Obama and the Gay Military...

[MikeMangum]

Well, I don't really think the race comparison stands. A voluntary military automatically means that it will be, for the most part, composed of poor people, who are more often not white.

Automatically means? Even though it is not true?

Isn’t the modern military full of men and women from low-income backgrounds, with a far higher minority representation than in the general population, who join up only because they have no other viable career possibilities?

That is certainly a piece of conventional wisdom that I have heard voiced; which is why a new report titled “Who Serves in the U.S. Military? The Demographics of Enlisted Troops and Officers” is so surprising.

...

The report measures the demographics of military personnel against the general U.S. population in four areas: household income, education level, racial and ethnic background, and regional origin. Here is the most surprising picture in the report:

graph not included

So 50 percent of the enlisted recruits (i.e., not including the officers’ corps) come from families in the top 40 percent of the income distribution, while only 10 percent come from the bottom 20 percent.

...

Whites and blacks make up almost exactly the same percent of the enlisted personnel as they do in the general population.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Automatically means? Even though it is not true?

It's surprising...until one remembers that, contrary to popular belief, the Military doesn't take just anyone.

To get in (without a waiver), you must have no felonies, a highschool diploma (or GED), ASVAB scores placing one in the top 50% of the testees that year, no prior drug use, etc.

 

[pgwenthold]

Very Interesting. I saw a very different change in the US Navy when the DADT came on line. The witch hunt attitude changed, but I saw it from the Officer end, maybe at the enlisted end it looked different in the Navy.

I did know an O-5 who was sent packing thanks to his having a sexual affair with a subordinate, who was male. Want to know who "outed" him?

His wife. Not a pretty event, from any angle.

DR

So what do you think of the recent case in North Dakota (or South, I don't remember) where an Air Force lesbian was outed by the police, who while visiting her home to serve a warrant on her spouse, just happened to "see" a marriage license in the house (through the window, they claim), and informed the officials at the Air Force base?

Who did she tell? No one. Who did she show it off to? No one. Yet, she was drummed out under DADT.

The police are defending their actions, claiming that the Air Force base had a right to the information, that the airman's spouse was subject to arrest. Others are claiming it was a retaliatory action by the police, because they called the airman, asking her to come home to help them arrest her spouse, and she refused (the spouse wasn't home at the time, and they didn't have a search warrant for the house)

 

[MikeMangum]

So what do you think of the recent case in North Dakota...

That is the problem with any selectively enforced law or regulation: it becomes a tool of punishment for crossing those in petty positions of power.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Why? Race seems to be much more complicated as it is so much harder to define than sexual preference.

Race is really kind of an illusion. Sexual orientation seems to a more defining thing.

Also, you can raise kids to be racially accepting and tolerant. I do not think you can raise a kid to be cool about sleeping alongside openly gay people.

Another thing is this. I am not sure that other countries have the same sort of demands or living conditions as the US military. I know they have subs. But still, I do not know if the living conditions are the same.

Also, I have found that Canadians and Brits thing A LOT differently than yanks. If I were to pick a country where people think more like Americans it would be a difficult task. Oddly enough, from my experience, the Japanese sometimes think like Americans.

There is an article on the home page here about how the religious wackos in the USA are up to nafarious stuff. Same ol' story here. And all the more reason why I suspect getting rid of DADT is not going to work.

 

[Bill Thompson]

And yet, it was still the right thing to do.

The right thing to do?

Not having a military at all is the right thing to do.

When did the world become fair? Tell me the date and time so I can make a note of it.

If you think that sexual orientation is the same sort of thing as race in human nature and is handled the same way, I think you need to do some soul searching.

Racial integration made the miltary stronger. My everything I have seen and read so far, the opposite could be the case with this judging by the attitudes and behaviour of americans.

 

[Bill Thompson]

And yet, it was still the right thing to do.

We are not talking about an accounting firm. We are not talking about UPS or some delivery service. We are not talking about an organization that does something because it is "the right thing to do".

If it were a business and the business somehow could not handle the change in policy, it is no big deal if the business folds or collapses. At least they did the right thing.

 

[Cleon]

The right thing to do?

Yep.

Not having a military at all is the right thing to do.

Uh. If you say so.

When did the world become fair? Tell me the date and time so I can make a note of it.

Who said anything about "fair?" Don't put words in my mouth.

If you think that sexual orientation is the same sort of thing as race in human nature and is handled the same way, I think you need to do some soul searching.

And I think you need to do some learning.

Racial integration made the miltary stronger. My everything I have seen and read so far, the opposite could be the case with this judging by the attitudes and behaviour of americans.

Right, because there weren't any racists protesting integration, the way homophobes will protest integration.

You couldn't be more full of crap if you were a compost heap.

 

[Cleon]

We are not talking about an accounting firm. We are not talking about UPS or some delivery service. We are not talking about an organization that does something because it is "the right thing to do".

If it were a business and the business somehow could not handle the change in policy, it is no big deal if the business folds or collapses. At least they did the right thing.

Right. Openly serving homosexuals will cause the military to "fold" or "collapse."

Stop posting, Bill. You'll only serve to embarrass yourself further.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Right. Openly serving homosexuals will cause the military to "fold" or "collapse."

Stop posting, Bill. You'll only serve to embarrass yourself further.

Given Bill's claim that the "right" thing to do would be to have no Military, wouldn't a collapse of the Military (even if caused by homosexuals serving openly) thus be a good thing™?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Race is really kind of an illusion. Sexual orientation seems to a more defining thing.

The main difference I see is that there are already gays and lesbians in the military. In fact, the people around them likely know who they are. They work together and are friends and colleagues already.

Contrast that to a racially exclusive military prior to integration. Many of those soldiers had never known a black person as a friend or a colleague.

Therefore the repeal of DADT should be far smoother than racial integration was.

Another thing is this. I am not sure that other countries have the same sort of demands or living conditions as the US military. I know they have subs. But still, I do not know if the living conditions are the same.

I'm new here, but should we base policy on a lack of knowledge?

Also, I have found that Canadians and Brits thing A LOT differently than yanks. If I were to pick a country where people think more like Americans it would be a difficult task. Oddly enough, from my experience, the Japanese sometimes think like Americans.

Are you really saying our soldiers can't handle working with the gay people they already work with if they have to admit openly that they know they are gay?

That is immensely insulting to the soldiers who serve our country. Reread what you wrote there.

Then imagine saying it out loud to the next soldier you run across at the airport. I feel ashamed for you.

There is an article on the home page here about how the religious wackos in the USA are up to nafarious stuff. Same ol' story here. And all the more reason why I suspect getting rid of DADT is not going to work.

There should be no tolerance for those bigots, either. That the problems are of the same type does not mean that we have to delay solving one until we solve the other.

I'm new to this thread but I would like to thank you for couching most of your doomsday prophecy in terms of "may" or "could" or "can't guarantee that it won't." I'd like to think those phrases indicate some acceptance of the fact that everything could go just swimmingly. The military may in fact be fabulous after everything is said and done.

 

[pgwenthold]

Right. Openly serving homosexuals will cause the military to "fold" or "collapse."

Stop posting, Bill. You'll only serve to embarrass yourself further.

I don't know, I didn't think it could get much dumber than "race is an illusion" but sexual orientation is "defining."

 

[Darth Rotor]

So what do you think of the recent case in North Dakota (or South, I don't remember) where an Air Force lesbian was outed by the police, who while visiting her home to serve a warrant on her spouse, just happened to "see" a marriage license in the house (through the window, they claim), and informed the officials at the Air Force base?

Who did she tell? No one. Who did she show it off to? No one. Yet, she was drummed out under DADT.

The police are defending their actions, claiming that the Air Force base had a right to the information, that the airman's spouse was subject to arrest. Others are claiming it was a retaliatory action by the police, because they called the airman, asking her to come home to help them arrest her spouse, and she refused (the spouse wasn't home at the time, and they didn't have a search warrant for the house)

WTF? pg, I am at a loss as to why the Cops went out of their way (civilian cops??) to do this.

Not sure what it has to do with DADT, other than once the USAF was aware of "caught at it" (does this make any sense) they may have come to the conclusion that they could not do other than discharge her. I'd have to ask a current JAG, I know one, what he thinks of this. What a weird case.

Jesus wept: don't the cops have a real job, like catching speeders and people who rob convenience stores?

DR

 

[Complexity]

The continued persecution of gay, lesbian, and other non-straight people has helped me to make a decision.

The last few times that I looked for a job, I seriously considered pursuing positions at defense companies or that required a security clearance.

No more. I will not work for the government in any capacity for any reason. I will not be involved in any research for DARPA or other agencies.

I do research in computer science and mathematics (mostly on algorithms for challenging problems) and I will not work for these bigots and bastards. Screw them.

 

[Complexity]

I suspect he is waiting until his second term.

Obama isn't going to get a second term if he doesn't earn it.

So far, he's no where close to getting my vote.

I'll probably vote for my dead cat.

 

[D'rok]

The continued persecution of gay, lesbian, and other non-straight people has helped me to make a decision.

The last few times that I looked for a job, I seriously considered pursuing positions at defense companies or that required a security clearance.

No more. I will not work for the government in any capacity for any reason. I will not be involved in any research for DARPA or other agencies.

I do research in computer science and mathematics (mostly on algorithms for challenging problems) and I will not work for these bigots and bastards. Screw them.

I think I might have told this anecdote already on this thread - many pages ago. But what the heck...just to illustrate what is possible in a military environment.

I worked briefly as a contract sysadmin for the Canadian Department of Defence some years ago. My immediate supervisor was a lesbian Navy officer married to another lesbian Navy officer. They served openly and without rancour. The last time I talked to her, she and her partner were getting ready to both go on maternal leave - her partner was pregnant with their first child. In other words, they received full family benefits and their marriage was recognized both by the state and by the corporate culture of the military as legitimate and worthy of respect. In all respects, they were full and honourable members of the Canadian armed forces.

For that and a host of other reasons that completely destroyed my preconceived notions about the military, I will always have a baseline of deep respect for the institution - politics and pacifism aside.

If we can do it, you can do it. There is nothing so radically different about Canada that makes our experience impossible for you. I think change will come. And I can't believe this thread has gone for so many pages without any factual or rational arguments for why it shouldn't.

 

[cwalner]

The military may in fact be fabulous after everything is said and done.

Not sure if pith was intentional or not, but nominated anyway.

 

[cwalner]

The continued persecution of gay, lesbian, and other non-straight people has helped me to make a decision.

The last few times that I looked for a job, I seriously considered pursuing positions at defense companies or that required a security clearance.

No more. I will not work for the government in any capacity for any reason. I will not be involved in any research for DARPA or other agencies.

I do research in computer science and mathematics (mostly on algorithms for challenging problems) and I will not work for these bigots and bastards. Screw them.

As one of the gays you are showing solidarity with, I ask you not to do this. Bill does not represent the US military and the culture is changing and becoming more accepting. It is not fully there yet, but change takes time, especially in such large organizations. your solidarity and openness will, if you do take a military contracting position, only help to expedite the change and make things better faster.

 

[Complexity]

The problem, of course, lies with a majority of the American people. The politicians and demagogues are enabled by and cater to these people.

Obama refuses to lead on these issues. He will be found deficient by history as a result.

While Obama was quite happy to accept support from gays, he has never embraced civil rights. He remains opposed to gay marriage. He is afraid to lead the military away from bigotry. He's already failed in my opinion.

 

[cwalner]

The problem, of course, lies with a majority of the American people. The politicians and demagogues are enabled by and cater to these people.

Obama refuses to lead on these issues. He will be found deficient by history as a result.

While Obama was quite happy to accept support from gays, he has never embraced civil rights. He remains opposed to gay marriage. He is afraid to lead the military away from bigotry. He's already failed in my opinion.

I hear you, and I am disappointed with Obama on the gay issue, but that is not even the most important issue, much less the only issue. If, by the end of his term, his economic plans start showing some success, I will forgive him his failures on gay rights.