Hugo Chavez Loves Free Speech...

[Praktik]

Do we allow him to become like Stalin or do we warn people now?

ISnt there a fallacy for constructing arguments like that? I mean, couldn't we pick a regional example for our scary "he could become like"? When you say "Stalin" people think: THE MOST EVIL PERSON OF THE 20TH CENTURY WHO MURDERED MILLIONS AND STARVED MILLIONS MORE. Is it even possible for Chavez to become like Stalin? Hes got quite a lot of work to do and he's behind schedule!

I think so, yes. I think that the rise in crime and the deterioration in the rule of law since Chavez took power is not a coincidence, but is a direct result of his domestic policies (cronyism, the empowerment of Chavista gangs, etc).

I'd be interested to see some research on crime rates. Anyway what I was getting at with "regional factors" was Drug War related - is there any research out there as to the entities responsible for the kidnappings in Venezuela and the region?

Anyway, I'd be surprised if Chavez could be singled out as the lone factor in this purported increase in crime and/or kidnappings...

 

[funk de fino]

you bringin up evidence? for the stolen elections?

Strawmn, I never mentioned any stolen elections. You just get worse at this.

 

[funk de fino]

ISnt there a fallacy for constructing arguments like that?

No. There is a rule against changing someones post though.

 

[Praktik]

No. There is a rule against changing someones post though.

Oh well sorry, but its true, Stalin is kind of an emotional lever you're pulling and what I substituted in there is exactly what people think when they hear "Stalin" (though maybe some would oput him at "2nd most evil")..

anyway was just trying to illustrate how silly putting Stalin's name in the same sentence as Chavez was

EDIT: post above edited to get across exact same point.

 

[DC]

Strawmn, I never mentioned any stolen elections. You just get worse at this.

you answered to my post and claimed you bring up evidence........
and in my post it was about stolen elections.......

so you agree that the Elections are not stolen? then we agree

 

[funk de fino]

Oh well sorry, but its true, Stalin is kind of an emotional lever you're pulling and what I substituted in there is exactly what people think when they hear "Stalin" (though maybe some would oput him at "2nd most evil")..

anyway was just trying to illustrate how silly putting Stalin's name in the same sentence as Chavez was

EDIT: post above edited to get across exact same point.

If you look back at post it was only because some other posters have used the name. I have not used it at all prior to this. Don't let that ruin your fun though. It was to make a point, not compare him to Stalin.

Pretty ironic that one of the Chavistas used to have dictator in his username.

 

[Praktik]

Well let me humbly propose to the JREF that if individuals are looking to construct a scary hypothetical in which Chavez is to descend into evil, that regional (that is to say Central and South American) bogeymen are selected instead.

May I suggest Castro or Duvalier?

 

[funk de fino]

evidence?

here is one

Chavez is a tin-pot dictator who arrests or silences or kills anybody who dares challenge him and is driving Venezuela to pauper's status through idiotic collectivist economic policies. A blind man can see that.

Now, I know that your english has let you down again by the looks of it. When I say most, I mean most Chavez critics on here. I am not saying most people in the world or in Venezuela. The guys who really believe he is another Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot are in the minority. For now

 

[DC]

If you look back at post it was only because some other posters have used the name. I have not used it at all prior to this. Don't let that ruin your fun though. It was to make a point, not compare him to Stalin.

Pretty ironic that one of the Chavistas used to have dictator in his username.

pointing out that Simon Bolivar was a Dictator would have helped your case alot lot more.....

 

[funk de fino]

Well let me humbly propose to the JREF that if individuals are looking to construct a scary hypothetical in which Chavez is to descend into evil, that regional (that is to say Central and South American) bogeymen are selected instead.

May I suggest Castro or Duvalier?

Why should it be? It should not depend on where he is from, it should be decided on his actions.

 

[funk de fino]

you answered to my post and claimed you bring up evidence........
and in my post it was about stolen elections.......

Your post was more about attacking anti Chavez posters. The evidence part was not specific to the stolen elections. "Claims" was plural and at the end of your rant. Try again.

so you agree that the Elections are not stolen? then we agree

Why would you think I would disagree considering I never said they were stolen. Making up crap again?

I have seen no evidence that they were stolen. I have seen and heard evidence that the govt use voting history to persecute opposition voters and this can never be a fair or free election.

 

[DC]

it should be decided on his actions.

fights for the poor

 

[McHrozni]

I'd be interested to see some research on crime rates.

I'll start by posting this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/09/AR2006050901803.html

The article is from 2006, and things got a lot uglier since then.

Venezuela, a country of 26 million, has recorded an average of nearly 10,000 homicides a year since Chavez took office. The homicide rate, 37 deaths per 100,000 people, is more than double what it was in the 1990s.

"A lot of people voted for Chavez hoping that he would bring to order the problem of violent crime, and this didn't happen," said Marcos Tarre, a public security analyst in Caracas. "The government doesn't have a clear public security policy. Instead, there has been a very simplistic and erroneous manner of thinking that the problem is the responsibility of the military."

"It's a major change, because when I became a psychiatrist, the goal was to help people sort through their problems and have a happier lifestyle," Carvallo said. "I think that maybe in the last five years that has changed, and the goal is to try to teach the people how to survive."

Venezuelan murder rate is greater than that of Colombia - even after FARC is factored in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/3184293/Venezuelas-murder-rates-surpass-Colombias-under-Hugo-Chavez.html

When all things are considered it is probably true that misrule of Chavez is not the only thing responsible for this catastrophe. To say his misrule wasn't a major component in it, however, is absurd. In all likelihood, all other factors are minor compared to it.

McHrozni

 

[DC]

Your post was more about attacking anti Chavez posters. The evidence part was not specific to the stolen elections. "Claims" was plural and at the end of your rant. Try again.



Why would you think I would disagree considering I never said they were stolen. Making up crap again?

I have seen no evidence that they were stolen. I have seen and heard evidence that the govt use voting history to persecute opposition voters and this can never be a fair or free election.

evidence for your claim, that the gov. used em to prosecute?

 

[funk de fino]

pointing out that Simon Bolivar was a Dictator would have helped your case alot lot more.....

Not if other posters hadn't mentioned Simon. It would have made no point to my argument.

 

[funk de fino]

evidence for your claim, that the gov. used em to prosecute?

I said persecute and I have given you that evidence previously. Keep up.

 

[funk de fino]

fights for the poor

Steal private companies at the end of a barrel of a gun.

 

[Meed]

No, it's worse. It has more data and classes people as opposition or pro govt.

But is the data taken from elections or from the petition signatures (or somewhere else)?

So you agree that there is no real democracy in Venezuela as long as this database is used?

No. But I agree that the database is a bad thing.

Everytime there is a protest a govt would feel it is threatened? Should the tea partiers have been locked up or shot?

No... and action against the protesters is not even what we're talking about. Also in this case the government actually was under threat, as evidenced by the coup..

They are the equivalent of the Globo or RCTV.

I disagree.

You said there were the same laws in the US. Where are they? Where is Fox news supportive of Obama?

I didn't say "the same laws" I said similar laws. The laws in both cases aren't about being "supportive", they're about providing air time.

The equal-time rule specifies that U.S. radio and television broadcast stations must provide an equivalent opportunity to any opposing political candidates who request it. This means, for example that if a station gives one free minute to a candidate on the prime time, it must do the same for another candidate.

However, there are four exceptions: if the air-time was in a documentary, bona fide news interview, scheduled newscast or an on-the-spot news event the equal-time rule is not valid. Since 1983, political debates not hosted by the media station are considered news events, thus may include only major-party candidates without having to offer air time to minor-party or independent candidates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-time_rule

 

[DC]

Steal private companies at the end of a barrel of a gun.

aka Nationalisation.
a good thing mostly.

 

[DC]

I said persecute and I have given you that evidence previously. Keep up.

not for exactly what i asked for. but its ok. the list is a very bad idea. even the chavistas said so.