Bible prophecy debate

[TimCallahan]

I ill be debating Hugh Ross, old-earth creationist, on May 1, on the subject of Bible prophecy. For anyone in the Southern California area, here are the directions to the venue:

-1. 57 to Imperial (West on Imperial)
-1. South (left) on St. College
-1. West (right) on Rolling Hills
-1. Proceed to corner of Rolling Hills and Brea Blvd.
-1. Meeting Room (NC-200) is on the North Campus of EV Free Fullerton (NE corner of Rolling Hills and Brea Blvd.) . . . Look for the sign/poster that says “RTB Orange County” in front of the building.

Saturday May 1, 2010 10:30 AM to 1:00 PM
First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton, Room NC-200
2904 N. Brea Blvd. Fullerton, CA 92835
North Campus (NE corner of Rolling Hills and Brea Blvd.)

 

[Angus McPresley]

Good luck. How are you preparing? Do you know what sort of supposed prophecies he's likely to pull out?

 

[DOC]

I ill be debating Hugh Ross, old-earth creationist, on May 1, on the subject of Bible prophecy.

Well the PhD. in astrophysics Dr. Ross says there are about 2000 fulfilled prophecies in the bible so you will have a lot to talk about.

http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible

 

[tsig]

Good luck. How are you preparing? Do you know what sort of supposed prophecies he's likely to pull out?

Brown smelly ones.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

From DOC's link:

(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10¹⁵.)

I did a little research on this while debating some Jehovah's Witnesses, and found that most Biblical scholars divide Isaiah into at least two -- and sometimes more -- authors. The so-called Deutero-Isaiah, responsible for the Cyrus prophecies, was alive at the time of Cyrus. Not such an amazing prophecy, in other words.

Good luck getting Ross to accept the scholarly consensus, though.

(And hey -- might be interesting to have him formally derive his probabilities for you. )

 

[DOC]

From DOC's link:

I did a little research on this while debating some Jehovah's Witnesses, and found that most Biblical scholars divide Isaiah into at least two -- and sometimes more -- authors. The so-called Deutero-Isaiah, responsible for the Cyrus prophecies, was alive at the time of Cyrus. Not such an amazing prophecy, in other words.

Good luck getting Ross to accept the scholarly consensus, though.

Do you have a source that the consensus of biblical scholars believe the so-called Deutero-Isaiah, responsible for the Cyrus prophecies, was alive at the time of Cyrus as you imply.

 

[Lothian]

Do you have a source that the consensus of biblical scholars believe the so-called Deutero-Isaiah, responsible for the Cyrus prophecies, was alive at the time of Cyrus as you imply.

Williamson, Hugh Godfrey Maturin The Book Called Isaiah, Oxford University Press 1994 ISBN 978-0-19-826360-9

 

[DOC]

Williamson, Hugh Godfrey Maturin The Book Called Isaiah, Oxford University Press 1994 ISBN 978-0-19-826360-9

Can you give a page number and exact quote in the book where it says the consensus of biblical scholars is that the so-called Deutero-Isaiah, responsible for the Cyrus prophecies, was alive at the time of Cyrus.

 

[rorylee]

dam, i would love to pull my dragon tongue out for a debate like this!!

 

[Lothian]

Can you give a page number and exact quote in the book where it says the consensus of biblical scholars is that the so-called Deutero-Isaiah, responsible for the Cyrus prophecies, was alive at the time of Cyrus.

p 35 "the consensus of biblical scholars is that the so-called Deutero-Isaiah, responsible for the Cyrus prophecies, was alive at the time of Cyrus"

also, I can't seee this extract here but others might and it could help.

 

[CriticalSock]

Oh I hope the Daniel prophecies come up! The ram with the one big horn that gets broken and 4 little horns replace it and all that. Magic!

 

[Elizabeth I]

Is it going to be a podcast or anything so that us poor deprived souls who live too far away could hear it too?

 

[Mirrorglass]

dam, i would love to pull my dragon tongue out for a debate like this!!

You just keep that in your pants, okay?

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

Do you have a source that the consensus of biblical scholars believe the so-called Deutero-Isaiah, responsible for the Cyrus prophecies, was alive at the time of Cyrus as you imply.

In addition to Lothian's reference, there are numerous citations in the Wikipedia article on Isaiah.

@TimCallahan:
Let me just add that I think it takes real courage to face the beast in his own lair, knowing what we all know of Biblical literalists. Props to you, and good luck.

 

[TimCallahan]

Hugh Ross and Reasons to Believe have set up the specifics of the debate as follows:

Ross will present his points, which are as follows:

1) Genesis 1 is predictive of science, since its order of creation events depicts that actual sequence of cosmological, geological and fossil record events (Ross is an "old earth" creationist).

2) Big Bang Cosmology is predicted by various verses in the Old and New Testaments.

3) The Book of Daniel was written before the fact and accurately predicts the future, including events in the life of Jesus.

I will rebut Ross, then outline my view of Bible prophecy as follows:

1) Any given prophecy may be true, false or too vague to call.

1a) Examples of false prophecies include those in Jeremiah and Ezekiel foretelling that Nebuchadrezzar would invade, destroy and conquer Egypt. This simply did not happen.

1b) An example of prophecy that is too vague to call is the Book of Obadiah, which predicts the destruction of the Edomites, but doesn't say when or by whom this destruction is come, nor the nature of the destruction.

2) If a prophecy is true, it can be so because it is a logical prediction, because it was made after the fact or that it was divinely inspired

2a) An example of a logical prophecy was that given by Isaiah to King Ahaz that the land of the two kings Ahaz was in fear of, Pekah of Israel and Rezin of Damascus, would soon be desolate. Israel and Damascus were making war on Judah to force Ahaz to join them in their revolt against the Assyrians. Tiglath-pilesir, king of Assyria was on his way to put down the revolt. Divine inspiration wasn't needed for the prophecy to be true.

2b) As an example of prophecy after the fact, in the "little apocalypse" or "Olivet discourse," Jesus predicts the utter destruction of the Jerusalem Temple. However, there is ample evidence that Mark, the earliest of the gospels, was written after the destruction of the Temple in the year 70.

I have yet to find a prophecy i consider divinely inspired (i.e. specifically predictive, before the fact of an event beyond human comprehension).

We will have a break, after which Ross will rebut my arguments. This will be followed by an informal discussion between us and possibly questions from the audience.

Hugh Ross and I have shared our arguments with each other. The whole affair is very open and transparent. From everything I've seen, Ross is an honorable man and a gentleman. So the debate should be quite civilized.

Reasons to Believe, who set up the debate, will be videotaping it. I'm not sure whether or not the Skeptics Society will also be doing a video.

 

[Simon39759]

We will have a break, after which Ross will rebut my arguments. This will be followed by an informal discussion between us and possibly questions from the audience.

So Hugh Ross will have the final unchallenged words?
Seems like a tremendous strategical advantages.

Hugh Ross and I have shared our arguments with each other. The whole affair is very open and transparent. From everything I've seen, Ross is an honorable man and a gentleman.

Wouldn't it be ground for Ross's expulsion from the creationist club?

Reasons to Believe, who set up the debate, will be videotaping it. I'm not sure whether or not the Skeptics Society will also be doing a video.

I hope the Skeptic society will at least distribute the video, I am really curious of the debate.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I ill be debating Hugh Ross, old-earth creationist, on May 1, on the subject of Bible prophecy.

Pearls, swine, same old, same old, and all that.

 

[TimCallahan]

So Hugh Ross will have the final unchallenged words?
Seems like a tremendous strategical advantages.

Since his last rebuttal will be followed by an informal, give and take, discussion, I will have a chance to rebut him there.

 

[Simon39759]

Yeah; but he will have the opportunity to interrupt and Gish gallop you.
That's fine, you said he was honest and polite; so that shouldn't be a problem. But honesty and politeness are certainly not qualities I generally attribute to Creationists, so I am suspicious.

 

[DOC]

p 35 "the consensus of biblical scholars is that the so-called Deutero-Isaiah, responsible for the Cyrus prophecies, was alive at the time of Cyrus"

also, I can't seee this extract here but others might and it could help.

I have a feeling Norman Geisler, Ralph Muncaster, Josh Mcdowell, and Dr. Hugh Ross do not agree with the consensus of biblical scholars, whoever they are.