Donal said:
No, but I will let you know that's a "No True Scotsman" argument.
Attacking the kind of the argument, doesn't make it wrong.
This form of "critic", that just puts the argument in some unwanted method, is exactly what troofers do.
Just give me one single fact, that shows, that the SU was a socialist or communist state.
Its common in history that people proclaim themselves as someone they are not. National socialism for example has **** to do with socialism.
Donal said:
Oh, obviously any system will be corrupted if the people trying to run are incompetent, immoral, or both.
Yes, that the reason communism or socialism failed. ALL the people are at least incompetent, even you and me.
Donal said:
My point is saying "They're not real communists because I think they are dumb" is kind of silly.
Yes, if that would be the only thing I was saying, it would be kind of silly, unfortunately thats not all I said:
me said:
You can tell me, that communism doesn't work (I agree), but don't tell me, that these morons and retards, who after all these crimes of the Soviet Union really wave their flag, are what someone would consider to be true communists.
Got that? SU=tyranny and communism is the exact opposite of tyranny. Someone who wishes the SU back can't be a communist, because what they did was the exact opposite. Thats like saying someone, who wishes Nazi-Germany back, is a democrat.
dudalb said:
Sorry, but the fact that communism,whenever tried, has turned out to be to be total mess at best and murder machine as bad as anything the world has seen at worst, is so plain and apparent that I can't excuse the level of stupidity that ignores this fact and continues to drink the Kool Aid.
Well most "revolutions" were controlled by the SU (GDR), but I agree with you here. It doesn't work and I never said it would work.
But calling some stalinist idiots communists is just wrong, no matter if communism works or not.
dudalb said:
It does not matter what Karl Marx thought, really; his theories not only do not work in the real world they almost inevitable lead to tyranny.
Ok, but we don't judge acts by their results, we judge them by their maxims. Karl Marx thought he could make the world better, he was wrong, but this alone doesn't make him an *******.
dudalb said:
THis whole idea that "real communism" has never been tried just does not cut it.
If you want to talk about more democratic forms of Socialism, fine, but leave Marxism out of it.
EVERY form of socialism or communism IS democratic. Thats what is meant with "dictatorship of the proletariat". And EVERYONE in a communist state is a part of the proletariat, because there are no classes anymore. You know how we call it when all the people dominate?
And thats exactly the reason why it fails. People are dumb and selffish and if you give them the power, everything will fail.
dudalb said:
It's a totally failed ideology. After a while you just have to think that the ideology is basically flawed,and no amount of trying will make it work.
I agree.
dudalb said:
Yeah, their intentions might be good but we all know what the Road To Hell is paved with.
Thats all I was saying. But the intention to build up a new SU isn't anywhere near "good".
parky76 said:
I am friends with a very influential Communist in NYC, and he wants nothing to do with the 9-11 Deniers.
True communists or socialist doesn't have anything to do with this kind of crap. The idea of Marx wasn't that some spooky allpowerful conspiracy does what ever the **** it wants. He always argued against the system.
You don't fire the half of your employees just because you're evil. You fire them because some new machines are cheaper and if you wouldn't choose that way, you would fail at the market.
Most conspiracy nuts I know are typical right wing. Most conspiracy theories I know were made up by right wing scumbags. I don't think thats just a coincidence.
