The Freeman Movement and England

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And maybe a last closing point for those who ridicule natural law:

Go and study some legal philosophy.

Locke, Rawls, Kant, Fichte are a good start for beginners.

Who has the laughing dog smiley? I've never used it before, but boy do I need it now.

You've just cemented your ignorance into an ironclad monument of stupidity. Congratulations. Citing those thinkers as authority for FOTLism could not be any clearer proof that you have either never actually read them, or you have utterly failed to grasp their ideas.

Take it away, Jamie!




ETA: Found it!

 
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K, D'rok and cwalner. This is the last time I'll bother. My time is too precious... may you guys become marry and happy slaves of the state.


Call the London Police for confirmation: +1 519-661-5670


You call a notarized affidavit of truth a "worthless fantasy document"? Dude, what are you on? What do you think "propper ID" is?


That is the biased claim of someone who under no circumstances would allow "authority" to fail, when it is us humans who form authority, which makes it everything but perfect. Even if the camera would have stayed on till the end. You wouldn't allow it as prove. The answer would have been like: "This cop must have been new" or "he'll probably get a ticket in the mail".


It is only ever the things we push ahead that will work. Us humans constitute our own environment, which is only ever as perfect as the scope of granted individual freedom. Again: Right and wrong cannot be distinguished based on which side has the force of weapons. And the more the force is abused, the more people will stand up for the right (thats a historical fact).


I'm sorry to have gone over you head. All I said is that there is natura/god-given/call it whatever state of things, that constitutes natural law: That every human is equal and has to mutually respect others the way they are. That no living being is to be hurt (except for survival. BTW, I'm surviving almost 10 years as a vegetarian). Simple reasoning. Or do you claim that you as a human have no capacity for that?


How do you figure? Being truly free IS being truly responsible! No (State-defined) duties, and definitely no benefits!


I assume you're pertaining to public roads. Are they not paying taxes on gas? Not to mention the hidden tax of inflation. Show me how that can be avoided. It would be interesting to see.


They apply it only to remind "persons" they deal with to abide by it. For example they may use whatever statute grants a fair hearing.

By using the term "freeloader" you have confirmed the feelings of your kind, that I attempted to describe before. You feel that you are working hard and "paying in for them", when in fact they aint getting nothing. Or you feel that "we all need to pay in". Do we? Who are the people to decide that? Are they better in any way than the people who are against this idea?


Maybe some day you will understand that "the sake of the common good" flourishes best where there is individual freedom, not coercion. Truly free people and self-responsible people recognize that solidarity and love is a necessity of human live. Of course, some will never learn. These people are definitely better of staying where they are, being nannied and taken care of by some supervising state.


Oh, so you recognize that things are the way they are, but still stand for deceiving codification? Wow.


You don't need "minority group rights" when you have natural individual rights (which in the case of the US have been constitutionalized).


Do you honestly believe that in a world of party-dictatorship, the left-right-paradigm, backroom deals, and massive lobbyism my voice or anyone elses really matters? Wake up! Look at Ireland who clearly said NO to the Lisbon treaty. Well, lets make them vote again, till we have what we want... meanwhile we bombard them a bit more with propaganda material. Then there's the German government elected by not even 30% of the people who entitled to vote, who gave a **** about their constitution (the "basic law") and simply ratified the Lisbon-decision over their people's heads. This is how "democracy" works.


Purely natural right and necessity driven... that simple. What you live is what we teach. The same applies to our "society", or shall I call it ideocracy?


There can only ever be one thing at stake. And that's the grant of being part of the community. Nobody is forced to stay and those who don't respect natural law or are unsolidary can go and try elsewhere. Mind you, that wouldn't mean they'd have to move.



Learn the difference between lawful and legal. Once you understand it, you will also understand the difference between statutes and actual law.
Actual law isn't man made but is merely based on the natural state of life and the capacity of human reason. Personally I'm not into the common law. Although it does interpret natural law fairly well, it is none the less a man-written version. I repeat: UNALIENABLE RIGHTS (that is un-saleable un-negotiable, and un-modifiable nature given rights!) cannot be defined by man. They are divine and the very opposite of lawlessness. Sorry for taking your conventional reasoning to capacity.

Not all humans but the vast amount of today's "society" needs the rule of law - that I agree with you. This however must not be an eternal state and is only the case, because they have (intentionally) been raised to be un-response-able (irresponsible), conform and fearful.

The following could be from me, but unfortunately isn't:

"
A man's RIGHT to exist for his own sake

Throughout the centuries, there were men who took first steps down new roads, armed with nothing but their own vision. The great creators - the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors - stood alone against the men of their time. Every new thought was opposed; every new invention was denounced. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered, and they paid. But they won!


It is an ancient conflict. It has another name: "The individual against the collective." "
Edited by LashL: 
Removed moderated content

Ayn Rand! Oh that's so precious. You are a gem.

[q
 
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I was going to make a DVD, but the production company kept trying to contract with me.
 
K, D'rok and cwalner. This is the last time I'll bother. My time is too precious... may you guys become marry and happy slaves of the state.
< edited to remove the inanity >

Well, you have me there. Even if I wanted to excersice my natural law rights to marry D'rok, I can't because in the USA there are statutes prohibiting that. But he lives in Canada, so I can just move there and it would be both legal and lawful.

Hmm maybe there is something to this Freeman thing?
 
Well, you have me there. Even if I wanted to excersice my natural law rights to marry D'rok, I can't because in the USA there are statutes prohibiting that. But he lives in Canada, so I can just move there and it would be both legal and lawful.

Hmm maybe there is something to this Freeman thing?

excuse the spelling error. "merry" of course.
 
The problem is this: Governments do exist and they do have the power to send you to jail. The unforunate followers of FOTL woo believe that they have found loopholes that allow them to live under the moral authority of god (or whatever source they DO feel has authority), and not have to answer to the government. Fantastic.

So, when those that have been drawn into this theory end up in prison because the loopholes they believe in do not exist, to what authority do they appeal? If you are wrongly imprisoned by the government for violating a statute you feel does not apply, what do you do? Who do you call with your one phone call that is going to make things right?

I still can't get my head around how this is supposed to work. So there's supposedly a conspiracy of NWO/Jews/gnomes/whatever who have created this legal system that only applies if you let it. "They" don't tell people about this, or what the real laws are, so "they" can keep "us" down. Even if this were true, why would "they" admit it when some nerk rocks up with a sheaf of internet printouts and refuses to contract with the court?

excuse the spelling error. "merry" of course.

You appear to have ignored both these posts, tobjai. Could you respond to one or both of them, please?

Talking philosophy is all well and good, but there's this little matter of actually making it happen. And every time an FOTLer tries to make it work, they seem to end up in jail or having their car crushed or getting evicted and that sort of thing. So, in practice, it seems that FOTL philosophy is a load of dogs' bollocks. But you have an excellent opportunity to demonstrate otherwise by responding to one or the other post above and explaining how this can actually work.
 
And maybe a last closing point for those who ridicule natural law:

Go and study some legal philosophy.

Locke, Rawls, Kant, Fichte are a good start for beginners.

Don't you see the problem with this statement? There is absolutely nothing wrong with studying legal philosophy, but the forums that are frequented by FOTL'ers are preaching more than philosophy. They are preaching system of evading the legal system we have established in this country and others.

Legal philosophy is fantastic. I don't even disagree with a good deal of what you said about where moral authority originates. I have my own opinions that differ, but I can't say that yours are incorrect.

What IS incorrect, is the legal practices that the FOTL forums - particularly the Icke forums - advise people to follow. If you want to stand up for your philosophy and debate it on merits on some internet forums, that is fantastic. But as soon as the FOTL'ers start throwing out plainly false theories (fringe on a flag means admiralty court, refusing to contract with the court gets you off the hook, etc.), I then have a problem with you.

Perhaps you do not provide the advice that some on those forums do. If that is the case, fantastic, don't start. If you do, then you have no right to come on these forums and try to claim moral superiority.

What is being discussed on this forum is not legal philosophy. We are not debating where moral authority comes from and who has the right to enforce laws upon humanity. What we are debating are the lunatic theories on the legal system that DOES exist (as opposed to the one the FOTL'ers WISHED existed), and how blatantly false they are.
 
FOTL: Libertarianism's unemployed brother-in-law.


It's like they've heard everything about how libertarians want the world to be, but have somehow concluded that is how it really is.
 
Guys. I dont have time for this. I should really just not come back, cos' every time I do, I feel compelled to say something.

You appear to have ignored both these posts, tobjai. Could you respond to one or both of them, please?
neocenturion said:
So, when those that have been drawn into this theory end up in prison because the loopholes they believe in do not exist, to what authority do they appeal? If you are wrongly imprisoned by the government for violating a statute you feel does not apply, what do you do? Who do you call with your one phone call that is going to make things right?
Hold on! Appealing equals begging. The FOTL-folks don't beg to anyone as they are their own authority. Like I said before, the use of force doesn't make things right. And if it takes the ultimate sacrifice, some FOTL say "so be it". I take my hat off to those people, as I'm not sure if I could go all the way. It is all about doing what feels right though - cos' when it truly feels right, it usually is.

Sledge said:
Even if this were true, why would "they" admit it when some nerk rocks up with a sheaf of internet printouts and refuses to contract with the court?
"They" don't because they can't, If they did they'd destroy their own house of cards. They simply either drop the case or walk away like they did at the filmed occasion you can find, when you go to vimeo dot com and then type /10211543 behind the URL.
 
Exactly. Not only that, but the peddlers of "advice" at the top of the pyramid are selling it for profit to the unfortunates at the bottom who end up in jail. Despicable.

Consider it evolution in action.
 
K, D'rok and cwalner. This is the last time I'll bother. My time is too precious... may you guys become marry and happy slaves of the state.
Edited by Gaspode: 
Corrected username as per rule 0.



Call the London Police for confirmation: +1 519-661-5670


You call a notarized affidavit of truth a "worthless fantasy document"? Dude, what are you on? What do you think "propper ID" is?


That is the biased claim of someone who under no circumstances would allow "authority" to fail, when it is us humans who form authority, which makes it everything but perfect. Even if the camera would have stayed on till the end. You wouldn't allow it as prove. The answer would have been like: "This cop must have been new" or "he'll probably get a ticket in the mail".


It is only ever the things we push ahead that will work. Us humans constitute our own environment, which is only ever as perfect as the scope of granted individual freedom. Again: Right and wrong cannot be distinguished based on which side has the force of weapons. And the more the force is abused, the more people will stand up for the right (thats a historical fact).


I'm sorry to have gone over you head. All I said is that there is natura/god-given/call it whatever state of things, that constitutes natural law: That every human is equal and has to mutually respect others the way they are. That no living being is to be hurt (except for survival. BTW, I'm surviving almost 10 years as a vegetarian). Simple reasoning. Or do you claim that you as a human have no capacity for that?


How do you figure? Being truly free IS being truly responsible! No (State-defined) duties, and definitely no benefits!


I assume you're pertaining to public roads. Are they not paying taxes on gas? Not to mention the hidden tax of inflation. Show me how that can be avoided. It would be interesting to see.


They apply it only to remind "persons" they deal with to abide by it. For example they may use whatever statute grants a fair hearing.

By using the term "freeloader" you have confirmed the feelings of your kind, that I attempted to describe before. You feel that you are working hard and "paying in for them", when in fact they aint getting nothing. Or you feel that "we all need to pay in". Do we? Who are the people to decide that? Are they better in any way than the people who are against this idea?


Maybe some day you will understand that "the sake of the common good" flourishes best where there is individual freedom, not coercion. Truly free people and self-responsible people recognize that solidarity and love is a necessity of human live. Of course, some will never learn. These people are definitely better of staying where they are, being nannied and taken care of by some supervising state.


Oh, so you recognize that things are the way they are, but still stand for deceiving codification? Wow.


You don't need "minority group rights" when you have natural individual rights (which in the case of the US have been constitutionalized).


Do you honestly believe that in a world of party-dictatorship, the left-right-paradigm, backroom deals, and massive lobbyism my voice or anyone elses really matters? Wake up! Look at Ireland who clearly said NO to the Lisbon treaty. Well, lets make them vote again, till we have what we want... meanwhile we bombard them a bit more with propaganda material. Then there's the German government elected by not even 30% of the people who entitled to vote, who gave a **** about their constitution (the "basic law") and simply ratified the Lisbon-decision over their people's heads. This is how "democracy" works.
Edited by Gaspode: 
Edited for rule 10.



Purely natural right and necessity driven... that simple. What you live is what we teach. The same applies to our "society", or shall I call it ideocracy?


There can only ever be one thing at stake. And that's the grant of being part of the community. Nobody is forced to stay and those who don't respect natural law or are unsolidary can go and try elsewhere. Mind you, that wouldn't mean they'd have to move.



Learn the difference between lawful and legal. Once you understand it, you will also understand the difference between statutes and actual law.
Actual law isn't man made but is merely based on the natural state of life and the capacity of human reason. Personally I'm not into the common law. Although it does interpret natural law fairly well, it is none the less a man-written version. I repeat: UNALIENABLE RIGHTS (that is un-saleable un-negotiable, and un-modifiable nature given rights!) cannot be defined by man. They are divine and the very opposite of lawlessness. Sorry for taking your conventional reasoning to capacity.
Not all humans but the vast amount of today's "society" needs the rule of law - that I agree with you. This however must not be an eternal state and is only the case, because they have (intentionally) been raised to be un-response-able (irresponsible), conform and fearful.

The following could be from me, but unfortunately isn't:

"
A man's RIGHT to exist for his own sake

Throughout the centuries, there were men who took first steps down new roads, armed with nothing but their own vision. The great creators - the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors - stood alone against the men of their time. Every new thought was opposed; every new invention was denounced. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered, and they paid. But they won!

Edited by Gaspode: 
Edited for rule 4.


Edited for rule 0, rule 4 and rule 10. Would suggest re-reading the Membership Agreement.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode

Guess atheists aren't welcome in FOTL society then.
 
And maybe a last closing point for those who ridicule natural law:

Go and study some legal philosophy.

Locke, Rawls, Kant, Fichte are a good start for beginners.

You missed Blackstone.
 
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