Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[BobTheDonkey]

Dr. Johnson, Professors Hampikian and Krane, and the other six signers of the open letter have not seen the fsa files, because they were never given to the defense, thus eviscerating the concept of discovery.

You imply that the cigarette butt is the only source of Raffaele’s DNA. Like BobTheDonkey, you are ignoring Raffaele's reference sample as a possible source of contamination. Only about 1 part in one million of his post-PCR reference sample would be enough to give a strong profile in any other sample it contaminated. With reference to the glove, you speak as if one can see DNA, which is untrue. Other sources for Raffale’s DNA also exist; everyone sheds skin cells all of the time. Raffaele’s fingerprints were found on the door, but not the door handle, IIRC. Fingerprints contain DNA. http://www.fdiai.org/articles/dna_extractable_from_fingerprint.htm

Elsewhere you overstated the problem of luminol with respect to DNA forensics. “A major advantage of the luminol test is the lack of significant damage to the genetic material, especially when modern PCR techniques are employed to analyze microsatellite DNA.”
Talanta 72 (2007) 896–913, “Forensic application of the luminol reaction as a presumptive test for latent blood detection” Filippo Barni, et al.

So, the lab waited 47 days to run Raffaele's reference DNA?

I haven't ignored it. I just find it a highly improbable source of contamination.

Besides, as your letter so aptly claims, the use of bleach would render all traces of DNA unusable. So once the lab was wiped down 1x (anytime between the reference run and the clasp run), there was no source of contamination.

 

[Alt+F4]

Raffaele’s fingerprints were found on the door, but not the door handle, IIRC. Fingerprints contain DNA.

Are you suggesting that the bra clasp somehow came into contact with Raffaele's fingerprints on the door?

 

[Fiona]

Dr. Johnson, Professors Hampikian and Krane, and the other six signers of the open letter

When I saw the letter only two people had signed it. When Fulcanelli saw the letter only two people had signed it. Did Dr Johnson tell you that 9 people had signed it?

Do you have a picture of this signed letter that you can post for us?

 

[Malkmus]

All you've done is show that DNA contamination is 'possible'. It's always 'possible', with any and all DNA evidence.

It's not good enough to demonstrate that it's possible in this case. You have to demonstrate that it's 'probable'.

This, you have consistently failed to do.

They wore sterile gloves. They handled no other items with those gloves before the clasp, changing them each time before handling a new object. Their passing it to each other wasn't a problem since since they were both wearing a pair of fresh gloves

From Nadeau's book:

After getting Stefanoni to admit she had written "too low" at least four times on her report, Bongiorno, Raffaelle's lead lawyer, turned to the crime scene video that documented the collection of evidence and pointed out Stefanoni's tennis bracelet on the outside of her surgical gloves.

"Is that your beautiful bracelet?" asked Bongiorno.

"Yes" said Stefanoni slowly.

Bongiorno then watched the video as Stefanoni moves to another sample. Her diamond bracelet is in the same location outside the glove.

"Look! Look! There it is. You didn't change gloves at all, did you?" Bongiorno gloated. "Did these mistakes happen in your lab, too?"

Stefanoni admitted her mistakes, but insisted her results were still valid.

 

[Alt+F4]

What I don't get is why RS's lawyers didn't try to get the unidentified DNA on the bra clasp matched to someone who handled it, worked in the lab or against another case they were working on. If it could be matched to any of those persons the contamination issue would have been solved.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

What I don't get is why RS's lawyers didn't try to get the unidentified DNA on the bra clasp matched to someone who handled it, worked in the lab or against another case they were working on. If it could be matched to any of those persons the contamination issue would have been solved.

Yes...but if it doesn't, the door swings the other way. If the other 3 traces match Meredith's flatmates, Raffaele has an even bigger problem.

If it's "unknown", then the likes of Halides can attempt to throw doubt and accusations of contamination.

 

[Alt+F4]

Yes...but if it doesn't, the door swings the other way. If the other 3 traces match Meredith's flatmates, Raffaele has an even bigger problem.

If it's "unknown", then the likes of Halides can attempt to throw doubt and accusations of contamination.

Good point but if the defense is 100% certain there was contamination I would think they would want to find the source of the other DNA.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Good point but if the defense is 100% certain there was contamination I would think they would want to find the source of the other DNA.

And that, my friends, is the rub

Apparently the Defense isn't 100% certain...

 

[Kermit]

Dr. Johnson, Professors Hampikian and Krane, and the other six signers of the open letter .....

You're avoiding the pending question: who engaged Johnson and under what terms. You've already confirmed that she "worked pro bono", so we know that she worked for someone. Who?

With reference to the glove, you speak as if one can see DNA, which is untrue.

???? Where the heck did you get that from?

Reread my post. I said I see some dark specks on the investigator's right forensic glove, which appear to be similar to others specks already on the bra clasp which is in the investigator's left hand.

Other sources for Raffale’s DNA also exist; everyone sheds skin cells all of the time. Raffaele’s fingerprints were found on the door, but not the door handle, IIRC. Fingerprints contain DNA. http://www.fdiai.org/articles/dna_extractable_from_fingerprint.htm

You once again are too fast for your own interests in googling then linking. Just like when you said that DNA can be extracted from dust and you provided a link, upon reading the link it said that the technique wasn't yet ready for forensic purposes.

Looks like something similar for your fingerprint story. Those Canadians are really smart people, but I don't see police forces extracting DNA from fingerprints. The issue, of course is the substance that the fingerprints are made with. If a fingerprint is made in blood, then of course the DNA can be extracted (if the blood belongs to the owner of the finger). If the fingerprint is a fingerprint made with grease from the skin, that's another story.

Let's assume that some barely detectable DNA from a fingerprint was deposited by Raffaele on the outside of Meredith's door. If it was already barely detectable there, how would it get to a clasp which is under a pillow, under the body of the victim, which in turn is under a duvet? At a strength greater than what the Canadians said is found in fingerprints? Did the DNA grow on the way from the door to the clasp?

Go back to the skunkworks and get some better talking-points.

 

[Kermit]

Bongiorno then watched the video as Stefanoni moves to another sample. Her diamond bracelet is in the same location outside the glove.

.
I guess that was the limit of Bongiorno's 10 minutes of glory in this trial, as the consensus was that Stefanoni didn't allow her to challenge seriously her forensic findings. If the diamond bracelet rides over top of Stefanoni's gloves when she works on one occasion, maybe it rides over the top of all of the forensic gloves.

I have some shirts of a particular brand/cut that insist on digging under my wrist watch.

 

[Ducky]

All this talk of bras and women sharing underwear has me distracted. Someone catch me up, why is Amanda guilty because of a cartwheel?

 

[Fiona]

Because Italians do not know that is perfectly normal behaviour for young american women in police stations to discuss brutal murders, ducky

 

[Chris_Halkides]

When

So, the lab waited 47 days to run Raffaele's reference DNA?

I haven't ignored it. I just find it a highly improbable source of contamination.
.

When were Raffaele's reference samples run?

 

[Ducky]

Because Italians do not know that is perfectly normal behaviour for young american women in police stations to discuss brutal murders, ducky

Well that's boring. Let's get back to the underwear talk.

 

[Fiona]

Well that's boring. Let's get back to the underwear talk.

In this thread, if you wait a few pages, that will almost certainly happen

 

[stilicho]

All this talk of bras and women sharing underwear has me distracted. Someone catch me up, why is Amanda guilty because of a cartwheel?

We're way past that! Now, it seems, Amanda is losing her sight in prison: http://partytow.com/e/2010/04/03/sex-killer-amanda-knox-is-­terrified-she-is-losing-her-sight/.

Maybe they'll prescribe some medical marijuana for her.

Her Seattle boyfriend adds: "I worry she is ­starting to lose touch with the real world and won’t be able to adjust when she gets out."

Many of us think she was having a tough time adjusting when she was out of prison.

 

[Fiona]

Past that? Do you have any evidence we ever get past anything in this thread, Stilicho?

The best we can hope for is a hiatus

 

[Alt+F4]

We're way past that! Now, it seems, Amanda is losing her sight in prison: http://partytow.com/e/2010/04/03/sex-killer-amanda-knox-is-­terrified-she-is-losing-her-sight/.

Maybe they'll prescribe some medical marijuana for her.

Her Seattle boyfriend adds: "I worry she is ­starting to lose touch with the real world and won’t be able to adjust when she gets out."

Many of us think she was having a tough time adjusting when she was out of prison.

Worst prison boyfriend ever. He doesn't even know how long she's been incarcerated.

In total she has been in prison for nearly two years

 

[Malkmus]

.
I guess that was the limit of Bongiorno's 10 minutes of glory in this trial, as the consensus was that Stefanoni didn't allow her to challenge seriously her forensic findings.

No, it was Massei, according to Nadeau's continuation:

"The jury has heard two different explanations for most of the DNA evidence presented," declared Della Vedova. "An independent review will be the final word."

"Rehashing all the evidence will not change its outcome," prosecutor Mignini said, opposing the request. Judge Massei, who always seemed to welcome opportunities to deliberate with his jurors, stood up and, without a word, smiled and led them into the chambers. Two hours later, he emerged to say, "I am denying the defense request to have an independent analysis of all the DNA evidence." He added, "The decision is not an indicator of guilt."

But in fact it was.

If the diamond bracelet rides over top of Stefanoni's gloves when she works on one occasion, maybe it rides over the top of all of the forensic gloves.

Stefanoni admitted her mistakes.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DNA and fingerprints

???? Where the heck did you get that from?

Reread my post. I said I see some dark specks on the investigator's right forensic glove, which appear to be similar to others specks already on the bra clasp which is in the investigator's left hand.

You wrote, "I believe those dark bits are not contamination of Raffaele's DNA from the cigarette butt," implying that DNA might be visible.

The link I cited on fingerprints was from 2003. I asked someone who teaches forensic chemistry, and the answer was yes, they do routinely recover DNA from fingerprints.