Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Fulcanelli]

Are you saying that the accuracy of Nadeau's reporting doesn't matter?

Accuracy matters, but it isn't the end, the end is truth...at least, that should be the aim. Do you disagree?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Are you saying you believe the receipt she describes does exist?

Do you provide any evidence for me not to? Aside from assertions...of course.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

you did miss something

.

Maybe I missed out something. What is Stefanoni's invalid claim? Maybe you should inform Judge Massei about it.

She said that dead skin cells don't have DNA. This is untrue.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

HIV test

For what it's worth; TLC aired an one hour documentary in the US last night "The Trials of Amanda Knox." Apparently it may have differed from the show of the same title that aired in the UK in January. TLC usually re-airs one-off specials like this a few weeks later, but it's apparently available from some streaming sites right now.

It's not going to change anybody's mind and there's nothing in it that's going to be new to any of the significant contributors of this thread (there is a short bit on a (false-positive??) HIV test that I don't recall being discussed here).

Mr. D,

Amanda was falsely told that she was (or in some versions, may have been)
positive for HIV, but she was later told that she was not positive. There are a number of news reports available. It is one of the more troubling aspects of her incarceration.

Chris

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Fulcanelli writes:

Accuracy matters, but it isn't the end, the end is truth...at least, that should be the aim. Do you disagree?

I agree that truth is important, but a reporter who serves the interest of truth will try to be factually accurate. Nadeau quoted from Amanda's diary as follows: "I think it’s possible that Raffaele went to Meredith’s house, raped her and then killed." When FOA contacted her and pointed out that this comment was not found in Amanda's diary, Nadeau said it was from a second diary also written by Amanda. Was that a truthful response? If so, Nadeau has not provided a source.

Do you provide any evidence for me not to? Aside from assertions...of course.

I have the video from Sollecito's apartment where the police made a point of holding various receipts in front of the camera so it was possible to read the dates on each of them. There was a pizza receipt from November 4, but no bleach receipt. On page 38 of her book, Nadeau wrote, "when Raffaele was arrested, police searched his apartment and found a receipt for Ace brand bleach, purchased the morning of November 4, 2007, at 8:15." Is this the truth? If so, I would like proof. Perhaps you could email Nadeau and ask her about this.

 

[stilicho]

It's not going to change anybody's mind and there's nothing in it that's going to be new to any of the significant contributors of this thread (there is a short bit on a (false-positive??) HIV test that I don't recall being discussed here).

There might have been some official documentation on the "HIV incident" but the primary resource is AK's diary entry and a Daily Mail story filed by Nick Pisa. I cannot locate the original page where AK's diary is repeated. A lot of the original information seems to be getting lost as the years pass although someone might be able to recover it for you.

She was allegedly told that tests had shown she was HIV-positive to get her to write down a list of her sexual contacts. It has no bearing on her guilt or innocence in Meredith's slaying.

 

[stilicho]

HIV "test"

It is one of the more troubling aspects of her incarceration.

Isn't that odd? We can both look at exactly the same incident with precisely the same sources of information and arrive at entirely opposite conclusions.

You call it "troubling" while I say it "has no bearing".

 

[Dan O.]

I have the video from Sollecito's apartment where the police made a point of holding various receipts in front of the camera so it was possible to read the dates on each of them. There was a pizza receipt from November 4, but no bleach receipt. On page 38 of her book, Nadeau wrote, "when Raffaele was arrested, police searched his apartment and found a receipt for Ace brand bleach, purchased the morning of November 4, 2007, at 8:15." Is this the truth? If so, I would like proof. Perhaps you could email Nadeau and ask her about this.

If there was really receipt for the purchase of bleach on the morning of the 4th, wouldn't that have been a significant piece of evidence to present at the trial?

The beginning and end of this bleach story was printed when it happened:

Republic - November 18, 2007 Page 13 Section: CHRONICLE
(google translation)

The team Ert (experts track search) on Friday morning, however, in his studio in Corso Garibaldi found two receipts proving that 's purchase (at different times, well before 10) as many boxes of bleach Ace November 2, the morning after 'killing of Meredith Kercher.​

Republic - 19 November 2007 Page 13 Section: CHRONICLE
(google translation)

Luca Maori, the lawyer for the student Giovinazzo, then swears that the receipts found by police in the studio for the boy (three in all and dated in time away from crime) have no importance in the 'investigation.​

If Luca were lying, we would have heard about the receipts in the trial. Who was the police spokesman that released this particular lie to the press? I don't believe the article gives that detail.

 

[lane99]

...
///Quote:
Your belief that Guede didn't open Meredith's handbag is presumably that there was no DNA found on the opening.///

No. It is because no blood was found inside it. The person who moved it had bloody hands and this is on the outside. It is not inside so far as I know. To me this can only mean it was not opened and searched...

I don't think it's a particularly good argument even if it was true that there was no blood found on the inside of the purse.

However we can leave that aside for the moment, as it appears you may be under a misapprehension. What makes you think there was no blood found inside? Because there are numerous reports that there WAS blood found inside.

So now that it would appear that Guede was rummaging through the victim's purse-after she had been attacked- I'd suggest it might be necessary to rethink your opinion on the relevance of this evidence.

 

[HumanityBlues]

For what it's worth; TLC aired an one hour documentary in the US last night "The Trials of Amanda Knox." Apparently it may have differed from the show of the same title that aired in the UK in January. TLC usually re-airs one-off specials like this a few weeks later, but it's apparently available from some streaming sites right now.

It's not going to change anybody's mind and there's nothing in it that's going to be new to any of the significant contributors of this thread (there is a short bit on a (false-positive??) HIV test that I don't recall being discussed here).

It's somewhat "balanced" (the quotes are on purpose) on the evidence and her guilt or innocence, though there are a few interviewees who come off in slightly unflattering light. I daresay this version isn't intended to address that anyway, but instead to note that despite all that's been written and said about Knox (and we even hear Knox's own words read aloud by her best friend), who Amanda Knox is remains basically a mystery.

Is it worth watching for most? I say not. From this thread, Knox's guilt or innocence seems to be an extremely polarizing subject; If you've picked a "side", you're likely to find many a fault with the documentary. If you're unfamiliar with the case, it's unlikely to engage you much as it's pretty lightweight on mystery, human drama or suspense.

I'm a little bit curious about these other versions some of which are apparently very hard on Knox (sayeth Mellas who has some bias of course) and why so many? Anyone?

Private message me if you want to to watch the British version of the documentary. I thought they were both just "eh". Interesting to see all the various characters. I'd probably say the British one was better.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

lane99 writes:

However we can leave that aside for the moment, as it appears you may be under a misapprehension. What makes you think there was no blood found inside? Because there are numerous reports that there WAS blood found inside.

I'm not aware that they found blood inside the bag. Two samples from the bag were subjected to DNA testing. The first was a bloodstain on the outside of the bag (Sample 166-Trace A), which turned up Guede's DNA along with Meredith's. The second was of some material found inside the bag, described as follows:

All'interno della borsa e stato rinvenuto un materiale granulare di colore giallo-marrone che pur non costituendo una traccia biologica nell'accezione comune del termine, e stato comunque raccolto e trattato per l'estrazione del DNA eventualmente presente in esso. Tale materiale e stato come traccia B.

This produces a clear Google translation:

Inside the bag was found a granular material of yellow-brown but is not a biological trace in the common meaning of the term, however, was collected and processed for extraction of DNA possibly present in it. This material was as trace B.

Sample 166-Trace B revealed only Meredith's DNA.

 

[Kermit]

To set the record straight, What I believe is that the Italian police used abusive interrogations techniques to try and break Amanda's story .... Maybe their actions that night don't fall foul of the law but their lies about it afterwards certainly should.

.
Okay, so to set the record straight, when you said the following ....

The Italian supreme court already ruled that the interrogation violated Italian law. I take it that you have no qualms about Italian authorities violating the law when interrogating suspects.

.... in fact, you now recognise that you were mistaken about the supreme court, and that your fellow readers and posters here aren't lacking in qualms as you had accused us.

 

[Kermit]

She said that dead skin cells don't have DNA. This is untrue.

.
I think we're all waiting to see the judge's report with what each expert says and how that's weighted or appreciated by the authoring judge (Massei).

In any case, what is clear from the discussion on the other thread about DNA in dust and dead skin is that it degrades, and in particular in the case of human DNA in dust, while it has been detected, the techniques aren't yet at a stage where useful profiling for legal purposes can be done.

Since the framework of this discussion is a legal case, I would think that we should situate the comments of the main players in that framework.

 

[Kermit]

We're all waiting for your revelation

Did you leave that folded sweater in the hall in Meredith's cottage?

See Kermit06LuminolEvidence.pps.ppt frame 17 "This looks like a folded, knitted sweater"
Look then at frame 66. Maybe your powers of observation will be enhanced and you'll also be able to then explain the bent fingers on frame 17.

This may still be too difficult of a task for you without a bit more help. Try turning the top photo left 90º and the bottom photo right 90º. If that doesn't help, maybe you should get down on one knee and pray for guidance.

Does it still look like a folded knitted sweater? Why is it then in the bath? Why does it not look at all like a folded knit sweater in the bath?

Maybe you aren't praying hard enough. Do you have your head down? Take a picture and show us what you see.

I don't know whether it's what Dan O. is referring to, but the bottom of both photographs do look very similar. The plastic thing in the photo on the right looks kind of like the finger and the sink? looks kind of like the folded sweater.

Do I win the prize?

I don't really know what the argument is here, but for what it's worth, the "almost looks like fingers" looks to me more like a pair of twinkies. The folded/knitted sweater looks like a shoe horn, or possibly a large clam.

.
Dan O., we're all still waiting for you to reveal to us the secret contents of the images. As per your request, I rotated slide 17 to the left, and slide 66 to the right.

 

[Fulcanelli]

She said that dead skin cells don't have DNA. This is untrue.

In this context, the context of forensic science dead cells leaving a full profile, they do not...so she is correct. She is speaking forensically.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Mr. D,

Amanda was falsely told that she was (or in some versions, may have been)
positive for HIV, but she was later told that she was not positive. There are a number of news reports available. It is one of the more troubling aspects of her incarceration.

Chris

You are talking complete rubbish. In her own diary she wrote that the doctors told her not to worry about it as it was almost certainly a false positive which would no doubt be show in the retest. As for the doctor, he did what he was bound by Italian law to do.

 

[Fulcanelli]

I agree that truth is important, but a reporter who serves the interest of truth will try to be factually accurate. Nadeau quoted from Amanda's diary as follows: "I think it’s possible that Raffaele went to Meredith’s house, raped her and then killed." When FOA contacted her and pointed out that this comment was not found in Amanda's diary, Nadeau said it was from a second diary also written by Amanda. Was that a truthful response? If so, Nadeau has not provided a source.

Ms Nadeau stands by her interpretation.

And you are a fine one to talk about how reporters should be factually accurate...like the Knox sympathetic US media has???? Funny, when media inaccuracies are in Amanda's favour, I see little complaint from you!

I have the video from Sollecito's apartment where the police made a point of holding various receipts in front of the camera so it was possible to read the dates on each of them. There was a pizza receipt from November 4, but no bleach receipt. On page 38 of her book, Nadeau wrote, "when Raffaele was arrested, police searched his apartment and found a receipt for Ace brand bleach, purchased the morning of November 4, 2007, at 8:15." Is this the truth? If so, I would like proof. Perhaps you could email Nadeau and ask her about this.

That's your proof...it wasn't in a video?

 

[Fulcanelli]

There might have been some official documentation on the "HIV incident" but the primary resource is AK's diary entry and a Daily Mail story filed by Nick Pisa. I cannot locate the original page where AK's diary is repeated. A lot of the original information seems to be getting lost as the years pass although someone might be able to recover it for you.

She was allegedly told that tests had shown she was HIV-positive to get her to write down a list of her sexual contacts. It has no bearing on her guilt or innocence in Meredith's slaying.

From Amanda's diary:

"Last night before I went to bed I was taken down to see yet another doctor who I haven't met before. He had my results from a test they took - which says I'm positive for HIV. This is by far the worst experience of my life. I'm in prison for a crime I didn't commit & I might have HIV. I don't want to die. I want to get married and have children. I want to create something good. I want to get old. I want my time. I want my life."

Lets add back in what the screen-grab actually shows eh?

"Last night before I went to bed I was taken down to see yet another doctor who I haven't met before. He had my results from a test they took - which says I'm positive for HIV.

First of all, the guy told me not to worry, it could be a mistake, they're going to take a second test next week.

Secondly, my head, at least last night, was swimming in itself. I had a raging headache because this is by far the worst experience of my life. I'm in prison for a crime I didn't commit & I might have HIV.

I don't want to die. I want to get married and have children. I want to create something good. I want to get old. I want my time. I want my life. Why, why why? I can't believe this."

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=30727&sid=94af0b0c61ff0c20850a12d087ca372d#p30727

 

[Matthew Best]

What are the odds of getting a false positive result in an HIV test?

 

[Fulcanelli]

What are the odds of getting a false positive result in an HIV test?

It happens. This is why people are always given a second test if they show positive. The chances of a false positive are also greatly raised when someone has herpes simplex (along with many other things), which Amanda had.

Factors Known to Cause False-Positive HIV Antibody Test Results

Anti-carbohydrate antibodies (52, 19, 13)
Naturally-occurring antibodies (5, 19)
Passive immunization: receipt of gamma globulin or immune globulin (as prophylaxis against infection which contains antibodies)(18, 26, 60, 4, 22, 42, 43, 13)
Leprosy (2, 25)
Tuberculosis (25)
Mycobacterium avium (25)
Systemic lupus erythematosus (15, 23)
Renal (kidney) failure (48, 23, 13)
Hemodialysis/renal failure (56, 16, 41, 10, 49)
Alpha interferon therapy in hemodialysis patients (54)
Flu (36)
Flu vaccination (30, 11, 3, 20, 13, 43)
Herpes simplex I (27)
Herpes simplex II (11)
Upper respiratory tract infection (cold or flu)(11)
Recent viral infection or exposure to viral vaccines (11)
Pregnancy in multiparous women (58, 53, 13, 43, 36)
Malaria (6, 12)
High levels of circulating immune complexes (6, 33)
Hypergammaglobulinemia (high levels of antibodies) (40, 33)
False positives on other tests, including RPR (rapid plasma reagent) test for syphilis (17, 48, 33, 10, 49)
Rheumatoid arthritis (36)
Hepatitis B vaccination (28, 21, 40, 43)
Tetanus vaccination (40)
Organ transplantation (1, 36)
Renal transplantation (35, 9, 48, 13, 56)
Anti-lymphocyte antibodies (56, 31)
Anti-collagen antibodies (found in gay men, haemophiliacs, Africans of both sexes and people with leprosy)(31)
Serum-positive for rheumatoid factor, antinuclear antibody (both found in rheumatoid arthritis and other autoantibodies)(14, 62, 53)
Autoimmune diseases (44, 29, 10, 40, 49, 43): Systemic lupus erythematosus, scleroderma, connective tissue disease, dermatomyositis
Acute viral infections, DNA viral infections (59, 48, 43, 53, 40, 13)
Malignant neoplasms (cancers)(40)
Alcoholic hepatitis/alcoholic liver disease (32, 48, 40,10,13, 49, 43, 53)
Primary sclerosing cholangitis (48, 53)
Hepatitis (54)
"Sticky" blood (in Africans) (38, 34, 40)
Antibodies with a high affinity for polystyrene (used in the test kits)(62, 40, 3)
Blood transfusions, multiple blood transfusions (63, 36,13, 49, 43, 41)
Multiple myeloma (10, 43, 53)
HLA antibodies (to Class I and II leukocyte antigens)(7, 46, 63, 48, 10, 13, 49, 43, 53)
Anti-smooth muscle antibody (48)
Anti-parietal cell antibody (48)
Anti-hepatitis A IgM (antibody)(48)
Anti-Hbc IgM (48)
Administration of human immunoglobulin preparations pooled before 1985 (10)
Haemophilia (10, 49)
Haematologic malignant disorders/lymphoma (43, 53, 9, 48, 13)
Primary biliary cirrhosis (43, 53, 13, 48)
Stevens-Johnson syndrome9, (48, 13)
Q-fever with associated hepatitis (61)
Heat-treated specimens (51, 57, 24, 49, 48)
Lipemic serum (blood with high levels of fat or lipids)(49)
Haemolyzed serum (blood where haemoglobin is separated from the red cells)(49)
Hyperbilirubinemia (10, 13)
Globulins produced during polyclonal gammopathies (which are seen in AIDS risk groups)(10, 13, 48)
Healthy individuals as a result of poorly-understood cross-reactions (10)
Normal human ribonucleoproteins (48,13)
Other retroviruses (8, 55, 14, 48, 13)
Anti-mitochondrial antibodies (48, 13)
Anti-nuclear antibodies (48, 13, 53)
Anti-microsomal antibodies (34)
T-cell leukocyte antigen antibodies (48, 13)
Proteins on the filter paper (13)
Epstein-Barr virus (37)
Visceral leishmaniasis (45)
Receptive anal sex (39, 64)

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/cjtestfp.htm