Hearing it is just amazing though..the amount of cognitive dissonance going on. Anita goes on and on about how shes a skeptic and then completely tries to cover up her massive failure with excuses instead of admitting that she simply FAILED.
Personally, I think he's a bit optimistic, but I hope he's right. Her recent behavior around here suggests she's in some kind of upheaval. I hope that she comes through it OK and ends up as a skeptic. It would be ironic if she became a real skeptic only to find herself banned from this forum because of her behavior on the journey to skepticism.
When she acknowledges that the "VisionFromFeeling" part of her life is a bunch of nonsense as well, THEN I'll believe that Anita might be critically examining her own claims. Depends on how it all shakes out, though...she's paid lip service to being 'skeptical' all along.
When she acknowledges that the "VisionFromFeeling" part of her life is a bunch of nonsense as well, THEN I'll believe that Anita might be critically examining her own claims.
Indeed. The claims made under the name VisionFromFeeling are virtually identical to those made under the name Alenara. It's meaningless for her to call part of her life nonsense, when it was no different from her current life. I don't see any "journey to skepticism" here, she's simply trying to replace Alenara with VFF, while promoting exactly the same nonsense.
Apparently the book by Alenara is so hugely popular that Amazon does not even have a listing for it. How popular can a book be when Amazon hasn't heard of it?
Every journey begins with one small step, grasshopper.
There are so many ex-believer's stories in these very forums. Some people admit to having once said, thought, acted on very silly things. Some people here even defended those things once upon a time. Change is not only possible, it is starting to look probable.
Apparently the book by Alenara is so hugely popular that Amazon does not even have a listing for it. How popular can a book be when Amazon hasn't heard of it?
Every journey begins with one small step, grasshopper.
There are so many ex-believer's stories in these very forums. Some people admit to having once said, thought, acted on very silly things. Some people here even defended those things once upon a time. Change is not only possible, it is starting to look probable.
That's fine...but Anita saying she is now a skeptic and Anita proving she is taking a critical look at her own claims (ALL of them) are two different things.
It wouldn't be unexpected of her to say something that isn't necessarily true in an attempt to make herself appear legitimate. And this particular sea change of hers seems to have happened incredibly quickly.
I think it's fair to doubt her word until there is some evidence on the table.
That's fine...but Anita saying she is now a skeptic and Anita proving she is taking a critical look at her own claims (ALL of them) are two different things.
It wouldn't be unexpected of her to say something that isn't necessarily true in an attempt to make herself appear legitimate. And this particular sea change of hers seems to have happened incredibly quickly.
I think it's fair to doubt her word until there is some evidence on the table.
Indubitably. Without evidence, you have only doubt or faith. The latter isn't applicable here.
My comment was more on the climate of the JREF forums in general. It has helped people learn enough critical thinking to question their own beliefs. Hopefully that will be the case with Anita.
In accordance with carrying out a test of this claim in a manner that is ethical and within the constraints of laws and regulations that seek to protect recipients of any form of massage treatment that is intended for healthcare purposes, I have contacted the massage therapy board of two different states, outlining the design of this study as it was planned so far, giving the reasons for why I wish to conduct this study and asking for guidance as to how such a study, if allowed, could be designed.
For those who are curious, here is what I wrote to one of them, but don't read it and then say that I post too much about this.
--- Massage Therapy Council,
I have no training in massage therapy nor a license to practice.
I had an acquaintance who was suffering from devastating migraines. He had tried everything in conventional medicine as well as alternative herbal medicines and acupuncture and was not finding the relief he was looking for. Previously I had given a massage to a friend and what I did cured his chronic shoulder pain. That is why I decided to try to help this man with migraines.
After giving him a simple massage of his head, neck, and either side of the spine on the upper back, the man is convinced that what I did is responsible for his improvement in his migraine condition. He claims that he went from having a minimum of twelve migraines a month to having only two migraines a month since. His migraines would have also gone from lasting one and a half day each to lasting only half a day each, and no longer come with nausea like they used to. He had made no other changes in his treatment or lifestyle that could have been responsible for his improvement. He also says his migraines had been becoming gradually worse for the past several years and without any momentary period of improvement or relief. The improvement he is describing is considerable, unusual for him and unexpected, and he is convinced that the massage I gave him was the cause.
I remain skeptical but would love to test my method on other people to find out whether I may have a talent that could benefit those that suffer from migraines. I am not interested in pursuing a traditional education in massage therapy in which I would come to offer the same design of massage which any other practitioner could offer in my place. If instead I have a unique method I would want to verify that skill and to begin practice of that method.
What I do is, based on how I assume to feel the pain of the person, I design where to apply pressure, how, and for how long, so I am designing the massage based on intuition, or empathy. It does not come across as very scientific, but that is what I do and in both of the only two cases I have used this, it has resulted in significant improvement in the person and coinciding with the time that the massage was given. I can not assume that my massage was responsible however I do find reason to try again with more people to see whether this kind of improvement can always be observed, in which case it may be safe to begin to assume that I may be able to offer some real and useful relief to sufferers of pain.
I am asking you whether the laws and regulations of the state of --- permit me to advertise for migraine sufferers to participate in a study in which I offer them this massage of my design in order to evaluate its effectivity. I would involve a credible impartial third party in my study, which would include a licensed massage therapist to oversee all of my interaction with the volunteers to ensure that my behavior with volunteers is consistent with law permits, considering that I have no license. Volunteers would of course be charged no money and it would be carefully explained to them that what is involved is only a test and that I am not a licensed practitioner. Volunteers would keep a migraine journal in which they document the frequency and nature of their migraines, along with other relevant data such as symptoms and treatment. The usefulness, if any, of my method would be based on the documentation made by the volunteers, as that is the only way to assess migraines. And to ensure credibility, this material would be evaluated by the third party.
If the study reveals that my method is unreliable and that it does not seem to produce consistent improvement in the migraine condition of the volunteers, I would have no further interest in pursuing this. If instead the study reveals that my method is useful as a potential treatment option for migraine sufferers I would then undertake any required and recommended formal training in massage therapy, obtain a license to practice massage therapy and ask to have my method evaluated for approval for use.
But before investing in any such time, effort and money to become a practitioner, I would first want to evaluate my method by involving migraine sufferers in a study as described.
My question to you is, am I allowed to conduct such a study and how would such a study need to be designed to ensure it remains within laws and regulations that restrict massage practice? Since money is not involved, does that grant exemptions that enable such a study to be done?
I am otherwise a 27-year old undergraduate student in chemistry and physics studying to become a doctor of ---. I am originally from --- and residing in ---. I have worked three years in a nursing home and from that have some background in dealing with persons in a healthcare situation who suffer. I am inquiring with --- board of massage therapy also, but I am asking you ---. I know of a person --- who has migraines and who might be willing to volunteer for my study of my method, but I need to check with you first regarding laws and regulations that restrict the practice of massage treatment, even if offered at no cost and as part of a study.
My career will be in science, but if I were to discover that I have some unique talent in treating pain with massage of my own design I would certainly wish to establish that skill and take the time to make myself available to migraine sufferers, for whom treatment is otherwise inadequate and unreliable.
I would be happy to elaborate on the massage method I have used, and to provide you with more details about the design of this study as planned so far.
I am grateful for your guidance.
---
The response from each of the two state boards is different, giving the appearance that there is no general concensus nationwide.
One says, that due to the possible benefits to me, although not money, of conducting such a study, it is not permissible for me to do so, and suggests that I could teach my method to a licensed practitioner and have them evaluate the method, however I can not do so. They also suggest that I go through the training and obtain a license so that I can evaluate the method by myself.
The response from the other state board is very different. I am told that since I do not charge any money I may do the study and suggests that I do so under supervision of an M.D., or that I may proceed to have the study but that I might run into problems since I have no liability insurance and getting such insurance would be hard without having any training and license. They also suggest that I could involve medical students in this as a project, and I am informed of the legal restrictions that would apply surrounding advertising but that with the help of an attorney I may be able to put a permissible ad together. He is very helpful and also interested and would love to meet with me to discuss this further.
The method I use involves woo. More about what I do for those who are interested, omitting it for those who are not.
The first part of what I do is entirely woo, as I use my "vision from feeling" to form an image depicting the inside of the person where pain areas are highlighted in black. I then remove the black with visualization. This first part does not involve touch and is not restricted as massage is, but the only reason I would include this in the study also, is because it seems to trigger effect. So if it is useless, that could be verified in the study.
The second part of the treatment is also somewhat woo, since I use my feeling of a person (feeling done from a distance and not by direct touch or physical contact) to carefully design where to massage, in what way and for how long and in what sequence, in order to "balance out" the imbalance I am feeling so that balance is acchieved. The procedure applied seems harmless and gentle enough, but if done in the presence of a trained specialist then safety could be assured.
I would like to try the method on a few more willing volunteers who suffer from migraines, obviously there are ways to do so in a manner that remains safe, legal and ethical. With just a little bit more indication that seems to suggest I may be able to design effective, quick and easy massage treatments based on my intuitive sense of pain I will commit to the 17 month training and obtain a license and begin practice.
The study could say whether the visualization is useless or not and whether the treatment I use as a whole is useless or not. It is still a very fluid and hard subject to study, as the experience of a migraine is subjective and can not be objectively observed by a researcher, and the evaluation of effect relies on the honesty of the volunteers; results could be significantly skewed if volunteers report inaccurate results. Migraines are also not a solid condition to study; they are not easily categorized and are everchanging and influenced by a number of unidentified factors. Furthermore, the treatment provided would be different in every case, and is also difficult to categorize or describe.
However, it remains that if a significant portion of the volunteers do experience an improvement in their migraine condition, that coincides with the time of receiving this tested treatment, the statistics may begin to suggest that for what ever reason, receiving this treatment has a high probability of coinciding with an improvement in a future case. Statistics should lead the way.
I discuss this here since it involves some elements of woo, but I will not be discouraged from proceeding with this study, as if there is any chance that I may be good at offering treatment to those with migraines, they are entitled to it. This is not for my own personal benefit, financial or otherwise. Before anyone tells me to drop this simply because of their dislike of woo, read every word of this (link), for instance. That is what this is about. I have a full-time commitment to my professional life and any time or money I invest in this is a sacrifice on myself, but one we would all make if we could.
I discuss this here since it involves some elements of woo, but I will not be discouraged from proceeding with this study, as if there is any chance that I may be good at offering treatment to those with migraines, they are entitled to it. This is not for my own personal benefit, financial or otherwise. Before anyone tells me to drop this simply because of their dislike of woo, read every word of this (link), for instance. That is what this is about. I have a full-time commitment to my professional life and any time or money I invest in this is a sacrifice on myself, but one we would all make if we could.
As one of the people "entitled" to your migraine treatment, I have a few questions. These are the questions I would ask before starting any new treatment or being involved in any study:
How exactly does this treatment work?
How was it developed?
What are the side-effects? (Both short & long term)
What are the possibilities that it will make my migraines worse?
How long will it take to see results?
If you can not answer these questions, then you might not want to test on people. It doesn't matter if you can get around the law to do so. The law allows all sorts of alt med quacks to rip people off in any number of colorful and creative ways. That doesn't mean it's right. People are real. Their pain is real. Migraines aren't just some headache with conveniently capricious occurrences.
The reason why I was not too elaborate on the visualization part in my letter to the massage board is since the practice of visualization and what is termed "energy work" is not regulated by massage boards, so I did not inquire about something which I already knew they do not care about. Visualization and energy work is probably considered useless or entirely harmless.
I did however explain that what I do is woo by saying "What I do is, based on how I assume to feel the pain of the person, I design where to apply pressure, how, and for how long, so I am designing the massage based on intuition, or empathy. It does not come across as very scientific, but that is what I do". I also offered to give a more detailed description of what it is I do if they were interested, "I would be happy to elaborate on the massage method I have used", in which all details of woo would have been outlined.
It is simply that their regulations do not deal with the woo part. I had no intention of hiding the fact that what I do is based on "intuition", ie. woo, and that the method is not "scientific".
The second part of what I do is designed based on woo but ends up being a real and physical massage treatment, so this is not all woo and visualization. Massage itself is real and is capable of leading to real effects.
This claim is not based on my own belief. Here I am trying to apply critical thinking and an investigation to the belief of someone else; the man who received a treatment from me and who claims to have experienced a significant and coinciding relief in his migraine condition and he believes that what I did was the cause, and I am putting his claim to the test. Rather, I do not believe in his story and I keep asking him to confess to a lie, but rather than calling him a liar and convincing myself that my own disbelief equals that this is not true, I am remaining open minded and putting this to a test to obtain the answer.
Ah, see that's the problem right there. It is his belief and his experience. Making it impossible for you to know all the facts in this case. Have his migraines vanished before? (Most likely, it is the pattern.) Does he believe in energy work? Is there some history or pattern of a placebo effect following a new treatment? (This is very common. Which is why migraines are a cash cow to alt med.)
You might never know the answers to these questions. The man himself might not possess enough understanding of woo to be objective. (think of how many people believe in The Secret.)
However, this does give you a wonderful chance to be a skeptical investigator. Play the devil's advocate for a while, take the opposing view. If it wasn't your laying-on of hands, what was it? Let me know what you find, it will be a very interesting case.
This claim is not based on my own belief. Here I am trying to apply critical thinking and an investigation to the belief of someone else; the man who received a treatment from me and who claims to have experienced a significant and coinciding relief in his migraine condition and he believes that what I did was the cause, and I am putting his claim to the test. Rather, I do not believe in his story and I keep asking him to confess to a lie, but rather than calling him a liar and convincing myself that my own disbelief equals that this is not true, I am remaining open minded and putting this to a test to obtain the answer.
This part of your post is so typical of what we've seen before. You claim you're "putting his claim to the test" you "don't believe his story" exactly how are you going to test this? I'd like you to tell us step by step what you are going to do. We've been down this road with you many times in the past and the results, to put it mildly, have been disappointing. If you are truly "trying to apply critical thinking" I'd like to see some sort of protocol or even an outline posted by you.
The reason why I was not too elaborate on the visualization part in my letter to the massage board is since the practice of visualization and what is termed "energy work" is not regulated by massage boards, so I did not inquire about something which I already knew they do not care about. Visualization and energy work is probably considered useless or entirely harmless.
I did however explain that what I do is woo by saying "What I do is, based on how I assume to feel the pain of the person, I design where to apply pressure, how, and for how long, so I am designing the massage based on intuition, or empathy. It does not come across as very scientific, but that is what I do". I also offered to give a more detailed description of what it is I do if they were interested, "I would be happy to elaborate on the massage method I have used", in which all details of woo would have been outlined.
It is simply that their regulations do not deal with the woo part. I had no intention of hiding the fact that what I do is based on "intuition", ie. woo, and that the method is not "scientific".
The second part of what I do is designed based on woo but ends up being a real and physical massage treatment, so this is not all woo and visualization. Massage itself is real and is capable of leading to real effects.
Most likely you expected that the woo part (which you omitted) would put them on guard or result in a straightforward dismissal.
Using the term "intuition" or "empathy" is misleading, as your new claim has nothing to do with these terms.
What you were hiding is the woo part, which really is all there is to your claim.
You do not have a massage treatment in mind, massage is your trojan horse.
Massage can lead to real effects, but not the one that you have in mind.
You hid the woo, thus taking away from those massage boards the opportunity to prepare a proper and informed response.
This claim is not based on my own belief. Here I am trying to apply critical thinking and an investigation to the belief of someone else; the man who received a treatment from me and who claims to have experienced a significant and coinciding relief in his migraine condition and he believes that what I did was the cause, and I am putting his claim to the test. Rather, I do not believe in his story and I keep asking him to confess to a lie, but rather than calling him a liar and convincing myself that my own disbelief equals that this is not true, I am remaining open minded and putting this to a test to obtain the answer.
But, where is your evidence that you have applied critical thinking to his claim? You posted about the cessation of his migraines months ago, almost immediately after your 'treatments'....but you never attempted any data collection to either prove or disprove what you say he was claiming.
For example, has the cessation in his migraines continued since? Is he on any medications? Was he on medications at the time of your "treatments'? Has he kept a calendar of his migraine history before and after your 'treatments' that would substantiate or negate the claim you say he is making?
The most you have ever said is "Want affidavits? I've got 'em" and you were obviously lying about that, since those affidavits were never produced.
Why, if you were applying critical thinking to this man's claim, didn't you play devil's advocate and collect data that would either substantiate or negate the claim? You are a science student, and you are, as you've often said, attempting to conduct a 'scientific investigation' of your (assorted) 'abilities'. Surely you must know that supporting data would be key to that "scientific investigation"?
Since you didn't, your statement that you are attempting to apply critical thinking to the subject appears to be about as genuine as your statement that you have 'affidavits' to support this man's claim.
This claim is not based on my own belief. Here I am trying to apply critical thinking and an investigation to the belief of someone else; the man who received a treatment from me and who claims to have experienced a significant and coinciding relief in his migraine condition and he believes that what I did was the cause, and I am putting his claim to the test. Rather, I do not believe in his story and I keep asking him to confess to a lie, but rather than calling him a liar and convincing myself that my own disbelief equals that this is not true, I am remaining open minded and putting this to a test to obtain the answer.
You attach value to what you claim someone else is claiming. You are acting on it.
Yes, you believe it. In spite of your use of convoluted rhetorics surrounding that belief.
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