Congratulations to my fellow Democrats

[FlamingMoe]

I'm not trolling.

Yes, you are trolling.

Now prove that my point is stupid.

Why?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Yes, you are trolling.

Prove it.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Over ten years, the net effect of this bill will be a relatively slight reduction in the deficit. The goal Obama stated for this bill was to not increase the deficit (that is, he wanted it to pay for itself). It was never sold as an important deficit reduction measure--at least not directly. I believe the wording Obama used was something to the effect that he wanted a bill that wouldn't raise the deficit a nickel. The CBO estimates that this bill fits that criterion.

All of that is ~IF~ it meets CBO expectations.

And government programs always come in on time and on time, don't they?
/sarc

This is just going to push the deficit higher.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Will anyone please answer this question? What should happen to poor people who can't afford insurance? Who pays? All of us, or none of us?

There are provisions in the bill that are designed to make insurance affordable to everyone. (I believe the bill includes the insurance exchanges that will spread out the risk pool, government subsidies paid by taxes on high end policies, and the expansion of Medicare eligibility.) The individual mandate doesn't kick in until 2014.

The poorest of the poor already qualify for government subsidized insurance. This bill primarily addressed those a step above poverty level. (I'm not sure, but I believe it said there were subsidized plans available to households earning up to something like 300% of the federal poverty income--but I disremember the precise numbers at the moment. They're easy enough to find with a few minutes of googling.)

 

[WildCat]

Not at all. He claimed the CBO did accurate estimates based on a false assumption. The ~$500 billion is the result of their estimates, not an a priori assumption.

Can you detail how these estimates were derived?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

All of that is ~IF~ it meets CBO expectations.

And government programs always come in on time and on time, don't they?
/sarc

This is just going to push the deficit higher.

Not according the the best non-partisan estimate we have available.

What "expectations" do you think the CBO has? Do you think there's some kind of conspiracy going on within the CBO? Has the Democratic Party taken control of the CBO? Does the CBO "cook" their estimates to come in with numbers that will make the Democrats happy?

Do you know Elmendorf's history with the Clinton health care reform attempts?

 

[FlamingMoe]

Prove it.

All I can surmise from this trolling of yours is that you cannot, in fact, back up your stupid claim. Wouldn't it just be easier to admit it than keep trolling?

 

[Unabogie]

There are provisions in the bill that are designed to make insurance affordable to everyone. (I believe the bill includes the insurance exchanges that will spread out the risk pool, government subsidies paid by taxes on high end policies, and the expansion of Medicare eligibility.) The individual mandate doesn't kick in until 2014.

The poorest of the poor already qualify for government subsidized insurance. This bill primarily addressed those a step above poverty level. (I'm not sure, but I believe it said there were subsidized plans available to households earning up to something like 300% of the federal poverty income--but I disremember the precise numbers at the moment. They're easy enough to find with a few minutes of googling.)

I'm speaking to those who are against the government providing health care. Since they don't think the government should do it, I am just asking who should? What should happen to those people in lieu of government help?

 

[Shalamar]

Will anyone please answer this question? What should happen to poor people who can't afford insurance? Who pays? All of us, or none of us?

Presumably the same thing that happens now. They get sent a massive bill, they don't pay it, so the hospital eats the costs, driving overall costs up.

I could, however, be wrong.

 

[Shalamar]

I'm speaking to those who are against the government providing health care. Since they don't think the government should do it, I am just asking who should? What should happen to those people in lieu of government help?

Again.,. The same as of now. They accept charity, they go bankrupt, or die.

Just what the GoP wants.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Can you detail how these estimates were derived?

Yes. Table 3. The final figure in question is at the bottom right hand of page 11 of Table 3, and is actually -507.1 (measured in billions of dollars).

No, I will not copy and past the 11 pages that details where they got the figure. I'm pretty sure that would violate the JREF forum membership TOS.

Here's the link, again:
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/113xx/doc11355/hr4872.pdf

See Table 3.

 

[FlamingMoe]

Again.,. The same as of now. They accept charity, they go bankrupt, or die.

Just what the GoP wants.

The Republicans want people to die? Is this really how intellectually vapid your argument is?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I'm speaking to those who are against the government providing health care. Since they don't think the government should do it, I am just asking who should? What should happen to those people in lieu of government help?

I see. Why do you care? They had years in which to address this issue, and they didn't. So the answer is as Shalamar has said: they're in favor of the status quo.

The bandwagon healthcare reform proposals that the Republicans came up with (after the Democrats made this an issue, largely based on the result of the 2008 election) generally would not get us much closer to anything like universal coverage. (Some of them that I looked at, were focused on cutting costs and achieved this largely by further reducing access to healthcare.)

 

[Meadmaker]

It's not often I watch C-Span, but this vote was so anticipated and hyped, I decided I would watch it. I loved it when the major climactic vote was finally announced and the clerk read out, loud and clear, the title of this most historic bill:

"To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify the first-time homebuyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees, and for other purposes."

Parliamentary procedure gets weird sometimes.

 

[Unabogie]

The Republicans want people to die? Is this really how intellectually vapid your argument is?

Great, maybe you'll take a stab at my question?

 

[Tricky]

Presumably the same thing that happens now. They get sent a massive bill, they don't pay it, so the hospital eats the costs, driving overall costs up.

I could, however, be wrong.

You hit on an important thing. Many hospitals are forbidden by their charters to refuse emergency room patients. Hell, they are forbidden by the hippocratic oath. So the poor wait until their situation is critical, and they go to the emergency room, possibly the least cost-effective way of dealing with health issues. If we could stop this from happening, and hospitals having to eat enormous bills from people who could have been saved with a little preventative care, the cost savings would be equally enormous. And that's one of the ways universal health insurance will save money. As a bonus, people won't have to wait until they are emergencies to get health care. They can be helped long before they are in agony. But that's all touchy-feely stuff. Let's don't go there.

 

[Shalamar]

The Republicans want people to die? Is this really how intellectually vapid your argument is?

Well, The Republicans do seem to be strongly against Health Care Reform. They fought tooth and nail every step of the way. Since this is what happens NOW... What would Republicans rather have happen?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Not according the the best non-partisan estimate we have available.

What "expectations" do you think the CBO has? Do you think there's some kind of conspiracy going on within the CBO? Has the Democratic Party taken control of the CBO? Does the CBO "cook" their estimates to come in with numbers that will make the Democrats happy?

I don't believe in any conspiracy theories, not for more than a decade now at least.

I just have no faith in government operations. I predict that we will eventually hear that something "unexpected" gummed up the works and the costs skyrocketed.

I'm running purely on gut instinct here, and I know that's not even remotely scientific, but it's not like they've given us much of a good history.

The "oops" announcement is coming, just watch.

I'm sure Barack will feel real bad about it too.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The Republicans want people to die? Is this really how intellectually vapid your argument is?

Compared to what? Allegations of "death panels" and "euthanizing grandma"?

Even this evening, when the House was discussing the Republican motion to recommit the bill, a Republican representative shouted out "baby killer!" when Rep. Bart Stupak was explaining why he opposed the Republican motion.

Frankly, I think remarks like the one Shalamar made are far more appropriate to an on-line forum discussion than the kinds of remarks made by Republican leaders in much broader national forums.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well, The Republicans do seem to be strongly against Health Care Reform. They fought tooth and nail every step of the way. Since this is what happens NOW... What would Republicans rather have happen?

They'd rather not have the economy collapse when no one wants to lend America anymore money.