Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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I don't think that the goal is to show that the trial or its conclusion were wrong. It's to try and show that anyone who doesn't agree with FOA is wrong. What they might be wrong about is not particularly important.

See the difference?

You're a bit mixed up there...

The goal is to show that the trial or it's conclusion are wrong - not by showing that the evidence is wrong, but with the idea that showing that anyone who doesn't agree with FOA is wrong and by association so is the trial conclusion.
 
You're a bit mixed up there...

The goal is to show that the trial or it's conclusion are wrong - not by showing that the evidence is wrong, but with the idea that showing that anyone who doesn't agree with FOA is wrong and by association so is the trial conclusion.


Not mixed up. The idea is the same. I'm merely encompassing the tendency of Knox supporters to try to disregard anything that is inconvenient to their message. :)
 
Sophistry

Sigh...yes...and then they were given the data and two months over the summer to review it.

In September of 2009 Sara Gino said that they did not receive the dates on which items were tested. This is essential information, inasmuch as it bears on the question of possible contamination. In other words the defense was still not given what they needed. You have been told this before, and you chose to ignore it. Some might call that sophistry.
 
Tagliabracci

I thought that Ms Nadeau was persona non grata in the FOA camp. Why is she suddenly quoted as authoritative and knowledgeable?

By the way, will Tagliabracci be summoned for the appeal? I am intrigued by this possibility since his original testimony was deemed trivial.

I have no idea what you mean by the FOA camp. There are plenty of people who doubt whether justice was done in Perugia who are (to the best of my knowledge) unaffiliated with any organization, for example, RoseMontague and Katy_did on this forum.

Frank Sfarzo did not think that Dr. Tagliabracci was an effective witness. I did not entirely agree with Frank's assessment when I first read summaries of his testimony, and I agree even less now. The defense expert witnesses were hamstrung by the lack of information that should have been provided by the prosecution, especially but not limited to the electronic data files.

This leads me to return to the subject of the Leskie case, in which I was overly conservative in my estimation of the utility of the fsa files. I contacted Professor Krane about this and he said that the certainty of contamination went up by several orders of magnitude when the electronic data files were released to him and he could analyze them.
 
Ms. Nadeau has a book coming out very shortly; therefore, now is a good time to examine her body of work.
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Okay, and your examination has decided that Raffaele's step-mother didn't swear, that the unsubmitted bleach receipt if it exists is from another date, and that the seven partners were the total, not just Italy.

And because of those findings, FOA-types and pro-Amanda posters are doing themselves proud with the sort of comments they're leaving on The Daily Beast site.

The problem isn't Ms. Nadeau's book. I think you're all doing practise runs for the translation of Massei's report. It seems that it's quite damning.
 
In September of 2009 Sara Gino said that they did not receive the dates on which items were tested. This is essential information, inasmuch as it bears on the question of possible contamination. In other words the defense was still not given what they needed. You have been told this before, and you chose to ignore it. Some might call that sophistry.

I'm much more interested in what the judge did when he heard this shocking revelation. (I assume that the defense did report this to the judge).

Did he order the release of the dates that the testing was done? If not, why not?
 
We've seen that her "double-translation" quotes concerning Amanda's diary appeared in Malcolm Moore articles in The Telegraph, and Nick Pisa articles in Sky News a year earlier and in more extensive and detailed versions.

Nick isn't immune:

Also in this version s a comical sequence a la 60-Minutes of the documentarian chasing embarrassed British journalist Nick Pisa who darts down a Perugia street after Amanda’s mother, Edda, lambasts Pisa for erroneously dragging Amanda’s younger sisters Deanna, then 20, and Ashley, 14 into his controversial story about them being tacky for wearing “short shorts” and posing in front of their sister’s home where the murder took place.

( Source: http://www.westseattleherald.com/2010/03/25/news/amanda-knox-documentary-not-what-we-signed )

That's from a Steve Shay article in the West Seattle Herald, the same newspaper sued for defamation by Mignini last year. I hate to spring it on ol' Steve but nobody in their right minds thought it was appropriate for Deanna and Ashley to pose in front of the cottage where Meredith was murdered by their step/sister.
 
Frank Sfarzo did not think that Dr. Tagliabracci was an effective witness. I did not entirely agree with Frank's assessment when I first read summaries of his testimony, and I agree even less now. The defense expert witnesses were hamstrung by the lack of information that should have been provided by the prosecution, especially but not limited to the electronic data files.

Can we get off the FSA Express train for a moment? The defence teams are not going to get any fresh new data they don't yet have. That much ought to be obvious since the motions filed in SEP 2009 were dismissed.

If your argument is that the only way to free Amanda is to get other unreleased information then you're just surrendering her to the Fates.

Moreover, there is no credible reason to believe that the defence teams have insufficient data to examine or re-examine the DNA evidence against RS or AK. (Or RG for that matter).

So what's Plan B? I think Frank's right on the point about Tagliabracci. I think they hired a "professional expert" instead of a more qualified one. They can't go back into court for the appeal by re-arguing a motion already rejected in SEP 2009.
 
I'm much more interested in what the judge did when he heard this shocking revelation. (I assume that the defense did report this to the judge).

Did he order the release of the dates that the testing was done? If not, why not?

They did more than that. The defence tried to get the whole trial thrown out because they didn't get the data early enough.

"Defence lawyers said that some of the documents for DNA samples that prosecutors say link the defendants to the case were not made available to them early enough in the case."

( Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amanda-knox-trial-resumes-in-italy-1787058.html )

The Sara Gino testimony came after the defence claims were rejected by the court and the trial resumed. One would have to think that if Gino's story was relevant then the lawyers would have included it in their objections in mid-September 2009. They simply argued (properly) that a legal procedure had been violated.

( Source: http://abcnews.go.com/International...a-evidence-amanda-knox-trial/story?id=8680234 )

She produces the missing dates argument on 26 SEP 2009, almost a fortnight after the motion to dismiss.
 
Nick isn't immune:

(Steve Shay writes)... Amanda’s mother, Edda, lambasts Pisa for erroneously dragging Amanda’s younger sisters Deanna, then 20, and Ashley, 14 into his controversial story about them being tacky for wearing “short shorts” and posing in front of their sister’s home where the murder took place.

( Source: http://www.westseattleherald.com/2010/03/25/news/amanda-knox-documentary-not-what-we-signed )

I hate to spring it on ol' Steve but nobody in their right minds thought it was appropriate for Deanna and Ashley to pose in front of the cottage where Meredith was murdered by their step/sister.
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You're right Stilicho.

Only persons with blinders on would believe that it's normal for the younger sisters of a murder suspect - even if she's innocent - to pose in front of the crime scene. It doesn't matter if it's for Gente magazine, any other PR use, or just a strange sort of personal souvenir, it just doesn't fit in.

Perhaps the sisters, especially the younger one, shouldn't be expected to be aware of these things. But the Knox-Mellas parents should be sensitive to this sort of indiscretion, and look out for the movements of the younger siblings.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cabre-photos-house-Meredith-Kercher-died.html

Edited by LashL: 
Removed copyrighted photo. Please see Rule 4.


 
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Is this supposed to be any more relevant than talking about Barbie Nadeau?

I was answering a question about why Nadeau is singled out. She isn't singled out. Nick Pisa is another journalist on the FOA ****-list. Any journalist (especially those who are not native Italian) who dares to suggest something other than Amanda's complete innocence is quickly targeted.

Remember that a big part of this thread, if not the entire forum, regards the media interpretation of the Perugia murder case. It is only AK's rabid supporters who have tried to make it into a soapbox for professing her innocence.
 
In September of 2009 Sara Gino said that they did not receive the dates on which items were tested.
The Sara Gino testimony came after the defence claims were rejected by the court and the trial resumed. One would have to think that if Gino's story was relevant then the lawyers would have included it in their objections in mid-September 2009 .... She produces the missing dates argument on 26 SEP 2009, almost a fortnight after the motion to dismiss.
Is this supposed to be any more relevant than talking about Barbie Nadeau?
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This is all interrelated, Matthew, thanks to the efforts of the PR campaign, which sometimes must feel that it scores points, like with national network television interviews for Edda and Curt, and also shoots itself in the foot, like with the unjustifiable photos of the sisters in front of the cottage.

Where does the Elizabeth Johnson report lie? Well, for me it's definitely part of the PR campaign. If there was anything of value for Amanda's case in the analysis that Elizabeth Johnson could have done, it would have been presented in court in Italy months earlier than when it appeared in the press. In fact, it appeared in the media (not court) only a few days before the end of the trial, when closing arguments were underway.

I quite like the comment made by poster "ez" below the The New Scientist summary article of the Johnson letter:

"I know they are specialists in their field, but were they asked to review the evidence, and did they have access to all of it? Just seems weird that they are disputing evidence in a case they don't seem to be involved with, otherwise, why send an open letter and not testify?"

Indeed, we still don't know who engaged Johnson, nor what data she was given to review, nor who gave it to her, nor what she asked for, nor what may have been withheld from her (by whoever gave her what she did study or glance at).

As Elizabeth Johnson well knows, not asking for and reviewing all available information is detrimental to making a sound conclusion. Here's implicit criticism of Elizabeth "Libby" Johnson for not making full use of all information which she could have used.



In her limited report, Johnson says of Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp: "The bra clasp was recovered from the floor of the victim’s bedroom, 47 days after the murder, and 46 days after the initial evidence collection at the crime scene .... Handling and movement of this sample has compromised its probative value. The laboratory results for this sample cannot reliably be interpreted to show that the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito was actually on the bra clasp at the time of Meredith Kercher’s murder, and it does not establish how or when this DNA was deposited or transferred."

Translation: "well, maybe there's a theoretical possibility that Raffaele's DNA came from contamination, a possibility which we can't really prove"

I don't see the significance of the 46 days. As the following article shows, DNA evidence is useful 19 years after the fact.



During those 46 days, the cottage was sealed, no intrusion was detected, the forensic technicians did not coincide with the days that inspections were carried out at Raffaele's place. In the other DNA thread which was set up, we saw that DNA on dust is not measureable for forensic purposes.

So, perhaps the reason that Johnson's report ended up being more of a publicity PR stunt than a useful probative test or analysis, is simply because someone realised that her conclusions wouldn't get much mileage in a courtroom.
 
"In her limited report, Johnson says of Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp: "The bra clasp was recovered from the floor of the victim’s bedroom, 47 days after the murder, and 46 days after the initial evidence collection at the crime scene .... Handling and movement of this sample has compromised its probative value. The laboratory results for this sample cannot reliably be interpreted to show that the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito was actually on the bra clasp at the time of Meredith Kercher’s murder, and it does not establish how or when this DNA was deposited or transferred."

Translation: "well, maybe there's a theoretical possibility that Raffaele's DNA came from contamination, a possibility which we can't really prove""

That is not a correct translation or insinuation.
 
I quite like the comment made by poster "ez" below the The New Scientist summary article of the Johnson letter:

"I know they are specialists in their field, but were they asked to review the evidence, and did they have access to all of it? Just seems weird that they are disputing evidence in a case they don't seem to be involved with, otherwise, why send an open letter and not testify?"

Indeed, we still don't know who engaged Johnson, nor what data she was given to review, nor who gave it to her, nor what she asked for, nor what may have been withheld from her (by whoever gave her what she did study or glance at).

I suppose we could always ask her who is paying her. I've stayed as far away from that open letter as possible because it's similar to those I've seen on the 9/11 kook sites. I don't care about this sort of stunt because it's so transparently dishonest.

They haven't visited the laboratory. They haven't written directly to Biondo or Stefanoni. Most of those credited in the open letter are unqualified. As with the 9/11 conspiracies, there is not a single professional organisation that has criticised the Rome forensics lab. There is not a single published audit report decrying its procedures. It was almost 3,000 posts ago that I asked Dan O for just a solitary critical newspaper article about its methods and scientific conclusions.

Crickets.
 
I suppose we could always ask her who is paying her. I've stayed as far away from that open letter as possible because it's similar to those I've seen on the 9/11 kook sites. I don't care about this sort of stunt because it's so transparently dishonest.

They haven't visited the laboratory. They haven't written directly to Biondo or Stefanoni. Most of those credited in the open letter are unqualified. As with the 9/11 conspiracies, there is not a single professional organisation that has criticised the Rome forensics lab. There is not a single published audit report decrying its procedures. It was almost 3,000 posts ago that I asked Dan O for just a solitary critical newspaper article about its methods and scientific conclusions.

Crickets.

No one is paying her. She did the work pro bono.
 
Translation: "well, maybe there's a theoretical possibility that Raffaele's DNA came from contamination, a possibility which we can't really prove""

That is not a correct translation or insinuation.

What do you think of Dr Johnson? That's only a smidgen from a forum that Kermit posted. Why do you suppose this alleged DNA forensics expert was shunned by the Italian defence lawyers? She had been involved with the Houston crime lab problems which were well-documented in the media and in state audit results.

Why wasn't she summoned to Perugia?
 
I seem to remember that this was important at the time. Need to look up the details and source info though.
 
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