Jones and CRU exonerated

Alright, having read the paper I find it incredible that you think any of the data supports anything Cohn and Lins Argued. From literally the next sentence after you cut off the quote:



Yes, there are problems with climate reconstructions, shocking, but those problems aren't remotely significant enough to cast doubt on the broader conclusions.



From the conclusion:



This paper basically validates another criticism of the Cohn/Lins argument from Rybski (I haven't read that whole paper, can't get past the magical pay-wall).

D. Rybski, A. Bunde, S. Havlin, H. von Storch, Geophysical Research Letters 33 (2006) art. no. L06718.



Again, Cohn and Lins may ultimately help improve models with the criticism, but they're no where near casting doubt on AGW from a statistical perspective, much less a physical one.

Your understanding is, unsurprisingly, no better than TK's.

Cohn and Lins just pointed out that LTP is present in many climatic variables, and with LTP, you get wider CIs. Rybski et al confirm this. Halley confirms this. Where is this viewpoint falsified? Answer: it isn't. All three papers support my original contention.

We have the pointless bunfight over whether the last century is "significant" (whatever that means). This was never my point, it was a strawman that you and TK raised. I note you even use the word "significant" yourself, destroying any meaning it may have once had:
TraneWreck said:
Yes, there are problems with climate reconstructions, shocking, but those problems aren't remotely significant enough to cast doubt on the broader conclusions.
This is a classic example of hand waving verbiage with no meaning. Halley (correctly) notes he has no way of determining the magnitude of the bias. Without a reasonable estimate of the magnitude, you cannot possibly know if the problems are "significant". The fact that you throw around words like "significant" without the slightest idea of the magnitude of the problem tells me you don't understand the problems involved.
 
Your understanding is, unsurprisingly, no better than TK's.

[...]

This is a classic example of hand waving verbiage with no meaning. Halley (correctly) notes he has no way of determining the magnitude of the bias. Without a reasonable estimate of the magnitude, you cannot possibly know if the problems are "significant". The fact that you throw around words like "significant" without the slightest idea of the magnitude of the problem tells me you don't understand the problems involved.

Yes, Halley doesn't know the precise magnitude, but in order to support the contention that natural phenomena could explain current warming, that magnitude would have to be MASSIVELY larger. He says this is highly improbable.

Thus, significant work has to be done to provide the extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claim that the statistical problems involvig LTP could be a minimum 4x worse.

Both Rybski et al and Halley show that statistical issues involving LTP do not lead to the conclusion that recent warming can be explained by natural causes.

Again, the criticism of modeling launched by Cohn and Lins DOES NOT lend any support to the argument that what's happening right now can be explained naturally.
 
TraneWreck quoted from Halley's paper (with my corrections in gray):
Therefore, it is worth asking how much larger should be the variability of the reconstructions in order that the observed trend be consistent with a purely natural process. Table 2 gives the ``threshold of insignificance'' for each reconstruction. This is the factor by which each reconstruction must be multiplied before there is a 5% chance of observing large slopes (> beta0) in a sequence of length 157 years. These results were found by multiplying by an increasing factor, and repeating steps (a)-(g) above until p >= 0.05. For example, the variance of the dArrigo2 series (which has the highest probability in Table 1) should be 4.3 times larger than it is, to explain the trend in CRUTEM3 (0.0061 degrees/year) and 2.7 times larger to explain the trend in TaveNH2v (0.0046 degrees/year).

We have the pointless bunfight over whether the last century is "significant" (whatever that means). This was never my point, it was a strawman that you and TK raised. I note you even use the word "significant" yourself, destroying any meaning it may have once had:

This is a classic example of hand waving verbiage with no meaning. Halley (correctly) notes he has no way of determining the magnitude of the bias. Without a reasonable estimate of the magnitude, you cannot possibly know if the problems are "significant". The fact that you throw around words like "significant" without the slightest idea of the magnitude of the problem tells me you don't understand the problems involved.
You don't think Halley's "5% chance" and "p >= 0.05" have anything to do with significance?
 
Yes, Halley doesn't know the precise magnitude, but in order to support the contention that natural phenomena could explain current warming, that magnitude would have to be MASSIVELY larger. He says this is highly improbable.
That's funny. I searched the text for the word "MASSIVELY" and he doesn't use it. Not even in lower case.

No offence, but Halley's commentary is way more nuanced than yours. And secondly, he notes that just changing from CRU v2 to v3 changes the magnitude of the effect by a factor of two.

Please read this carefully. The instrumental data set, of which v2 and v3 are pretty similar, and which do not have variance problems of the type associated with reconstructions, can have a x2 effect on the variance.

Clearly, x4 is not such a stretch for a series that does have systematic problems.

Halley understood this. You don't.

Thus, significant work has to be done to provide the extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claim that the statistical problems involvig LTP could be a minimum 4x worse.
Here again, bandying around the word "significant" like you know what it means. As noted, 4x is actually well within the bounds of likelihood.

Just to underline this, the difference between Mann's reconstruction and D'Arrigo's reconstruction is 4x. So we've already had a 4x increase in variance in reconstruction in the seven years that transpired between those two publications. If you really think another 4x is extraordinary, then we've already witnessed the "extraordinary". Perhaps your definition of the word "extraordinary" is different to the one everyone else uses?

Both Rybski et al and Halley show that statistical issues involving LTP do not lead to the conclusion that recent warming can be explained by natural causes.
So what, Mr Strawman? As I have said over and over again, this was not my contention. I merely claimed that LTP affects CIs, and not in a good way. Every single paper we've discussed agrees LTP is relevant and should be accounted for.

And, as usual, you and TK will ignore that point (which was always my main point), because you have no answer to it.

Again, the criticism of modeling launched by Cohn and Lins DOES NOT lend any support to the argument that what's happening right now can be explained naturally.
LOL. Clueless. You make all the mistakes that Cohn and Lins caution us from making. Halley doesn't make the same mistakes you do. It is mildly hilarious that you can't even see it.
 
TraneWreck quoted from Halley's paper (with my corrections in gray):

You don't think Halley's "5% chance" and "p >= 0.05" have anything to do with significance?

That 5% chance does not account for the systematic bias in the reconstructions. The systematic bias will have an unknown impact on the p-value. That is what is being discussed.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to quantify at this time, as noted by Halley in his paper.

Edited: Text above is not at all clear. Clearly, the 5% chance is assessing how great the bias needs to be (so it is considering the bias), but since the magnitude of the bias is unknown, it is impossible to put a value on it. That's the point being discussed.

Halley nowhere places a p-value on the magnitude of the bias. That is what TraneWreck used the term "significance" to refer to.
 
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First: no need to apologise. We all make mistakes. Some of us try to learn from them, though.

I wasn't apologizing, which should have been obvious.

Secondly: he didn't say they were "fairly crude". He pointed out there was evidence of systematic bias and that some of them must be flat wrong. Again, your spin will doubtless endear you to believers, but try reading the text.
I didn't say that Halley said that they were "fairly crude". I was offering my own opinion.

You're not very good at picking up context, are you?

The rest of your post is just more of your attempt to represent the gist of Halley's paper as a discussion of why we should believe that the true historical variance in climate data is significantly larger than has been estimated from paleo-climate reconstructions. Since apparently it is now possible for others to read the paper, I'll let it speak for itself.
 
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That's funny. I searched the text for the word "MASSIVELY" and he doesn't use it. Not even in lower case.

[...]

Clearly, x4 is not such a stretch for a series that does have systematic problems.

Halley understood this. You don't.

Haha, funny stuff. Yes, massively was my word.

ANd yes, it is a stretch, as Halley pointed out in his conclusion.


Here again, bandying around the word "significant" like you know what it means. As noted, 4x is actually well within the bounds of likelihood.

Just to underline this, the difference between Mann's reconstruction and D'Arrigo's reconstruction is 4x. So we've already had a 4x increase in variance in reconstruction in the seven years that transpired between those two publications. If you really think another 4x is extraordinary, then we've already witnessed the "extraordinary". Perhaps your definition of the word "extraordinary" is different to the one everyone else uses?

So, your argument is that despite a total lack of statistical evidence supporting a claim that natural variance could be 4x stronger, much less physical evidence, because it's theoretically possible, though highly unlikely, we cannot what? Say with confidence that AGW is true? Because Halley concludes just that.

Once more:

Overall, this paper underlines the importance of LTP models in climate and in particular their application to the attribution problem. It strengthens the findings of Rybski et al. that it is very difficult to explain the current global rise in global temperature through the agency of a natural LTP process. In conclusion, even accounting for the effects of LTP, non-stationarity, aliasing, uncertainties in estimating exponents and issues of variability missing from reconstructions, from a statistical viewpoint it still seems unlikely that the modern instrumental trend can be explained by natural agencies.


So what, Mr Strawman? As I have said over and over again, this was not my contention. I merely claimed that LTP affects CIs, and not in a good way. Every single paper we've discussed agrees LTP is relevant and should be accounted for.

Sure, and all I've said in response is that this problem is known and not significant enough to bring broader conclusions into doubt. This was Halley's conclusion as well.
 
I wasn't apologizing, which should have been obvious.
Yeah, I guessed that you weren't the apologising type.

I didn't say that Halley said that they were "fairly crude". I was offering my own opinion.
And I was pointing out that your opinion is a blinkered and ignorant opinion, and used Halley's nuanced commentary (instead of my own opinion) to show why your opinion fails.

The rest of your post is just more of your attempt to represent the gist of Halley's paper as a discussion of why we should believe that the true historical variance in climate data is significantly larger than has been estimated from paleo-climate reconstructions.
I didn't say that was the gist of the paper (oh why more straw men?). I pointed out that there are problems that Halley himself recognised that limit the utility of the paper in terms of the conclusions you want to draw. There are no such limits on the conclusions I draw from the paper - that LTP should be accounted for in climate analyses. This conclusion is rock solid.

Since apparently it is now possible for others to read the paper, I'm not going to bother to respond. The paper speaks for itself.
LOL. I notice you did not, at any point, actually answer my primary point about methods for CIs used in climate science. Throughout your reams of verbiage. That stands as a matter of record of this thread.

And now you give up, without addressing my main point even once. How many times did I bring it up? And how many times does it get snipped and ignored in your replies in preference for your little man of straw? Yet even your response to your own straw man was riddled with holes. No surprises there, really.
 
Haha, funny stuff. Yes, massively was my word.

ANd yes, it is a stretch, as Halley pointed out in his conclusion.
No, it isn't a stretch, for the reasons already outlined.

So, your argument is that despite a total lack of statistical evidence supporting a claim that natural variance could be 4x stronger, much less physical evidence, because it's theoretically possible, though highly unlikely, we cannot what? Say with confidence that AGW is true? Because Halley concludes just that.
No. Because 4x variance has already happened, it isn't "highly unlikely" by any stretch of the imagination. Halley is just wrong on this (although it is only one small error and does not undermine the good work in most of the paper)

Sure, and all I've said in response is that this problem is known and not significant enough to bring broader conclusions into doubt. This was Halley's conclusion as well.
Yes, I'm aware Halley suddenly pulls the unquantified statement "unlikely" out in his conclusions even though that "unlikely" event has already happened once and is quantified as such in his paper.

Given that it has already happened once, calling it "unlikely" is clearly wrong. It is the only real mistake in his paper.
 
That 5% chance does not account for the systematic bias in the reconstructions. The systematic bias will have an unknown impact on the p-value. That is what is being discussed.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to quantify at this time, as noted by Halley in his paper.

Edited: Text above is not at all clear. Clearly, the 5% chance is assessing how great the bias needs to be (so it is considering the bias), but since the magnitude of the bias is unknown, it is impossible to put a value on it. That's the point being discussed.

Halley nowhere places a p-value on the magnitude of the bias. That is what TraneWreck used the term "significance" to refer to.

You're taking much too seriously the way Halley chose to phrase his argument. He was posing the question specifically to rule out the possibility. "Could there be bias? I suppose, but in order for that bias to be significant enough to allow for a natural cause of warming, it would have to be huge."

I find it highly amusing that you've read that paper and concluded that it somehow highlights the potential significance of that bias. It argues the opposite. Here's the section again:

Might there be some systematic underestimation of variability, and if so how much? Clearly some variance will have ``gone missing'' from the reconstructions but how much? Obviously this question cannot be answered yet, pending an improvement of our knowledge of the reconstruction process. Therefore, it is worth asking how much larger should be the variability of the reconstructions in order that the observed trend be consistent with a purely natural process. Table 2 gives the ``threshold of insignificance'' for each reconstruction. This is the factor by which each reconstruction must be multiplied before there is a 5% chance of observing large slopes (>0) in a sequence of length 157 years. These results were found by multiplying by an increasing factor, and repeating steps (a)(g) above until p 0:05. For example, the variance of the dArrigo2 series (which has the highest probability in Table 1) should be 4.3 times larger than it is, to explain the trend in CRUTEM3 (0:0061=year) and 2.7 times larger to explain the trend in TaveNH2v (0:0046=year).

So even taking the numbers most favorable to a naturalistic explanation, the bias would have to be enormous. An outcome Halley calls unlikely.

Now, where in this paper do you find Halley making any sort of argument that this bias actually exists? You've been confused by a question posed by the author to deal with a position he disagreed with.
 
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You're taking much too seriously the way Halley chose to phrase his argument. He was posing the question specifically to rule out the possibility. "Could there be bias? I suppose, but in order for that bias to be significant enough to allow for a natural cause of warming, it would have to be huge."
Once again, you misrepresent his views. He didn't use the word "massive" or "huge" for a reason. He gave a number because that is the scientific thing to do.

He said 4x. And 4x has demonstrably already occurred once (Mann->D'Arrigo). Why are you so confident that it couldn't happen again?

I find it highly amusing that you've read that paper and concluded that it somehow highlights the potential significance of that bias. It argues the opposite.
I find it amusing that you replace quantified values with loaded words and cannot see that this "unlikely" event has already happened once.

So even taking the numbers most favorable to a naturalistic explanation, the bias would have to be enormous. An outcome Halley calls unlikely.
So you accept that Mann et al has an "enormous" and "unlikely" bias compared to D'Arrigo? Strange choice of words.

Now, where in this paper do you find Halley making any sort of argument that this bias actually exists? You've been confused a question posed by the author to deal with a position he disagreed with.
Read the paper. I quoted the section. Halley notes other scientists have put forward a claim it exists, and references an example paper. He then acknowledges that the problem has not yet been quantified. He asks the question "How much?" then states that we do not know the answer. Are you confusing his asking "How much?" with his statement that we don't know? It seems that way to me.
 
Once again, you misrepresent his views. He didn't use the word "massive" or "huge" for a reason. He gave a number because that is the scientific thing to do.

He said 4x. And 4x has demonstrably already occurred once (Mann->D'Arrigo). Why are you so confident that it couldn't happen again?

There was a range of results based on given models. The natural varience was significantly wide of all of them. That's why, like Halley, I'm confident.

And that's only with respect to the statistics. Again, none of this deals with any physical evidence, and there's a very real problem with what the world would look like were natural variance that strong.

But I'm curious how confident you are. You want to have a friendly bet on this matter? What do you think the odds are that current warming will be explained by natural variance? I'd say they're pretty long.

Additionally, the difference between the models in question is well understood. There are clear factual explanations of how they yielded different results. There is no such evidence to support the idea that natural variance will ultimately be found to be many multiples greater.

I find it amusing that you replace quantified values with loaded words and cannot see that this "unlikely" event has already happened once.

So you accept that Mann et al has an "enormous" and "unlikely" bias compared to D'Arrigo? Strange choice of words.

The "unlikely" event that occured once did so in a range that the second "unlikely" event doesn't approach. It's illogical to hypothesize, absent any evidence, that because two models vary to a certain degree, natural variance must also have the same property.

Read the paper. I quoted the section. Halley notes other scientists have put forward a claim it exists, and references an example paper. He then acknowledges that the problem has not yet been quantified. He asks the question "How much?" then states that we do not know the answer. Are you confusing his asking "How much?" with his statement that we don't know? It seems that way to me.

Yes, that was the section I linked. He says, "How much, we don't know precisely, but we do know that it being enough to explain warming with natural variance is unlikely."

He posed the question to dismiss the theory behind it.
 
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Yes, Halley doesn't know the precise magnitude, but in order to support the contention that natural phenomena could explain current warming, that magnitude would have to be MASSIVELY larger. He says this is highly improbable.

Thus, significant work has to be done to provide the extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claim that the statistical problems involvig LTP could be a minimum 4x worse.

Both Rybski et al and Halley show that statistical issues involving LTP do not lead to the conclusion that recent warming can be explained by natural causes.

Again, the criticism of modeling launched by Cohn and Lins DOES NOT lend any support to the argument that what's happening right now can be explained naturally.


The other issue here is that even when you do get variability arising from natural causes, there is no reason at all to think those causes can’t be identified. For example decrease in solar output explains at least part of the dip in the LIA, increases in solar activity explain as much as 40% of the warming from 1900-1940, land use changes in Europe and North America may explain variation in the Roman and MWP, Volcanic activity explains many other events etc.

IOW, while we see natural variation and persistence in the climate record, it isn’t simply random, it’s traceable to known causes. That means we can look at these know causes to find out if they are contributing the current climate change, and the major ones at least, are not.
 
And the funny thing is, this fictional professor already exists, and has a class schedule, and has classes in rooms that do not exist. He's been a running joke with folks at that institution for 30 years... Every so often somebody tries to sign up for one of them, but the classes are ALWAYS full up...
Too funny it looks like this stunt was tried before with no success. They have a method to verify that is brilliant.
 
I’m perfectly happy with “subjective” standards like impact factor and acceptance within the scientific community.
A subjective determination of popularity is just that and it is impossible to objectively determine "acceptance within the scientific community". Your meaningless statements are all nonsense.

As pointed out simply implementing a referred system doesn’t make a publication worthwhile, and certainly doesn’t make the articles in it worthwhile. Peer review is a necessary but not a sufficient condition, and ISI, SCOUPUS, and the scientific community have decided E&E doesn’t cut it as a scientific journal.
Does E&E meet SCOPUS's trade journal requirements? The "scientific community" has made no such decision.

IOW no amount of reproducing results will ever prove the next outcome, and any suggestion to the contrary is a logic fallacy.
Reproducible results can definitely determine scientific validity. Otherwise it is simply a matter of faith and I am not religious.
 
There was a range of results based on given models. The natural varience was significantly wide of all of them. That's why, like Halley, I'm confident.
I'm trying to figure out what you're saying here but you make little or no sense.

Simple fact: the reconstructions had non-overlapping confidence intervals. They are incompatible; i.e., they are inconsistent.

Simple fact: the order of magnitude of inconsistency is the same as the difference required to make Halley's results insignificant

Simple fact: the inconsistency between reconstructions is a form of error.

Consequence: the magnitude of the effect measured by Halley is no larger than the error.

Direct quantification of the results show that the 4x (which isn't really even 4x, it should be 2.7x, due to unaccounted for uncertainty in the instrumental data) is not "enormous", is not "huge". It is just 4x (2.7x), and since there is a known (but unquantified) systematic bias present in the reconstructions, the conclusions you wish to draw are a stretch. You can hand-wave about how likely they are, but you can't quantify it, and if you can't quantify it, in science the claim is without merit.

And that's only with respect to the statistics. Again, none of this deals with any physical evidence, and there's a very real problem with what the world would look like were natural variance that strong.
Oh, but analysis of LTP is all about physical evidence. I appreciate you don't understand this.

But I'm curious how confident you are. You want to have a friendly bet on this matter? What do you think the odds are that current warming will be explained by natural variance? I'd say pretty high.
You see? You don't understand. I am not confident in the results. That's the point. The confidence is overstated. You are the one with the blinkered confidence. I can see large swathes of unquantified uncertainty that you are just ignoring.

But that is the problem. Because you ignore the uncertainty, you will never be a good judge of the situation.

Additionally, the difference between the models in question is well understood. There are clear factual explanations of how they yielded different results. There is no such evidence to support the idea that natural variance will ultimately be found to be many multiples greater.
Yes, there is, any system using variance matching (as all reconstructions do) in low signal/noise regimes will tend to systematically underestimate variance outside of the calibration period. This is very well understood and applies to all reconstructions.

What is unknown (as Halley correctly observes) is the magnitude of the underestimate. And without that magnitude, you are left with hand waving. Simply asserting there isn't a problem doesn't make it so. That isn't how science works.

The "unlikely" event that occured once did so in a range that the second "unlikely" event doesn't approach. It's illogical to hypothesize, absent any evidence, that because two models vary to a certain degree, natural variance must also have the same property.
We aren't absence of any evidence. The effect is known and documented in the press (Halley even cites an article for you). Variance matching suppresses variance outside the calibration period.

Yes, that was the section I linked. He says, "How much, we don't know precisely, but we do know that it being enough to explain warming with natural variance is unlikely."

He posed the question to dismiss the theory behind it.
Ugh. No, he didn't dismiss it. He clearly said we don't know the magnitude. He then ignores it. But how can you dismiss something you have no idea of the magnitude of?

Incidentally, Halley's work isn't terribly new. The points were largely covered in Koutsoyiannis 2007, in which he compares six proxy records to the instrumental series:

Thus, if one accepts one of the other four series as representative of the past climate, one can readily conclude that the observed temperature variation in the last years is not a result of natural dynamics. In other words, there is a statistical significance in the change of standard deviation, so no additional statistical test is needed. Furthermore, with simple statistical calculations with the standard deviation estimates shown in Table 1, we can easily classify the proxies in two groups (one is J98, M03, M05 and the other one M99, B00, E02), each of which contains series compatible to each other but the two groups are incompatible to each other. This makes unrealistic the possibility to use all series simultaneously in a global statistical approach and highlights once again the uncertainty involved in the use of proxy series.

Koutsoyiannis (more correctly) notes the disagreement is enough to make the natural dynamics claim, but it is clearly absurd to do so when two things measuring supposedly the same thing enable you to reject the possibility of natural dynamics. That is clearly an absurd result. I'm aware the existance of such an absurd result is no problem to you. But it is to people who follow the scientific method.

Ref: Koutsoyiannis, D., and A. Montanari, Statistical analysis of hydroclimatic time series: Uncertainty and insights, Water Resources Research, 43 (5), W05429, doi:10.1029/2006WR005592, 2007.
 
The other issue here is that even when you do get variability arising from natural causes, there is no reason at all to think those causes can’t be identified. For example decrease in solar output explains at least part of the dip in the LIA, increases in solar activity explain as much as 40% of the warming from 1900-1940, land use changes in Europe and North America may explain variation in the Roman and MWP, Volcanic activity explains many other events etc.

IOW, while we see natural variation and persistence in the climate record, it isn’t simply random, it’s traceable to known causes. That means we can look at these know causes to find out if they are contributing the current climate change, and the major ones at least, are not.

That's why this myopic focus on the statistics is so ultimately lacking in pursuasive power. Assuming that Cohn and Lins are correct and natural variance is large enough to encompass the degree of change we're experiencing now, that still doesn't mean that natural variance is the reason for current warming.

In other words, the fact that some solar event could be strong enough to warm the planet as much as it's warming now, that doesn't mean all instances of warming are due to solar events.

The fact that the deniers fail on the statistics is just more reason to dismiss them entirely.
 

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