Tarot cards, they are AMAZING!

[MikeSun5]

I think at this point the challenge is pretty much completely invalidated due to the delay between readings.

Crap. He must have drawn the Tower card.

 

[Olowkow]

No, none.

I think at this point the challenge is pretty much completely invalidated due to the delay between readings. Furthermore, for the same reason I have stepped down as a mod, I am probably going to be unable to moderate this particular challenge. Anyone object to shutting it down?

I haven't been following this, but why can't you just post what he sent you?

 

[Pup]

I haven't been following this, but why can't you just post what he sent you?

That's a good point. We have, what, six readings and ten volunteers? Seems like we could still proceed, having each volunteer choose which of the six is theirs or if none is theirs.

 

[arthwollipot]

Oh, but that'd mean I'd have to remember what the arrangement was. *whine*

 

[Aquila]

Tarot reading is so like Astrology,all so vague for anything to seem like it's speaking directly to you.

Please get rid of your cards while you're still a FULL DECK

Nit pick: You are right - both tarot cards and astrology readings can be vague and subject to confirmation bias, but the difference is that astrology is based on something real - the motion of the planets in the sky, and a Zodiac based on the earth-sun relationship, whereas with tarot, the relationship is between the cards and other events in space-time, due to the theory of synchronicity.

I'm not saying that either theory of correlation can be proven empirically - any evidence is entirely subjective, but these reports using astrology seem more accurate than for tarot, as far as timing is concerned, because of the accurate calculations of past, present and future planetary motion.

 

[Prometheus]

Nit pick: You are right - both tarot cards and astrology readings can be vague and subject to confirmation bias, but the difference is that astrology is based on something real - the motion of the planets in the sky, and a Zodiac based on the earth-sun relationship, whereas with tarot, the relationship is between the cards and other events in space-time, due to the theory of synchronicity.

I'm not saying that either theory of correlation can be proven empirically - any evidence is entirely subjective, but these reports using astrology seem more accurate than for tarot, as far as timing is concerned, because of the accurate calculations of past, present and future planetary motion.

So how is this any difference at all, then? Both have zero actual evidence of any effect whatsoever, so whatever basis is claimed for their respective theories is entirely irrelevant.

 

[Akhenaten]

Nit pick: You are right - both tarot cards and astrology readings can be vague and subject to confirmation bias . . .

Nit pick: You are wrong - both tarot cards and astrology readings are complete bollocks.

. . . but the difference is that astrology is based on something real - the motion of the planets in the sky, and a Zodiac based on the earth-sun relationship, whereas with tarot, the relationship is between the cards and other events in space-time, due to the theory of synchronicity.

Since wolves are real, then so is the story of Little Red Riding Hood?

I'm not saying that either theory of correlation can be proven empirically . . .

But you are trying to say that one 'theory of correlation' is more likely to be true than another. On what basis do you make this claim? Neither have any truth at all. Zero. None.

Please feel free to prove me wrong.

Is the story of Little Red Riding Hood more plausible because it's based on a real creature than The Hobbit, which is based on a made-up creature?

How do you arrive at a value for the plausibility of either of these stories, such that those values will be different?

- any evidence is entirely subjective,

Google 'oxymoron'.

There is no such thing as 'subjective evidence'.

. . . but these reports using astrology seem more accurate than for tarot, as far as timing is concerned, because of the accurate calculations of past, present and future planetary motion.

Drivel.

Predictions based on a deck of cards are without value and predictions based on the motion of planets are without value.

You are attempting to assign two different values to 'zero' and it just ain't so.

 

[Olowkow]

Nit pick: You are wrong - both tarot cards and astrology readings are complete bollocks.

Thanks, I had the pentagram all laid out, and was just about to summon the spirits of the almighty Akhenaten and the famed Sledge to deal with this whackamole game, but I could not find the eye of newt.

 

[MikeSun5]

astrology is based on something real - the motion of the planets in the sky, and a Zodiac based on the earth-sun relationship

The motion of cosmic bodies being real make astrology different from tarot how? There are people and animals depicted in the tarot deck as well as events from history. They too are "real." The tarot has sphinx and demons in it, the zodiac has a goat-fish and a centaur. So they both also include made-up stuff. I fail to see the difference between them.

these reports using astrology seem more accurate

To you they might, but not to me. Anywho, it's funny you mention confirmation bias and then give a perfect example of it.

 

[Akhenaten]

Thanks, I had the pentagram all laid out, and was just about to summon the spirits of the almighty Akhenaten and the famed Sledge to deal with this whackamole game, but I could not find the eye of newt.

Let's see . . .

Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.​

I'll bet someone's put them in the same jar as the toe of frog.

I'm always getting those two mixed up myself.

 

[Prometheus]

....

I'm always getting those two mixed up myself.

How? Eye of newt tastes nothing like chicken.

 

[arthwollipot]

Nit pick: You are wrong - both tarot cards and astrology readings are complete bollocks...

Predictions based on a deck of cards are without value...

While I agree with the dismissal of anything supernatural about tarot, I have to disagree with your complete dismissal of all aspects of tarot. Like I said early in the thread:

I believe that I can speak with a certain amount of experience on this subject, having been a Tarot/Rune reader for many years during my neopagan phase. I still have my cards and drag them out every now and again. They're anything but a game, in my opinion, but let me explain why before anyone jumps in.

First thing I will say here is: pay attention to athon. He's a really smart guy, and he's hit the nail right on the head from his first post in this thread.

Now.

The "power" of Tarot (such as it is) is the power of symbolism. I like to use a deck with detailed illustrations, such as the Rider-Waite, or my personal favourite Norse Tarot. Each card has a situation illustrated on it, and when you draw these out randomly, you make connections between them. That's what people do - they make patterns.

Each card has a carefully-constructed story associated with it - or rather, part of a story. You need very little assistance to link these independent story pieces together, and even less to relate it to something in your own life - especially if you approach the subject with an a priori assumption that it is going to relate to your life, which each and every querent does.

It has been my experience that the stories generated randomly by the Tarot have a tendency to illuminate, or clarify, someone's thinking on a subject. They're a assistant to decision making. Let me use an analogy.

When you flip a coin to make a decision, how many possible outcomes are there? Two? Wrong.

There are actually four possible outcomes to a coin-flip-assisted decision: a heads you like, a heads you don't like, a tails you like, and a tails you don't like. Flipping the coin helps you to decide what option you prefer by "forcing" you to take one or the other. How many times have you said "heads hamburger, tails salad", flipped heads and decided "you know what? I think I'll just have a salad," contrary to the result of the flip?

Tarot works the same way. By putting symbols in your way, you can identify options and make decisions that you otherwise would vacillate over, or be ambivalent about.

Tarot, like a coin flip, is a decision-making tool. Should I quit my job because I hate my boss? Nine swords suggests that you're overreacting to the situation. Five coins indicates possible financial difficulties. The Sun shows that there is a brighter future ahead. Okay, I won't quit my job.

Can the Tarot predict future events? It depends on what your definition of predict is. Certainly it can form part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I didn't quit my job because of what the cards said, and now the boss I hate has retired. Did the cards predict that? It depends on your interpretation. Certainly the "brighter future" would not have happened if I had ignored the cards and quit my job, and then I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But the fact that humans are pattern-makers, and the well-known phenomenon of confirmation bias, means that I will attribute more meaning to the cards than is inherent in the images alone.

 

[Akhenaten]

I believe that I can speak with a certain amount of experience on this subject, having been a Tarot/Rune reader for many years during my neopagan phase. I still have my cards and drag them out every now and again. They're anything but a game, in my opinion, but let me explain why before anyone jumps in.

First thing I will say here is: pay attention to athon. He's a really smart guy, and he's hit the nail right on the head from his first post in this thread.

Now.

The "power" of Tarot (such as it is) is the power of symbolism. I like to use a deck with detailed illustrations, such as the Rider-Waite, or my personal favourite Norse Tarot. Each card has a situation illustrated on it, and when you draw these out randomly, you make connections between them. That's what people do - they make patterns.

Each card has a carefully-constructed story associated with it - or rather, part of a story. You need very little assistance to link these independent story pieces together, and even less to relate it to something in your own life - especially if you approach the subject with an a priori assumption that it is going to relate to your life, which each and every querent does.

It has been my experience that the stories generated randomly by the Tarot have a tendency to illuminate, or clarify, someone's thinking on a subject. They're a assistant to decision making. Let me use an analogy.

When you flip a coin to make a decision, how many possible outcomes are there? Two? Wrong.

There are actually four possible outcomes to a coin-flip-assisted decision: a heads you like, a heads you don't like, a tails you like, and a tails you don't like. Flipping the coin helps you to decide what option you prefer by "forcing" you to take one or the other. How many times have you said "heads hamburger, tails salad", flipped heads and decided "you know what? I think I'll just have a salad," contrary to the result of the flip?

Tarot works the same way. By putting symbols in your way, you can identify options and make decisions that you otherwise would vacillate over, or be ambivalent about.

Tarot, like a coin flip, is a decision-making tool. Should I quit my job because I hate my boss? Nine swords suggests that you're overreacting to the situation. Five coins indicates possible financial difficulties. The Sun shows that there is a brighter future ahead. Okay, I won't quit my job.

Can the Tarot predict future events? It depends on what your definition of predict is. Certainly it can form part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I didn't quit my job because of what the cards said, and now the boss I hate has retired. Did the cards predict that? It depends on your interpretation. Certainly the "brighter future" would not have happened if I had ignored the cards and quit my job, and then I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But the fact that humans are pattern-makers, and the well-known phenomenon of confirmation bias, means that I will attribute more meaning to the cards than is inherent in the images alone.

my bolding


Whilst I'm fairly sure I understand what you're saying, the bolded bit is where we seem to diverge in our approach to making decisions.

I would no more toss a coin to make a decision than I would consult the tarot cards.

 

[arthwollipot]

I would no more toss a coin to make a decision than I would consult the tarot cards.

Are you saying that you've never flipped a coin?

 

[Akhenaten]

No, mate. Apart from anything else, I've played a lot of two-up.

I worded my answer poorly in that I didn't mean to imply that I thought your use of a coin toss (or of the cards) is wrong; simply that when faced with a binary decision I will use other methods to make my choice.

By far the most common method I use is what I'll call my 'rule of alternates' and you may notice me doing it here in the Forum with spellings. Every time I type 'skeptic' I'll use the spelling that I didn't use last time. Likewise, I have Strawberry and Chocolate topping in the fridge, and i'll alternate between the two of them every time I have ice cream. It probably says something about me that I can always remember my previous choice, but we won't go there.

I acknowledge that you've described the coin-toss as having four possible outcomes, and while I don't disagree with you, for me it's adding a level of complexity that I'd just as soon avoid. The nature of what I used to do required instant decisions, and the 'rule of alternates' facilitates that quite well.

The decision making that you describe which uses the cards, however, seems to me to be more complex than a simple binary choice, and the process that you outline would, to my mind, be served neither by a coin toss or by my rule of alternates.

Having said that though, I'll reiterate that I think I understand your use of the cards in reaching a decision, although I think perhaps it's more accurate to say that you're clarifying or confirming a decision that you've already reached, perhaps sub-consciously, through more conventional thought processes.

In essence, I think I agree with you, but I have an uneasy feeling that I'm still not explaining myself clearly, so please feel free to quiz me further if you wish.

 

[arthwollipot]

Having said that though, I'll reiterate that I think I understand your use of the cards in reaching a decision, although I think perhaps it's more accurate to say that you're clarifying or confirming a decision that you've already reached, perhaps sub-consciously, through more conventional thought processes.

You're getting the idea, yes.

 

[Akhenaten]

I've mentioned elsewhere, in fact, that I quite often think in pictures, so the truth is that I'm probably using my own internal deck of cards just as you might use the Tarot.

 

[arthwollipot]

Using an external deck means that you get images that your subconscious might not choose to feed to yourself.

 

[Akhenaten]

Again, I think I know what you mean.

Of course, I'd have to make a study of the cards to learn which meanings were applicable, just as you have, before I was able to use them like this. At the moment they're just pretty pictures.

On that note, and as something of an aside, I've seen a few Tarot decks that were absolutely beautiful to look at, regardless of the purpose for which they were used.

 

[arthwollipot]

The trick is to look at the situation depicted on the card, and try and imagine yourself in the same situation.