The Marijuana Conspiracy

Your calling me condescending after all the posts on this thread?

LOL.

However, it is midnight pacific, so I will be offline soon to sleep for work, but I will be back tomorrow if you would like to discuss it further.

ETA: and for your information, I'm very much the skeptic, when it is merited. I get the distinct impression that you have me painted as a twoofer already.... Meh. That can be hashed out in discussion.

MolBasser
 
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Well, I'm basing it on your posting history. Take that as you wish.

I'll be back - I'm at work and have stuff to do, but essentially what I see here is a traditional skeptics stripping down of the claims in an OP. The OP is just a string of old crap from GlobalHemp dot org or Hemp R Us or whatever site(s) it was cut and paste from. Quite a number of posters opined throughout the thread that there's nothing wrong with fighting/arguing to decriminalize weed, but that it shouldn't be tied to this ridiculous trojan horse.

I think Kookbreaker's posts are a prime example of how we work on a lot of such wall of text posts. He tore down the points one by one in the areas where he apparently has expertise. I actually was going to post and ask if he was perhaps throwing out the baby along with the bathwater, but I noted that he never said, "... and thus, I'm totally against allowing hemp to be grown or imported..." He just attacked the CT type points one by one.

I do not pretend to have Kookbreaker's knowledge, but a few years of reading here and browsing there has taught me a few things:

Hemp is not YET commercially viable for a number of the proposed uses. Just because some lab in France has come up with a way to make a softer fabric out of the stuff, does not mean we could all be living under the rainbow wearing organic hemp clothing, short of about 80% margin on every item. The process is too expensive.

Nor does the fact that the Germans have discovered a method to separate the fibers by using heat/steam mean that it's green technology. That's in alpha thus far and has not been carried to full scale testing on large quantities.

The oil from the seeds is evidently quite viable, nutritionally, but only in the making of foodstuffs - you can't cook with it, and it tastes like crap so you can't use it on salads. The Chinese use it in "manufactures of" food in place of corn, soy, rapeseed and other oils. But only in small amounts and only in local markets.

Hemp is not illegal in China. They are experimenting with it all the time. And if it was capable of feeding 1.4 billion potential demonstrators or revolutionaries, believe me, the fields would be awash with the stuff.

The government didn't CONSPIRE to ban hemp. It banned hemp. It did so out in the open. Absent a single document proving that Walt Disney or J.D. Rockefeller or Prescott Bush (I'm surprised they haven't got him in there, somewhere) pushed this through for their own greedy purposes, why is it so hard to accept that it was just the U.S. puritanical government doing what the government of that and several eras so loves to do - messing with people's lives because they think they're morally superior.

I have no difficulty responding, "Because they're jackasses" to any number of meddlesome acts. Prohibition was right up there. As is the ban on hemp/marijuana.

Now - if you want to argue with the hands who think maryhoona is dangerous, go ahead. But the argument that hemp is viable doesn't hold up unless you change that to "potentially viable". Biomass fuels weren't cost competitive a couple of decades ago, too. Ergo, it is conceivable that some of the hemp research will yield results. It is a fast-growing plant, and the yield per hectare makes it attractive. But let's get away from giving it all those magical tree-hugging perfection qualities that the OP starts out with.
 
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Your calling me condescending after all the posts on this thread?

LOL.

However, it is midnight pacific, so I will be offline soon to sleep for work, but I will be back tomorrow if you would like to discuss it further.

ETA: and for your information, I'm very much the skeptic, when it is merited. I get the distinct impression that you have me painted as a twoofer already.... Meh. That can be hashed out in discussion.

MolBasser

Since you seem to have read the version of this thread from the world where Spock has facial hair I can't say if that is a fair equivocation.

I do know that in the real thread that I'm now posting in the majority opinion was that there was no clear reason to keep Hemp illegal but no real clear reason to believe it has any real use in the modern industrial world. It was made fairly evident that a lot of people promote it as some contrarian cultural paradigm without actually looking up the facts or applying any logic.

Just because it isn't as "evil" as it was made out to be doesn't mean it's some wonder plant.
 
I can say with certainty that I do not think Hemp should be illegal. The reason I argue about it in this thread is because the 'legalize it' crowd has been massively overselling hemp in a attempt to end-run the illegalization of marijuana or to at least make legalization more appealing. But the end result is that people are overselling a cash crop with very limited use and is at best a distant second choice in the fields it is listed in.

Their advocacy has already cost some Canadian farmers a fair amount.
 
It's hard to not be condescending when you're as awesome as me. Occupational hazard.
 
I can say with certainty that I do not think Hemp should be illegal. The reason I argue about it in this thread is because the 'legalize it' crowd has been massively overselling hemp in a attempt to end-run the illegalization of marijuana or to at least make legalization more appealing. But the end result is that people are overselling a cash crop with very limited use and is at best a distant second choice in the fields it is listed in.

Their advocacy has already cost some Canadian farmers a fair amount.

Thanks. Glad to see I presumed correctly.
 
Hemp is not the be all end all, but it is a niche market that could be effectively exploited, were the Drug Warriors hell bent on keeping an industrial plant out of the country for no good reason to let it be so.

Just because it isn't the new super cotton does not mean that it could not be viably farmed commercially. The hemp cloth stuff I've seen is reasonable and at no greater cost than other fibers if you take into account the boutique nature of the market they inhabit. Hemp seed oil could be used for a lot of things, biodeisel comes to mind, and while not commercially viable now, biodeisel will be at some point. At the rate of developement in cellulosic ethanol, the plant would be a ripe candidate for conversion to fuel.

Etc. No, it isn't the wonder plant, but it isn't useless or non-viable in the market either.

Which leaves us why it is still illegal. It is a conspiracy by the government (a group of people making a plan to do something no good is generally considered a conspiracy, I think you only need two actually), and this is the crux of the angst.

Leave the drug part out for now and focus why this non-drug, non-harmful plat is illegal. Who is behind this continued farce. And ask why they are behind it, and you get to why people get POed.

MolBasser
 
MolBasser,
We know why it's illegal. Several of us have said that we agree that it's dumb to have it thus. If you're looking for PaleoLand, it might be a different exit on the information highway. We're just arguing that countering government stupidity with urban legend stupidity is not the way to go. Blathering on about it being an ebil gubmint conspiracy is probably doing the cause more harm than good. People read that stuff and most of us go, "Arggh, not another one!"

They should remove the restraints on legitimate hemp farming, production, processing, etc... Let the industry sort itself out. The market will determine if it's viable or not.

Your definition of a conspiracy is not mine. The acts that were passed were passed openly. And, as I said, we know what their motivation was. Where's the conspiracy? If you've got evidence of the evil cabal planning this in secret and of select members of the illuminati making a killing on woodpulp futures, please provide it. If not, it's just another in the list of dumb things that governments do.

Oh, and the boutique nature of the product may mean you can charge a higher price for it because of its novelty value, but that novelty value will no longer exist when everyone understands that it is A) not ganja, and B) no longer illegal. If fabric made from hemp is going to compete, which is what's needed to make an actual industry industry (instead of cottage industry) out of it, then they're going to have to reduce the cost drastically.
 
MolBasser,
We know why it's illegal. Several of us have said that we agree that it's dumb to have it thus. If you're looking for PaleoLand, it might be a different exit on the information highway. We're just arguing that countering government stupidity with urban legend stupidity is not the way to go. Blathering on about it being an ebil gubmint conspiracy is probably doing the cause more harm than good. People read that stuff and most of us go, "Arggh, not another one!"

It is an ebil gubmint conspiracy. And yes, yours and mine definitions of ebil gubmint conspiracies are different. I just require them to be evil. Apparently yours requires space based beam weapons and nuclear controlled demolition or something. Just because it was passed openly (in the 30s, it was done so in the back rooms with false information) just widens the conspiracy to the congress people who were complicit in the evil effect of this law. Yes, sounds extreme on my part, but the people in the Drug War know where their bread is buttered and can't stand to have that threatened. There are other examples of evil conspiracies in gubermint that have nothing to do with aliens or what not. The recent court ruling striking down warrantless wiretapping (again) is one.

ETA: Warrantless wiretapping being the ebil conspiracy. Bad typing on my part.


They should remove the restraints on legitimate hemp farming, production, processing, etc... Let the industry sort itself out. The market will determine if it's viable or not.

Of course, but the Drug warriors are conspiring to keep this from happening. If they weren't, this common sense approach would have long been adopted.
Your definition of a conspiracy is not mine. The acts that were passed were passed openly. And, as I said, we know what their motivation was. Where's the conspiracy? If you've got evidence of the evil cabal planning this in secret and of select members of the illuminati making a killing on woodpulp futures, please provide it. If not, it's just another in the list of dumb things that governments do.

See above.
Oh, and the boutique nature of the product may mean you can charge a higher price for it because of its novelty value, but that novelty value will no longer exist when everyone understands that it is A) not ganja, and B) no longer illegal. If fabric made from hemp is going to compete, which is what's needed to make an actual industry industry (instead of cottage industry) out of it, then they're going to have to reduce the cost drastically.
Its not really that expensive. Have you priced hemp products?

MolBasser
 
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Let's agree to disagree on the definition of conspiracy, but please don't put words in my mouth, jokingly or seriously. Mine doesn't include any of the hysterical stuff the no-planers and CIT come up with, though. Conspiracy to me means that it's done either in secret or done with one stated intention while really aiming for another. They didn't do it in secret and they did what they intended to do - banned all cannabis products of any sort. Dumb? Check. Misguided? Check. Over-reaching? Check. Conspiracy? No.

As to prices. Nope. Average looking hemp t-shirts (not even all hemp - it's not viable unless blended) go for USD 17 to 22. You can get the same model (v-neck, short sleeved) by Hanes or Jockey or CK at 3 for $21.50. (And I could actually show you first-cost examples, but that'd be sort of overstepping a couple of NDCs, something I'm not comfortable doing.)
 
We can agree to disagree on conspiracy defs. No biggie.

The reason that you get those hanes for so little is they make 5 bazillion of them. Same price would happen if hemp had the same market share.

It is simple economics, and the hemp industry is (joking hyperbole following) under the boot of the Man right now.

Hemp really can't be deemed a "cannabis" product (well, I guess it could) because it has no (real) drug content. It is hemp, not cannabis. I know that is splitting hairs, but nomenclature carries meaning and inference.

And the stated intention of harm is to those people that would make an honest living selling hemp products in the name of the War on Drugs. It is a totally false and preposterous proposition.

MolBasser
 
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We can agree to disagree on conspiracy defs. No biggie.

The reason that you get those hanes for so little is they make 5 bazillion of them. Same price would happen if hemp had the same market share.

The problem is you really cannot process and work hemp as quickly as cotton. Ask a fiber expert or seamster who has worked with such materials, or a farmer who has to harvest the stuff. You aren't going to mass produce hemp with any effectiveness in the near future

It is simple economics, and the hemp industry is (joking hyperbole following) under the boot of the Man right now.

Incorrect. We are in a "Hemp Glut" here in North America thanks to the overpromotion of hemp as a cash crop in Canada. The stocks have not really gone away and so hemp is as cheap as it is going to get. But that is it. The was was shot. Farmers are not going to get burned again. You've got hemp at a bargain price right now, but it probably won't stay that way and there is little incentive to switch.
 
What is the infrastructure? What is the motivation to innovate if America continues the ban?

Seriously, if the market opens things will happen.

Do you have a reference to the hemp glut that I could review to bring myself up to speed on this Canadian travesty?

What do you think the motivation is to keep it illegal? Seriously, you guys hedge about it, but come out and say it. And then explain it in a way that doesn't make it sound like an evil plan to keep the plant down. Hyperbole seems necessary to get things moving here.

If it is such an obviously "no big deal" thing to you guys, what could possibly be the motivation to keep it down? It has NO drug value whatsoever, so we can all agree on that. If this is the case, then the Drug Warriors should not worry. So why do they?

MolBasser
 
What do you think the motivation is to keep it illegal? Seriously, you guys hedge about it, but come out and say it. And then explain it in a way that doesn't make it sound like an evil plan to keep the plant down. Hyperbole seems necessary to get things moving here.

And here I thought it was because legalizing a drug isn't exactly a great political move. Fighting against a perceived evil gets you farther, politically, than wanting to let "criminals" out on the street.
 
What is the infrastructure? What is the motivation to innovate if America continues the ban?

Seriously, if the market opens things will happen.

Do you have a reference to the hemp glut that I could review to bring myself up to speed on this Canadian travesty?

What do you think the motivation is to keep it illegal? Seriously, you guys hedge about it, but come out and say it. And then explain it in a way that doesn't make it sound like an evil plan to keep the plant down. Hyperbole seems necessary to get things moving here.

If it is such an obviously "no big deal" thing to you guys, what could possibly be the motivation to keep it down? It has NO drug value whatsoever, so we can all agree on that. If this is the case, then the Drug Warriors should not worry. So why do they?

MolBasser

The drug warriors would worry because they know the public is ill-informed and as far as they're concerned hemp=pot=dirty hippies. Remember that politicians rail against what is "perceived" as wrong not what really is wrong.

So, yeah, hemp got caught up in a huge "moral panic" and has been a casualty of that. That does not necessarily mean we should be making T-shirts out of the stuff.
 
And here I thought it was because legalizing a drug isn't exactly a great political move. Fighting against a perceived evil gets you farther, politically, than wanting to let "criminals" out on the street.

Its not a damn drug. Hemp is an industrial plant with NO drug value.

MolBasser
 
The drug warriors would worry because they know the public is ill-informed and as far as they're concerned hemp=pot=dirty hippies. Remember that politicians rail against what is "perceived" as wrong not what really is wrong.

So, yeah, hemp got caught up in a huge "moral panic" and has been a casualty of that. That does not necessarily mean we should be making T-shirts out of the stuff.

It certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't be making t-shirts out of the stuff.

In fact, it is quite irrelevant to the making of t-shirts.

This is what should be annoying critical thinkers. It ISN'T A DAMN DRUG. It is a fibrous plant.

There is no good reason to keep it off of the market. The conspiracy is the lies that the Drug Warriors promote to keep a perfectly harmless plant off of the market.

If that doesn't annoy you, well, I can't help you on that one.

MolBasser
 
No one is saying it is. You have gotten your answer, hemp got caught up in the ban of marijuana. We all agree it is a stupid ban, and more than a few think the ban on marijuana is stupid. What we are debunking here is the conspiracy theory that holds that hemp is a wonder plant that needed to be kept down cause it was just too awsome. That and be honest about the more ridiculous claims of hemp solving virtually every problem under the sun.
 
No one is saying it is. You have gotten your answer, hemp got caught up in the ban of marijuana. We all agree it is a stupid ban, and more than a few think the ban on marijuana is stupid. What we are debunking here is the conspiracy theory that holds that hemp is a wonder plant that needed to be kept down cause it was just too awsome. That and be honest about the more ridiculous claims of hemp solving virtually every problem under the sun.

No, it isn't "no one". "elbe" just parroted the drug line just a few posts ago.

And no one is addressing the real conspiracy of the Drug Warriors except to say, yep, they are keeping it down.

Hmm. Well, I guess that is accepting the conspiracy theory, yet no one will admit it is a conspiracy.....

The issue is that the Drug Warriors know that they cannot win, and that they must keep this secret from the public for fear of their jobs. They must keep the public in fear of drugs, no matter the consequence, because it is their gravy train.

Hemp is collateral damage.

MolBasser
 
Fine. THE VAST MAJORITY OF US! Look, when they banned cannabis, hemp became a victim. They banned an entire genus of plants, and no it isn't a conspiracy. You can bang that drum all day long but it doesn't make it true. It was done in the open, and while it may have been rather stupid to ban an entire genus...a conspiracy it does not make.
 

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