9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Moss]

Come to think of it: It's really an amazing thing to transport 5-6 million Jews through a war zone without anyone noticing. And to feed them in countries that starved because the war brought agriculture to a halt. With them having no money or goods because the Germans robbed them and the local populace not being fans of them either...
Must have been magical stealth Jews...

 

[little grey rabbit]

I was trying to avoid a lengthy derail. It seemed like a perfectly straightforward question to me. I didn't ask 'what does the Elites mean', I asked who they were. Oh well, maybe lizards.

Fuhgeddaboutit.

Congratulations, Gareth, you may have been the first person in the history of humanity to deny the existence of elites.

I thought you were asking for a description of elites in relation to how historical narratives are constructed and consent manufactured. That would take time and space and it would sail over your head.

However, if you just need a definition of the word elite, here it is
1. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status
2. A size of type on a typewriter, equal to 12 characters per linear inch.

Choose whichever definition makes the most sense to you.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Come to think of it: It's really an amazing thing to transport 5-6 million Jews through a war zone without anyone noticing. And to feed them in countries that starved because the war brought agriculture to a halt. With them having no money or goods because the Germans robbed them and the local populace not being fans of them either...
Must have been magical stealth Jews...

Not as magical as not leaving any corpses. Anyway I don't know what you mean about there being no transport records. There are plenty:
http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/chronicles.html

 

[Moss]

Not as magical as not leaving any corpses. Anyway I don't know what you mean about there being no transport records. There are plenty:
http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/chronicles.html

Sure, they were transported to the camps, but where did they go after if they weren't killed? That's the question. They can't have vanished into thin air after all.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Sure, they were transported to the camps, but where did they go after if they weren't killed? That's the question. They can't have vanished into thin air after all.

While I do appreciate the irony of being accused of believing in a narrative that requires Jews to vanish into thin air........

From my readings during the major deportation years 1942-43
There was the following destinations:
A portion was taken off to work in SS camps, another portions hired out by the SS to third parties such as Ostbahn, mines, swamp drainging, forestry, road works and armaments industry. Another portion was put into labour battalions and worked on fortifications at the front line, another portion was taken off to work on state and collective farms in the occupied east - eastern Ukraine seems to have be a destination that has a couple of hints. Another portion were in old persons and juvenile camps like Thereseinstadt and less well known places Akhmichetka, Bershed, Balta, Komargorod, Kishniev. There was certainly a Jewish settlement area in Transistria and possibly one in Eastern Ukraine. I am also trying to find out in the mines in the Donesk region was a work destination - but as you can imagine its slow work and sources are difficult to scout out.

One thing for sure, no Jew was gassed to death beneath a bakery and then disappeared without a trace.

 

[Moss]

But it's totally plausible that huge groups of Jews that in a lot of cases wouldn't have spoken the local language were not talked or reported about? They just dispersed and were never seen again? They wouldn't have tried to find their relatives again after the war ended?

 

[little grey rabbit]

But it's totally plausible that huge groups of Jews that in a lot of cases wouldn't have spoken the local language were not talked or reported about? They just dispersed and were never seen again? They wouldn't have tried to find their relatives again after the war ended?

Frankly I haven't the foggiest. My own assumption is nothing especially bad happened to them, otherwise the Jews themselves would want to find out.

As long as they stick with "we were all gassed in the bakery" story, I feel no need to be overly concerned.

I have better things to do than trying to find people who don't want to be found. You saw what happened to the Elie Wiesel thread - a bunch of German documents back up the claim by an Auschwitz survivor that he is an imposter but it gets shunted off to the conspiracy section.

The Holocaust isn't about remembrance, its about Power

 

[Moss]

How about: Well, as you claim nothing happened to them, the best way to back that up would be to find them, even if they don't want to be found.
And just as a sidenote: why the hell would the Germans demolish a bakery? It's not a particularly useful piece of infrastructure, and it takes time, effort and valuable explosives. Strange priorities.

 

[little grey rabbit]

How about: Well, as you claim nothing happened to them, the best way to back that up would be to find them, even if they don't want to be found.
And just as a sidenote: why the hell would the Germans demolish a bakery? It's not a particularly useful piece of infrastructure, and it takes time, effort and valuable explosives. Strange priorities.

Good point, maybe it was the Soviets then.

 

[Moss]

Maybe it was the Erlkönig. Maybe it was you. Maybe it was your mother. Maybe it was tiny green men from Mars.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Maybe it was the Erlkönig. Maybe it was you. Maybe it was your mother. Maybe it was tiny green men from Mars.

The latter being most likely - they wouldn't need to waste explosives, they could do it with high-powered telekenisis. Oh, and they hate bread, well known fact. That's method and motive.

 

[VonKleist]

Congratulations, Gareth, you may have been the first person in the history of humanity to deny the existence of elites.

I thought you were asking for a description of elites in relation to how historical narratives are constructed and consent manufactured. That would take time and space and it would sail over your head.

However, if you just need a definition of the word elite, here it is
1. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status
2. A size of type on a typewriter, equal to 12 characters per linear inch.

Choose whichever definition makes the most sense to you.

I thought it was perfectly obvious what I was asking. Who are the Elies? Not 'please provide a description of them in relation to historical narratives'. Not 'define the word elie'.

When did I deny their existence? You're just making things up now.

This left the Elites with a problem, they couldnt admit that the story had been deliberately fabricated (as it obviously had been) because that would raise the question what other pieces of evidence had been similarly fabricated (quite a lot as it happens). Neither did the Elites think they could persuade the People that soap had been made from human bodies.
. . . . Not because the Elites care about Soap particularly, but because they see it as the thin end of the wedge by which the People could undermine their position.

Here you are saying 'The Elies'. Are you meaning to imply that your 'group of group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status' are some kind of unified group with a shared agenda?

 

[Moss]

A sarcastic person might speculate that it is an euphemism for "TEH JOOS!". I'm so glad I'm not sarcastic.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

Frankly I haven't the foggiest. My own assumption is nothing especially bad happened to them, otherwise the Jews themselves would want to find out.

As long as they stick with "we were all gassed in the bakery" [brick factory??] story, I feel no need to be overly concerned.

I have better things to do than trying to find people who don't want to be found. You saw what happened to the Elie Wiesel thread - a bunch of German documents back up the claim by an Auschwitz survivor that he is an imposter but it gets shunted off to the conspiracy section.

The Holocaust isn't about remembrance, its about Power

The only time you feign indifference regarding the whereabouts of "missing" Jews is when someone asks you directly about your alternatives for the whereabouts of murdered Jews.

The rest of the time you're devising hare-brained schemes to locate them (How are the Dutch phonebook searches coming along?) while starting threads on various fora proclaiming (falsely) to have found them (Kulischer says, what? Oh, that excerpt was about non-Jewish slave laborers, really.) or providing other Holocaust deniers with hints about the identity of murdered letter writers (What should she have been writing, given the circumstances?).
The remainder of your time online appears to be devoted to hare-splitting irrelevancies - whatever the attention whoring, trolling objective may be at any given time or warren.

That's ok though because you must have noticed that, until you do find "missing" Jews where they aren't supposed to be, very few people are willing to accept what you (Holocaust denying conspiracy loons) allege.

I bet it is the most common question you encounter whenever you reveal your schemes and ideas to a virgin audience.
"So..., if what you say is true, where are all those Jews?"

Here's a variation; "Have you found them yet?" And if you have, how did Ulrich Busch react to your revelations? Was he more impressed than when you suggested he should get facsimiles of the original transport lists? When will you tell;

The son of:
Abraham Cohen, Amsterdam, September 13, 1893 - (Sobibor June 11, 1943)
Mietje Cohen-Ancona, Amsterdam, August 10, 1890 - (Sobibor June 11, 1943)
The brother of:
Freddy Cohen, Amsterdam, December 18, 1923 - (Sobibor April 2, 1943)

The son of:
Emmy Cortissos-Dreesde Amsterdam, March 25, 1912 - (Sobibor May 21, 1943)

The son of:
Louis Degen, Amsterdam, February 12, 1912 - (Sobibor April 9, 1943)
Rebecca Degen-Berger, Amsterdam, September 18, 1916 - (Sobibor April 9, 1943)
The Brother of:
Isaias Degen, Amsterdam, December 13, 1939 - (Sobibor April 9, 1943)

The son of:
Isaac (Izak) Fransman, Amsterdam, July 23, 1898 - (Sobibor April 9, 1943)
Rachel Fransman-van Lochem, Amstedam, July 7, 1900 - (Sobibor April 9, 1943)

The son of:
Salomon Goedel, Amsterdam, March 7, 1910 - (Sobibor May 28, 1943)
Eva Goedel-Roodveldt, Amsterdam, April 17, 1910 - (Sobibor May 28, 1943)

The son of:
Levie de Groot, Amsterdam, January 15, 1905 - (Sobibor July 2, 1943)
Harriette de Groot-Roozendaal, Amsterdam, February 24, 1914 - (Sobibor May 14, 1943)

The son of:
Margaretha Haas-Vleeschhouwer, Amsterdam, March 20, 1907 - (Sobibor April 23, 1943)
The brother of
Izaäk Haas, Breda, November 7, 1933 - (Sobibor April, 23, 1943)
Elizabeth Haas, Breda, September 18, 1932 - (Sobibor April 23, 1943)

The son of:
Bernhard Wolgang Hellmann, Vienna, November 7, 1903 - (Sobibor April 2, 1943)

The stepson of:
Maurits Hamburg, Amsterdam, October 3, 1901 - (Sobibor July 2, 1943)
Son of:
Rosa Hamburg-Wijnberg, Groningen, June 25 1897 - (Sobibor July 2 1943)
Brother of:
Josephine Rozette van Huiden, Amsterdam, June 26, 1925 - (Sobibor July 2, 1943)

The son of:
Samuel Jacobs, Amsterdam, April 16, 1890 - (Sobibor July 23, 1943)
Duifje Jacobs-Vorst, Amsterdam, May 5, 1899 - (Sobibor July 23, 1943)
The fiancé of:
Ruth Eva Asch, Höchst am Main, October 1, 1923 - (Sobibor July 23, 1943)

The daughter of:
Salomon Elias Simons, Amsterdam, June 28. 1901 - (Sobibor April 23, 1943)
Cato ilse Simons-van den Bergh, Dordrecht, February 27, 1908 - (Sobibor April 23, 1943)

The Daughter of:
Louis Leijden van Amstel, Amsterdam, July 12, 1910 - (Sobibor July 9, 1943)
Esther Leijden van Amstel-Worms, Amsterdam, August 21, 1902 - (Sobibor July 9, 1943)

The husband of:
Rachel Schelvis-Borzykowski, Amsterdam, March 2, 1923 - (Sobibor June 4, 1943)

The daughter of:
Salomon Cohen, Nieheim, May 29, 1913 - (Sobibor April 23, 1943)
Bertha (Bep) Cohen-Hartog, Dordrecht, May 25, 1912 - (Sobibor April 23, 1943)

The son of:
Emanuel van Velzen, Amsterdam October 18, 1909 - (Sobibor May 21, 1943)
Duifje van Velzen-Wurms, Amsterdam, April 21, 1907 - (Sobibor May 21, 1943)

The son of:
Herbert Leon Vieijra, Amsterdam, April 12, 1913 - (Sobibor May 21, 1943)

The son of:
Joseph Isaac, Amsterdam, January 3, 1912 - (Sobibor June 4, 1943)
Anna Isaac-Gerritse, Amsterdam, November 28 1914 - (Sobibor June 4, 1943)

The brother of:
Kaatje Wurms, Amsterdam, August 8, 1927 - (Sobibor April 2, 1943)
Veronica Wurms, Amsterdam, May 4, 1929 - (Sobibor April 2, 1943)

In Memoriam

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

...

 

[TSR]

I don't the history of the denial movement

Then why do you make definitive statements about it?
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but I presume the Jewish Virtual Library know what they are talking about when they denounce Carlos Porter, Mark Weber and Bradley Smith.

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Depends on what they are being denounced for.

Got, you know, a citation to them being decounced specifically for uncovering documents regarding human soap experiments?
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The documents were the court transcripts and the USSR series used to back it up. Presumably no Nuremberg court document can be considered completely unknown, but knowledge might be very very restricted indeed.

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"Might be?" You seemed certain that the deniers had to go to an effort to uncover ... well, which ever document you claim whoever it was unconvered.

Can you support *any* of that statement with actual, you know, evidence?
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I think Hoaxsters spend so much time defending this nonsense for two reasons
1. It is like the farthest most outpost of their power structure and it makes sense tactically not to abandon it without a fight
2. The techniques that Soap demonstrated, ie deceitful collection of collaborating affidavits, spurious physical artifacts and bullying out admissions from vulnerable enemy civilians are not something that Hoaxsters wish to admit to.

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Really? What do you find "spurious" about the physical evidence for human soap, and why?

And who are you claiming was bullied to testify and what proof do you offer that they were?
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As always it is We the People, who are the losers.

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What, precisely, have you "lost" due to the human soap experiments?
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[TSR]

TSR keeps pushing his lie that anybody made this argument.

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You have made the claim that the EG only killed partisans.

Children are documented as having been killed.

Now, should you prefer to clearly and unequivocally state that the EG also killed unarmed civilians, we can move on.
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I have shown links to the Wiesenthal Center stating that no less than 96% of the executions were carried out by the local population.

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... according to Jäger, by his direction and under his orders.

Funny that you keep forgetting that part.
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TSR should ask himself why the local population was so motivated to do this.

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Because they were haters, just like the Nazi's were.

Funny that you seem to think this makes it okay -- at the very least (having been invited to do so) you do not condemn them for it...
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If TSR wants to discuss this off-topic question further I encourage him to start a new thread titled "Why the East-Europeans did not like the Jews"

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No, I'd rather discuss the very on topic question of why you keep ignoring the fact that Jäger ordered the killing of children.

Were they partisans or not?

What specifically did *these* Jews, especially the children, do to excuse their murder as you are so desperate to do?
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[Toke]

They also decided to murder another 2 million using engine exhaust - diesel engine exhaust being the main method - they probably choose diesel because then they would have to do something very strange and intricate to the engine to make the exhaust toxic and we know how much Germans love a technical challenge.

Odd, I was sure we had covered diesel engines before on this tread.
You do realise that the diesel going into the engine comes out the other end as CO2, CO, and assorted pollutants. It can kill people, and is much simpler to manufacture and handle than poison gas.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Odd, I was sure we had covered diesel engines before on this tread.
You do realise that the diesel going into the engine comes out the other end as CO2, CO, and assorted pollutants. It can kill people, and is much simpler to manufacture and handle than poison gas.

Diesel engines differ from gasoline engine in that have high air to fuel ratios and therefore complete combustion ( which is why they are seen as a cleaner fuel). Complete combustion means minimal CO emissions, well below the level to be toxic. Gasoline engines, conversely, work with lower air to fuel ratios (due IIRC to the lower explosive point of gasoline - but I would have to check that). Because air or oxygen is limiting then combustion is incomplete, incomplete combustion leads to higher levels of carbon monoxide that in theory it might be possible to construct a lethal gas chamber from.

For Diesel engines to emit toxic exhaust they need to be running in conditions of incomplete combustion. This could be done either by restricting the air supply (such as by partially blocking the air inlet) or by alterations to the fuel pump to increase fuel injection and adding some kind of device to put a load on the engine to prevent it overheating. Its difficult to understand why anyone would do such a procedure when there was a widely available, cheap technology called Holzgas or producer gas, that produced extremely high levels of carbon monoxide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas
During WW2 the Germans converted large numbers of tractors and trucks to run on Holzgas

Should anyone have used carbon monoxide gas at Treblinka, then you would expect said victims of carbon monoxide poisoning to appear bright red or pink. We have two claims of color: one that they looked blue (Gerstein and Pfannestiel) and the other that they looked yellow (Wiernik and Grossman).

 

[TSR]

"The Germans decided to kill 6 million Jews but neglected to leave any orders stating this.

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OF course, there is also no order for the invasion of the USSR -- I guess that never happened, either.
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2 million were killed by shooting Jews and putting them in Sardienpackung mass graves - not one of which has a single photograph of being exhumed.

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Because, we have photographic evidence of ***every other mass grave in the world*** being exhumed...
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They also decided to murder another 2 million using engine exhaust - diesel engine exhaust being the main method - they probably choose diesel because then they would have to do something very strange and intricate to the engine to make the exhaust toxic and we know how much Germans love a technical challenge.

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Yes, how very difficult it is to partially block an engine's intake.

And the bunny can give us specific numbers showing that this was the *main* method, right? Because bunny has never lied about the evidence before <cough cough deniers outing the human soap experiments cough>
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Unfortunately we can't show you any physical evidence because the Germans completely burned all the bodies leaving not a visible trace behind or even any earth disturbance where the graves were.

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You mean other than the traces of HCN in the gas chambers at Auschwitz so intense that they are detectable after decades of exposure to the elements, and the bone fragments to be found all over there.

And "no earth disturbance?" Are you *sure* you want to bring Krege into this? Remember he couldn't find any evidence of any camp being there ever -- something not even your betters in the denialist movement deny. Maybe because Krege had no discernible training of expertise in the use of and interpretation of the results from a GPR?

And what was that whining about a study having to be published before it can be accepted?
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Finally another million were killed in gigantic crematorium with strange underground wings in Auschwitz, and even stranger, hundreds of historians, survivors etc are on record as saying that these crematoria looked from the outside like bakeries"

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Then you will have no problem citing, say, a dozen historians making this claim?

Or is this another statement you have not researched, like your claim about deniers and the human soap?
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You see how ridiculous it looks? So what you do instead is tell the person to go off and read all the enormous literature on the subject. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

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Because it is far more credible to make claims you are forced to admit you have no basis to make.

Such is the state of denier "scholarship."
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