a couple of hints. Another portion were in old persons and juvenile camps like Thereseinstadt and less well known places Akhmichetka, Bershed, Balta, Komargorod, Kishniev. There was certainly a Jewish settlement area in Transistria and possibly one in Eastern Ukraine. I am also trying to find out in the mines in the Donesk region was a work destination - but as you can imagine its slow work and sources are difficult to scout out.

One thing for sure, no Jew was gassed to death beneath a bakery and then disappeared without a trace.

That matches with the experience of my (christian Dutch) father who was rounded up by the Germans for working in Germany and Silesia: he was constantly on the move: working on fields, digging holes against tanks, helping cleaning up the mess in Dresden, etc., etc. Within the context of slave labour the treatment was 'correct': don't cause us any trouble we will not cause you any trouble. That was the unoutspoken message. The Germans could not afford wasting valuable sources of labour while almost every German man was fighting in a 2-front war, hopelessly outnumbered.

 

[9/11-investigator]

BINGO!

A few days ago I reported about a big news item her in Holland about Selma Wijnberg, a woman who arrcording to orthodoxy was the only Dutch survivor of Sobibor. This week she came to Holland from the US to be decorated by the government. Here is her story:

http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=10835201

Than there was a surprise... there turned out to be family after all. Lots of them. Most of them living in Canada and the US. I read the story in yesterday (saturday) in one of the largest left wing newspapers de Volkskrant (in a restaurant, I don't buy leftwing newspapers you see). The story is not online but here is something similar from a provincial (Zeeland) broadcaster:

http://www.omroepzeeland.nl/20100415_ZNE_chawwa

The story in de volkskrant reports about extensive research this niece Chawwa Wijnberg has conducted regarding her own family tree. She discovered that many family members were living in Canada and the US who were assumed to be dead but instead pursuing a career as holocaust survivor.

Here a twitter of this Chawwa:

http://weblogs.nos.nl/evenementen/2010/04/08/selma-de-vrouw-die-sobibor-overleefde/

Mevrouw Selma Engel Wijnberg blijkt mijn achternicht te zijn. Gisteren ontdekt en dus hevig geschrokken. Ik heb haar opgebeld in Amerika met haar gesproken en beloofd dat ik haar in Nederland ga ontmoeten. Maar het hotel waar zij geplaatst is, blijkt veel te duur voor ons, mijn vrouw en mij.(Ik ben ook een vrouw trouwens) Geen misverstanden. Ik loop heel slecht. Maandag is Selma in Westerborg. Kan je met mij aub contact opnemen?

She reports that she discovered this family tie yesterday and that she is married to a woman.

What did revisionist writer Juergen Graf say again in his book about Hilberg?

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/Giant/ p-117 and beyond:

In 1982, Hilberg responded to the Revisionists who had reproached
him with faulty methodology with the following argument:219
“The critics cannot explain one very simple fact: What became of the
people who were deported? The deportations were not kept secret. They
were announced. Many millions of people were shipped to very specific
places. Where are these people? They are certainly not hiding in China!”
Indeed, where are these people? Hilberg is right that they are not hiding
in China. Where they ended up is illustrated by an article on 24th
November 1978 in the State Times (Baton Rouge, Louisiana, p. 8a):

"The Steinbergs once flourished in a small Jewish village in Poland.
That was before Hitler’s death camps. Now more than 200 far-flung survivors
and descendants are gathered here to share a special four-day celebration
that began, appropriately, on Thanksgiving day. Relatives came
Thursday from Canada, France, England, Argentina, Columbia, Israel and
at least 13 cities across the United States. ‘It’s fabulous’, said Iris Krasnow
of Chicago. ‘There are five generations here—from 3 months old to 85. People
are crying and having a wonderful time. It’s almost like a World War II
refugee reunion’."

These are concrete examples of Hilberg’s ‘gassing victims’!

 

[9/11-investigator]

During the summer months I intend to read through the entire thread (1300+ pdf pages) to summarize the arguments that have been made so far.

One prominent argument my opponents repeatedly made was about the Goebbels diary. This link discusses that diary:

http://www.codoh.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5697&sid=b16ba6e9bd37a1d0bc70f4d9f71e5f13&start=90

 

[9/11-investigator]

In post #2592 I reported that a group of no less then 8000 Parisian Jews had unexpectedly emerged shortly after the war in the Ukraine. This was rather surprising and embarrassing for my opponents who keep insisting that macabre places like Sobibor and Treblinka were the end stations for these Jews. Here is additional material that considerable numbers of Jews turned out to be in the Ukraine after the war giving credence to the revisionist narrative that the Jews were transported to the East to be resettled rather than 'exterminated'.

Ever heard of the Maly Trostenets extermination camp?

Thought so, me neither.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maly_Trostenets_extermination_camp

According to zionist edited Wikipedia many German, Austrian en Czech Jews were transported here and killed. Originally 200-500,000 Jews were said to be killed here in 'gas vans'. This number was later somewhat revised downwards to 40-65,000. One wonders why these Jews had to be shipped so far to the east if they could have been 'sonderbehandelt' in Poland.

A logistically far more satisfying explanation of course is that these Jews were intended to be resettled here rather than exterminated.

 

[TSR]

A logistically far more satisfying explanation of course is that these Jews were intended to be resettled here rather than exterminated.

.
It's just too bad that there isn't any evidence suggesting any such resettlement took place, then, isn't it? And how far is it from Minsk and environs, where most of the victims came from?

Care to get back to Jäger, and whether you think the report is authentic or not?

Because he says that the "locals" you keep trying to exonerate your heroes with were acting under his orders when they killed all those children.

What, exactly, were those children supposed to have done to deserve being killed again?
.

 

[ddt]

BINGO!

A few days ago I reported about a big news item her in Holland about Selma Wijnberg, a woman who arrcording to orthodoxy was the only Dutch survivor of Sobibor. This week she came to Holland from the US to be decorated by the government. Here is her story:

http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=10835201

You can also give the short story. Selma Wijnberg survived Sobibor, married after the escape fellow-escaper Chaim Engel, a Pole, and after WW2 they wanted to settle in the Netherlands. NL regarded her now as a Pole and wanted to extradite her. It didn't come that far, and in 1951 they emigrated to Israel, in 1957 to the US.

Than there was a surprise... there turned out to be family after all. Lots of them. Most of them living in Canada and the US. I read the story in yesterday (saturday) in one of the largest left wing newspapers de Volkskrant (in a restaurant, I don't buy leftwing newspapers you see). The story is not online but here is something similar from a provincial (Zeeland) broadcaster:

http://www.omroepzeeland.nl/20100415_ZNE_chawwa

The story in de volkskrant reports about extensive research this niece Chawwa Wijnberg has conducted regarding her own family tree. She discovered that many family members were living in Canada and the US who were assumed to be dead but instead pursuing a career as holocaust survivor.

It's convenient to hide behind a newspaper articles that's not online, isn't it? My mom has a subscription to the Volkskrant, so I sent her an email about it.

The contents of the interview with Omroep Zeeland, the provincial radio/TV broadcaster is simple. Chawwa gives classes, and when Selma's story broke her students asked her if she was family. Her friend and business partner checked that with the national archive, and told her Selma's father and Chawwa's grandfather were brothers. The friend also traced Selma's phone number in the US, and she phoned with her. The only relatives she mentions are Chawaa's own children and Selma's children and grandchildren. Nothing extensive research, nothing of many family members "pursuing a career as holocaust survivor". That's all a pack of lies of yours.

Here a twitter of this Chawwa:

http://weblogs.nos.nl/evenementen/2010/04/08/selma-de-vrouw-die-sobibor-overleefde/

Mevrouw Selma Engel Wijnberg blijkt mijn achternicht te zijn. Gisteren ontdekt en dus hevig geschrokken. Ik heb haar opgebeld in Amerika met haar gesproken en beloofd dat ik haar in Nederland ga ontmoeten. Maar het hotel waar zij geplaatst is, blijkt veel te duur voor ons, mijn vrouw en mij.(Ik ben ook een vrouw trouwens) Geen misverstanden. Ik loop heel slecht. Maandag is Selma in Westerborg. Kan je met mij aub contact opnemen?

She reports that she discovered this family tie yesterday and that she is married to a woman.

So what? And it's nice you present sources that contradict your earlier lies. When she's discovered the family ties yesterday, how can she have done "extensive research"?

In the next reaction, she mentions some other family members being murdered in Sobibor, another one beaten to death in camp Vught. She adds, though, that her memory of these things is quite faulty.

 

[9/11-investigator]

It's convenient to hide behind a newspaper articles that's not online, isn't it?

You would consider that my fault?

My mom has a subscription to the Volkskrant, so I sent her an email about it.

Why am I not surprised?

The contents of the interview with Omroep Zeeland, the provincial radio/TV broadcaster is simple. Chawwa gives classes, and when Selma's story broke her students asked her if she was family. Her friend and business partner checked that with the national archive, and told her Selma's father and Chawwa's grandfather were brothers. The friend also traced Selma's phone number in the US, and she phoned with her. The only relatives she mentions are Chawaa's own children and Selma's children and grandchildren. Nothing extensive research, nothing of many family members "pursuing a career as holocaust survivor". That's all a pack of lies of yours.

According to the article in the Volkskrant Chawwa did research into her family tree. That does not necessary include Selma. Or maybe it did include Selma but she did not realize she was still alive. But it is always pleasant to hurl big words at your opponents, doesn't it. That avatar displaying a sensitive girly boy, is that you ddt?

So what? And it's nice you present sources that contradict your earlier lies. When she's discovered the family ties yesterday, how can she have done "extensive research"?

Why don't we wait for your mommies response, shall we?

In the next reaction, she mentions some other family members being murdered in Sobibor, another one beaten to death in camp Vught. She adds, though, that her memory of these things is quite faulty.

'quite faulty'... nice that you put doubt on the story yourself. Was she there when a family member was murdered in Sobibor or beaten to death in Vught? Of course not. Chances are they lived happily ever after in Israel or the US. That's the beauty of the story as delivered by these noble allies: you can make ANY claim about the conduct of the Germans and get away with it.

 

[9/11-investigator]

.
It's just too bad that there isn't any evidence suggesting any such resettlement took place, then, isn't it? And how far is it from Minsk and environs, where most of the victims came from?

Did you ever hear of that 'extermination camp'?

Care to get back to Jäger, and whether you think the report is authentic or not?

You will be the first to know if I'll have new insights regarding that report. Question to you: how many Jews according to you were killed by the locals (rather then the Einsatzgruppen) do you think. Have you already formed ideas as to why the locals killed the Jews? Do you think that people who install a murderous regime should be punished for their deeds (I think they should).

Because he says that the "locals" you keep trying to exonerate your heroes with were acting under his orders when they killed all those children.

Are you really trying to say that the locals were not keen at shooting their tormenters?

What, exactly, were those children supposed to have done to deserve being killed again?

He will probably keep harrasing me with this question until the end of times. TSR, who would rather not reveal his ethnic/religious identity (not difficult to guess why), does not loose a minute of sleep about all these hundred of thousands of German kids who were willingly murdered by the Anglos during their bombing campaigns. TSR is only worried about Jewish kids. Now why would that be do you think?

 

[TSR]

Did you ever hear of that 'extermination camp'?

.
Yes, unlike you I am fairly well versed in the historicity of the Holocaust.

I've answered your question, now it it is your turn: How far is the general Minsk area from Maly Trostenets? And how far from other death camps?
.

You will be the first to know if I'll have new insights regarding that report.

.
IOW, "I cannot substantively discuss my claims about partisans in the context of the Jäger report without revealing that my claims about the EG were at best ill-informed if not outright lies in support of the murder of several thousand children, so I'm going to continue to ignore the whole issue."
.

Question to you: how many Jews according to you were killed by the locals (rather then the Einsatzgruppen) do you think. Have you already formed ideas as to why the locals killed the Jews? Do you think that people who install a murderous regime should be punished for their deeds (I think they should).

.
Well, I will have to defer to Jäger, who claimed that he specifically ordered those murders. And documented their numbers.

Not "according to me." According to Jäger. Do feel free to try and refute his numbers.

I see no reason, given Jäger's reports to his superiors, to differentiate between murders by "locals" under Jäger's orders and in support of an irrational belief that children were some sort of threat because of an accident of birth and murders directly by Nazis in support of an irrational belief that children were some sort of threat because of an accident of birth
.

Are you really trying to say that the locals were not keen at shooting their tormenters?

.
In what way had those thousands of children tormented the locals?
.

He will probably keep harrasing me with this question until the end of times.

.
No, just until you either admit the murders had no rational reason for being committed, or provide documentation of such a reason.
.

TSR, who would rather not reveal his ethnic/religious identity (not difficult to guess why), does not loose a minute of sleep about all these hundred of thousands of German kids who were willingly murdered by the Anglos.

.
Were those German kids specifically rounded up and killed for no other reason than because they were German?

Do you really not see a difference?
.

TSR is only worried about Jewish kids. Now why would that be do you think?

.
Wrong: I hereby officially and unequivocally deplore the accidental deaths of any children of any nationality during the course of the war. If you have any evidence that those German children were specifically targeted, present it and I will denounce that intent.

Your turn: the Jäger report explicitly reports the specific targeting and murder of children who you have yet to show were any sort of threat to those who murdered them.

Either refute that report (don't forget to show why you might do so) or announce that you deplore those murders and those that committed them, regardless of nationality.

Then explain why those intentional murders do not rise to the level of war crimes.

Or be exposed as supporting the murder of innocent children
.

 

[ddt]

You would consider that my fault?

Why don't we wait for your mommies response, shall we?

That's not the way we're going to play it. You posited it. So you post here the relevant parts of the article. Go to another restaurant or bar if you don't want to buy it.

According to the article in the Volkskrant Chawwa did research into her family tree. That does not necessary include Selma. Or maybe it did include Selma but she did not realize she was still alive. But it is always pleasant to hurl big words at your opponents, doesn't it.

Yeah, she would have done extensive research into her family tree and missed someone so close by.

'quite faulty'... nice that you put doubt on the story yourself. Was she there when a family member was murdered in Sobibor or beaten to death in Vught? Of course not. Chances are they lived happily ever after in Israel or the US. That's the beauty of the story as delivered by these noble allies: you can make ANY claim about the conduct of the Germans and get away with it.

Oh, great way to spin that. She's just being honest that she can't remember exactly which family member was murdered where. And to put a partial rest to your doubt: Vught would issue a death certificate. Anyway, here's the page of the family and the page on her grandfather. She remembered right.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

BINGO!

A few days ago I reported about a big news item her in Holland about Selma Wijnberg, a woman who arrcording to orthodoxy was the only Dutch survivor of Sobibor. This week she came to Holland from the US to be decorated by the government. Here is her story:

Than there was a surprise... there turned out to be family after all. Lots of them. Most of them living in Canada and the US. I read the story in yesterday (saturday) in one of the largest left wing newspapers de Volkskrant (in a restaurant, I don't buy leftwing newspapers you see). The story is not online but here is something similar from a provincial (Zeeland) broadcaster:

The story in de volkskrant reports about extensive research this niece Chawwa Wijnberg has conducted regarding her own family tree. She discovered that many family members were living in Canada and the US who were assumed to be dead but instead pursuing a career as holocaust survivor.

Here a twitter of this Chawwa:

Mevrouw Selma Engel Wijnberg blijkt mijn achternicht te zijn. Gisteren ontdekt en dus hevig geschrokken. Ik heb haar opgebeld in Amerika met haar gesproken en beloofd dat ik haar in Nederland ga ontmoeten. Maar het hotel waar zij geplaatst is, blijkt veel te duur voor ons, mijn vrouw en mij.(Ik ben ook een vrouw trouwens) Geen misverstanden. Ik loop heel slecht. Maandag is Selma in Westerborg. Kan je met mij aub contact opnemen?

She reports that she discovered this family tie yesterday and that she is married to a woman.

There are 34313 names of people known to have been deported to Sobibor from Westerbork. The transport lists are publicly accessible.

Below are the names of the people who were known to have survived from that group in 1946. The list is quoted from page 8 of the report published by the Afwikkelingsbureau Concentratiekampen in 1946:

1. Mej. Cato Polak, Wagenstraat 185, Den Haag
2.Mej. Sophie Huisman, Mathenesserlaan 405. Rotterdam
3. Mej. Judith Eliazar, Pupillenstraat 65. Rotterdam
4. Mevr Berhta Jansen-Ensel, van Brakelstraat 3b, Rotterdam
5. Mej. (Celine) Selina Ensel, van Brakelstraat 3b, Rotterdam
6. Mevr. Mirjam Penha-Blitz, Jekerstraat 14, Amsterdam
7. Mej.Sophie Verduin, Kribbestraat 41, Amsterdam
8. Mej. Beppie van Praag, Breitnerstraat 77, Rotterdam
9. Mej. Deetje van Praag, Breitnerstraat 77, Rotterdam
10.Mej. Suze Polak, Breugelstraat 213, Den Haag
11. Mej. Söre Polak, Breugelstraat 213, Den Haag
12. Mevr. Jeanette de Vries-Blitz, Palestrinastraat 26, Amsterdam
13. Heer Elias Isak Alex Cohen, Tugelaweg 47 II, Amsterdam
14. Mevr Saartje Engel- Wijnberg, Nieuwe Veemarkt 23, Zwolle
15. Mej. Ursula Stern, Haagstraat 13, Utrecht
16 & 17 Zusters Sientje en Jetje Veterman, Sanatorium Hellendoorn
18. Heer Jozef Wins, Mauritskade 109, Amsterdam
19. Heer Jules Schelvis, Andreas Bonnstraat 9huis, Amsterdam

There is some information in that booklet which isn't accurate. Official research didn't stop.
Today we have information from which we can conclude that the name of Mevr. Jeanette de Vries-Blitz shouldn't be on the list quoted above.
That brings the total to 18 known survivors. No name has been added to this day.

So, who was mentioned in the Volkskrant or related articles who:
a. Is mentioned by name in the Transport Lists for Sobibor, and
b. Was alive after 1945, but
c. Isn't already on the official list of known survivors I quoted above?
Can you provide any names that fit these criteria?

 

[VonKleist]

The story in de volkskrant reports about extensive research this niece Chawwa Wijnberg has conducted regarding her own family tree. She discovered that many family members were living in Canada and the US who were assumed to be dead but instead pursuing a career as holocaust survivor.

It's convenient to hide behind a newspaper articles that's not online, isn't it? My mom has a subscription to the Volkskrant, so I sent her an email about it.

Actually, the April 17 edition of De Volksrant is online. You just have to pay $1 to download it. The relevant article is on page 8, I believe. It is possible to view all but the first two paragraphs of the article free, but I imagine I may be infringing some part of the Member's agreement by posting the text here.

Anyway, the pressdisplay site is HERE

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

There are 34313 names of people known to have been deported to Sobibor from Westerbork. The transport lists are publicly accessible.

Below are the names of the people who were known to have survived from that group in 1946. The list is quoted from page 8 of the report published by the Afwikkelingsbureau Concentratiekampen in 1946:

There is some information in that booklet which isn't accurate. Official research didn't stop.
Today we have information from which we can conclude that the name of Mevr. Jeanette de Vries-Blitz shouldn't be on the list quoted above.
That brings the total to 18 known survivors. No name has been added to this day.

So, who was mentioned in the Volkskrant or related articles who:
a. Is mentioned by name in the Transport Lists for Sobibor, and
b. Was alive after 1945, but
c. Isn't already on the official list of known survivors I quoted above?
Can you provide any names that fit these criteria?

With 15 posts I should now be able to add links to my comments. I'm replying to myself in order to add one.

Below is a link to the website created by NIOD for Sobibor related interviews, conducted by Jules Schelvis. The site has a list of names of the currently known survivors of those deported to Sobibor from the Netherlands. Although brief, the page nevertheless gives a better idea what "the orthodoxy" is regarding the camp and its survivors than the straw men 911-codohpaster has erected in this thread. As you can see, the list of names is not substantially different than the 1946 list from which I quoted names and addresses above.

Sobibor Interviews

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

According to the article in the Volkskrant Chawwa did research into her family tree. That does not necessary include Selma. Or maybe it did include Selma but she did not realize she was still alive.[...]
'quite faulty'... nice that you put doubt on the story yourself. Was she there when a family member was murdered in Sobibor or beaten to death in Vught? Of course not. Chances are they lived happily ever after in Israel or the US.[…]

Chawwa Wijnberg and her mother survived the persecutions of the 12 year Reich in hiding. Her father was shot by the nazis. As Chawwa Wijnberg puts it, he was a member of the armed resistance.

DDT already provided links for Mozes Wijnberg and his family.
Can you provide anything to substantiate your claim that they lived "happily ever after in Israel or the US?" Was there an update to the Volkskrant article to that effect perhaps?

Chawwa Wijnberg did not know that Selma Engel Wijnberg was still alive but while it was news to her it wasn't really news to a lot of other people. Her personal story of reunification, while good news, adds nothing to the number of known survivors.

Here is the page for Selma Engel Wijnberg's family at the same site to which DDT linked. Joods Monument.

USHMM for example has had pages of personal history online for quite some time which mention brief biographies of Selma Engel-Wijnberg, her parents and siblings. USHMM

Selma Engel-Wijnberg survived Sobibor. Came back to the Netherlands. Registered upon return, because like most camp survivors she had no identity papers. She also gave statements about her Sobibor experiences to the Dutch authorities. One of only 18 people to do so out of the previously mentioned 34313 who are known to have been deported.

Selma Engel's older brother, Abraham, survived in hiding. He eventually moved to Canada. See USHMM

"Braham and his wife remained in the Netherlands after the war and were able to regain ownership of the Hotel Wijnberg. In 1956 the family immigrated to Canada.."

Besides a reunion between Selma -who lives in America- and Chawwa there is only one other reference in the Volkskrant article to relatives that Chawwa wasn't aware of:

"… maar opeens was er familie, nichtjes en neefjes in Canada en Amerika, van wie ze het bestaan nooit heeft geweten."

Do you have any indication that these words don't refer to Selma and Abraham Wijnberg, 2 already know survivors, their spouses and children? In other words, the article doesn't mention that Chawwa did much research and the Volkskrant article -that can be accessed at the link helpfully provide by Garethdjb- does not mention people who had been erroneously recorded as dead.

Selma's mother and other brothers died at Auschwitz. Do you have any indication that they didn't die there? I'm sure Chawwa will be looking forward to hearing from you.

 

[ddt]

My mom hasn't yet sent me the text of the article, but there's a rough preview online. If you know Dutch and which words to expect, it's readable.

Let's recap what 9/11-investigator wrote:

The story in de volkskrant reports about extensive research this niece Chawwa Wijnberg has conducted regarding her own family tree. She discovered that many family members were living in Canada and the US who were assumed to be dead but instead pursuing a career as holocaust survivor.

Chawwa Wijnberg did not know that Selma Engel Wijnberg was still alive but while it was news to her it wasn't really news to a lot of other people. Her personal story of reunification, while good news, adds nothing to the number of known survivors.

Indeed. the Volkskrant article starts with the same story as the radio interview.

Leerlingen van haar poëzieklasje hadden haar er nog op aangesproken. "Die mevrouw Engel-Wijnberg op de televisie die kamp Sobibor heeft overleefd, is dat soms familie?" Chawwa Wijnberg (67) had kort geantwoord: "Mijn hele familie is omgekomen tijdens de oorlog." En toen was ze doorgegaan met de les.

Students of Chawwa's poetry class had asked her if she was family of Selma. She had answered curtly: "My whole family perished in the war", and continued the class.

Besides a reunion between Selma -who lives in America- and Chawwa there is only one other reference in the Volkskrant article to relatives that Chawwa wasn't aware of:

maar opeens was er familie, nichtjes en neefjes in Canada en Amerika, van wie ze het bestaan nooit heeft geweten.

Which translated says: "suddenly there was family - cousins, nieces, nephews - in Canada and America she never had known about".

In between the opening of the article and the above quote, the article tells the same story as the radio interview: that Chawwa's friend had looked into the National Archive.

Do you have any indication that these words don't refer to Selma and Abraham Wijnberg, 2 already know survivors, their spouses and children? In other words, the article doesn't mention that Chawwa did much research and the Volkskrant article -that can be accessed at the link helpfully provide by Garethdjb- does not mention people who had been erroneously recorded as dead.

The Volkskrant article has nothing of the like. There's no "extensive research" as 9/11-inv. posited. That was a lie. The family in the US and Canada is just the offspring of Selma (the article doesn't mention Abraham). They were not assumed to be dead - not by the officials, just by Chawwa, which doesn't count for the figures. And lastly, they don't have a "career as holocaust survivor".

Selma's mother and other brothers died at Auschwitz. Do you have any indication that they didn't die there? I'm sure Chawwa will be looking forward to hearing from you.

Of course he hasn't. He's been asked the very same question before. It's just a lie.

 

[little grey rabbit]

There are 34313 names of people known to have been deported to Sobibor from Westerbork. The transport lists are publicly accessible.

True they were deported to Sobibor, but then people claim to have seen this Dutch Jews further east. Now that doesnt make it any easier to find people who don't want to be found, but it does point to the hypocrisy (and lack of logic) to your claim that if you cant find a person today they must have died at Sobibor

Such a situation is the case with Dutch Jews in Lithuania. The following was spotted in Hermann Kruk’s diary from Wilna, page 518-519.

April 16, 1943 Today a rumor is circulating that there are about 19,000 Dutch Jews in Vievis….[later that same day] ….”Just now I succeeded in getting a Jewish sign from a Dutch Jew and a copy of the order of the Reichskommissar for the Occupied Netherlands about Jewish property.

Highly suggestive that Dutch Jews had just arrived in the area of Lithuania, but can we be certain Kruk was not just hearing rumours without substance?

Then we read in Rich Cohen’s oral history “The Avengers” about the reunion of Abba Kovner with a friend from Wilna called Lebke Distel. Page 196

From Wilna, Lebke had been sent from prison camp to prison camp, a death march, always one step ahead of the Red Army. In Kortla Java, he worked on the roads in the swampy country. At night he could hear shelling and rifle shots. He was then sent down the river Narva River to Suski, where he built the German railroad. The temperature dropped to twenty five degrees below zero; prisoners carried the dead to be counted and burned. The snow was to his waist in Koromej, where he was locked up with Jews from Holland and Kovno. He then marched west to a half-remembered foundry of red flames and smoke chimneys. He worked in the metal shop. One day a door opened and in walked his borther, which Lebke had last seen in Vilna. Their mother had been sent to Auschwitz or Ponar, her good hiding place given away by a Jewish policeman. Lebke’s feet were bloody in Tallinn, the snow-covered capital of Estonia

We have here another sighting of Dutch Jews tucked away in a somewhat mythologising book about Jewish resistence and Abba Kovner. I have yet to identify Koromej, but other place names seem near Estonia or Northern Russia.

However, there is no destination for transports ofDutch Jews from Westerbork except Auschwitz and Sobibor. If Dutch Jews did indeed end up as slave labour in Northern Russia they must have gone through one of those 2 transit camps. And if April 16 1943 is a sighting to be relied upon, then between 2 March and 9 April there had been 6 transports of Dutch Jews to Sobibor with around 7500 people. Presumably these are the only candidates to be winding up near Wilna in April 19 1943. These are the same Jews that a 90 year old Ukrainian is facing court in München accused of assisting their murder in Sobibor.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I can't find train records for them.

Hmmm....perhaps you can help me with these train records.
Nuremberg Document NO-1257

A train full of clothing goes from Treblinka back to Warsaw with the following clothes but no people. Why do you think these people no longer need their clothes after getting off at Treblinka?


Pohl made a report to Himmler on 6 February 1943 containing a detailed list of items seized ( Treblinka). Among them were 221 train cars' worth of appropriated clothing sent to the Office for Germanisation, useless to the dead but otherwise essential to any who would have actually been transported to the east, i.e. none.

[...]2. Office for Germanization [VoMi]
Men's clothing:
overcoats - 99,000
jackets - 57,000
vests - 27,000
pants - 62,000
drawers - 38,000
shirts - 132,000
pullovers - 9,000
scarves - 2,000
pajamas - 6,000
collars - 10,000
gloves - 2,000 pairs
socks - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 31,000 pairs

Women's clothing:
coats - 155,000 pieces
dresses - 119,000 pieces
blouses - 30,000 pieces
pullovers - 60,000 pieces
drawers - 49,000 pieces
panties - 60,000 pieces
jackets - 26,000 pieces
shirts - 30,000 pieces
chemises - 125,000 pieces
pajamas - 27,000 pieces
aprons - 36,000 pieces
brassieres - 25,000 pieces
underwear - 22,000 pieces
kerchiefs - 85,000 pieces
shoes - 111,000 pieces

Children's clothing:
overcoats - 15,000
boys' jackets - 11,000
boys' pants - 3,000
shirts - 3,000
scarves - 4,000
pullovers - 1,000
drawers - 1,000
girls' dresses - 9,000
girls' chemises - 5,000
aprons - 2,000
drawers - 5,000
stockings - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 22,000 pairs