I think a line can vaguely be drawn at - When a law is based on some moral preventing an action that does not infringe on anyone's rights and harms no one. The only one that comes to mind is same sex marriage bans. I am sure others can fill in more.
-
Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more
Another strange arrest in backwards Middle East
- Thread starter Pardalis
- Start date
I think a line can vaguely be drawn at - When a law is based on some moral preventing an action that does not infringe on anyone's rights and harms no one. The only one that comes to mind is same sex marriage bans. I am sure others can fill in more.
HarryHenderson
Graduate Poster
But...
Again George Carlin: "This law's eternal, except for this weekend."
SnidelyW
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 486
Which small culture would this be?
My knowledge of Inuktitut has the greeting usually verbalized as 'chimo' and is often used with moving the left hand in a circle on the area of the chest over the heart.
Are you in Nunavik, Nunavut, or the Territories?
How many times have you been told to stop playing with Americans like that!?
Which small culture would this be?
My knowledge of Inuktitut has the greeting usually verbalized as 'chimo' and is often used with moving the left hand in a circle on the area of the chest over the heart.
Are you in Nunavik, Nunavut, or the Territories?
A small town called Tongue-in-Cheek, up in the NW Territories.
Not often enough, I guess.
It was definitely worth thinking about for me: it touched an area that still isn't entirely well defined in my thoughts. I think getting a month in jail plus a fine for kissing in public is excessive, but it does seem like only a difference in degree from any other public indecency law. They seem to be pretty much universal, even if the boundaries vary, and I'm not sure I've entirely convinced myself that ANY public decency law is unreasonable.
So I'm stuck in the position where I think that the "no kissing in public" law is ridiculous, but I can't exactly state that it is without the niggling doubt that I'm just doing the equivalent of pointing and laughing at all the people in the funny clothes. Lets say Lower Yurktistan had people coming from a place where habit X was really common, and we were totally against it because it has some highly negative connotation here. If we pass a law against it so people stop doing it, are we a backwards nation with zealous control of the population? I _think_ so, but it seems ohhhh so very tempting for many things.
Pardalis, don't drive on the right side of the road if you visit the UK, Australia, Singapore or India. Not only will you be breaking the law, you will probably crash and die very quickly.
Or, of course, you could also rate those laws "ridiculous" and get offended because they are not the same as the majority in the rest of the world, so really they should conform to your worldview. And you should get angry if they consider your POV rather silly, and prefer to keep doing it their own way. And then you should also remind yourself not to go to those countries because of this.
Yes, you are being that silly.
Or, of course, you could also rate those laws "ridiculous" and get offended because they are not the same as the majority in the rest of the world, so really they should conform to your worldview. And you should get angry if they consider your POV rather silly, and prefer to keep doing it their own way. And then you should also remind yourself not to go to those countries because of this.
Yes, you are being that silly.
So why did we not see threads such as this labelled "Another ... in the backwards West?" (As the UK was not alone in such laws and many are still on the books in many "western countries".)
Then you've misunderstood - what I was saying is that as far as I am concerned my country until just a few years ago was just as "backwards" about such things.
So laws against killing and theft should be struck from the books in the UK and other common law countries such as the USA?
So laws against killing and theft should be struck from the books in the UK and other common law countries such as the USA?
Darat
! Is the wink indicating a joke or have we forgotten that with or without the ten commandments, murder and theft are wrong?Fair enough. But, just as it was a good thing that the UK grew up, it would be a good thing if Dubai were to grow up.
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
So I wasn't clear
The default is illegal, with some countries allowing restricted use. My point was that it's extremely easy for one to find out that alcohol is a major potential source of problems for anyone in the middle east, and not taking the time to find out what, where, and how to use it legally would seem...prudent, if you plan on drinking.
cwalner
Philosopher
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2008
- Messages
- 6,104
Darat
As I made a similar comment, my answer is it is irrelevant. For many in the US (not sure about the UK) prohibitions against murder and theft are based on theological teachings. They believe that they are wrong because they are prohibited in the Bible. The fact that atheists also believe such are wrong for different reasons is completely irrelevant to thier world view.
In fact, the very word you used to desribe murder and theft, 'wrong' is a moral judgement. Even though your sense or morality is not based on theology, you are still opposed to such and want it to be illegal on moral grounds. It is just that over 95% of western culuture tends to agree with your moral view on that (even if arrived at by different means).
The fact is laws are about maintaining societal standards. This cannot be divorced entirely from what society as a whole deems right and wrong and as such will always be a decision based on morality. When you travel to different society, you must expect them to have a different set of societal values. Some if them may seem arbitrary and bizarre to you, but it is still the responsibility of the visitor to respect and abide by the values of the hosts. Or more succently put "When in Rome, Do as the Romans."
That is very difficult to argue, historically because we don't know how far back religion goes. However, I can say with the utmost certainty that theft and murder were considered wrong before the ten commandments were put down. I don't know where you stand, theologically, but to an atheist, the laws in any doctrine were written by man, with the opinion of man, using a deity to reinforce the significance of obedience. In short, god's opinions mirror man's, not the other way around.
Morality is just a personal standard of right and wrong and is not exclusive to religion. Actually, not one of the definitions of morals even mentions theology.
I can't argue with any part of this paragraph because it's pretty much what I have been saying since the start of this thread.
Last edited:
SnidelyW
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 486
So I wasn't clear
The default is illegal, with some countries allowing restricted use. My point was that it's extremely easy for one to find out that alcohol is a major potential source of problems for anyone in the middle east, and not taking the time to find out what, where, and how to use it legally would seem...prudent, if you plan on drinking.
According to the link posted below, the entire issue was a 'public indecency' offense, with the kissing and the alcohol consumption linked. This is from a Dubai newspaper which covers the region..
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/c...sing-couple-in-dubai-to-appeal-again-1.607960
So, the arrogant 'western' traveller who assumes they can carry on as they do at home does so at their peril, and in this case, extreme as it might seem, ignorance of Dubai law was rather punitive.
Here is a link describing the U.A.E. court system.
http://dubai.usconsulate.gov/dubai/the_uae_court_system.html
Last edited:
ingoa
Surfing on the relativistic brain wave
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2003
- Messages
- 494
I got arrested in San Francesco for public drinking. (one beer after 12 hours of walking in S.F. (very hot day @1992))
I got a fine for public drinking at Tresidder Union in Stanford University. [@1992]
TU Building: (http://tresidder.stanford.edu/maps.html)
x o x
xxxxxx
-
x denotes the building.
Location o: okay (back patio)
Location -: get a fine
eta: all locations are under open sky...
Last edited:
mijopaalmc
Philosopher
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 7,172
The Revised Washington Code on indecent exposure:
How backward!
How backward!
SnidelyW
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 486
Before visiting a country such as the U/A/E, a brief scan of a document like this
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61701.htm
will give one a general sense of the legal climate and what one should be aware of.
In the U.A.E. even the most learned of citizens are expressing some degree of confusion over the standard of public decency, as expressed in this op-ed piece by Sultan Sooud al-Qassemi, a non-resident fellow of the Dubai School of Government.
http://business.maktoob.com/20090000449606/Nothing_should_be_vague_about_what_s_indecent/Article.htm
Here is an article summarizing 'decent behaviour' in the U.A.E., published March 26th
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/general/law-is-clear-on-matters-of-public-decency-1.603027
I am wondering what the definition of a 'designated and licensed' place is regarding consumption of alcohol, and if a restaurant is considered such a place.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61701.htm
will give one a general sense of the legal climate and what one should be aware of.
In the U.A.E. even the most learned of citizens are expressing some degree of confusion over the standard of public decency, as expressed in this op-ed piece by Sultan Sooud al-Qassemi, a non-resident fellow of the Dubai School of Government.
http://business.maktoob.com/20090000449606/Nothing_should_be_vague_about_what_s_indecent/Article.htm
Here is an article summarizing 'decent behaviour' in the U.A.E., published March 26th
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/general/law-is-clear-on-matters-of-public-decency-1.603027
I am wondering what the definition of a 'designated and licensed' place is regarding consumption of alcohol, and if a restaurant is considered such a place.
Last edited:
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2006
- Messages
- 25,327
I think this incident reveals something far more worrying than weird laws. The UAE has always had odd laws, but because westerners bring in so much money, there has traditionally been a sort of double standard.
My cousin and his wife worked for a time in the UAE on a major construction project. They decided to get married before they went to make things easier, but it wasn't necessary. They had no issues with affection in public, and were able to purchase and consume alcohol without issue.
A semi-official blind-eye was turned to westerners, and there was a sort of unspoken agreement that as long as they didn't try to entice locals, westerners could do their own thing.
My cousin and his wife left primarily because that began to change. This incident suggests that change in continuing. UAE, once one of the most western of Islamic States, is becoming increasingly Fundamentalist.
My cousin and his wife worked for a time in the UAE on a major construction project. They decided to get married before they went to make things easier, but it wasn't necessary. They had no issues with affection in public, and were able to purchase and consume alcohol without issue.
A semi-official blind-eye was turned to westerners, and there was a sort of unspoken agreement that as long as they didn't try to entice locals, westerners could do their own thing.
My cousin and his wife left primarily because that began to change. This incident suggests that change in continuing. UAE, once one of the most western of Islamic States, is becoming increasingly Fundamentalist.
