Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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BobTheDonkey used the phrase “vested interest,” which implies financial gain and which he can explain.
A vested interest can be financial, it can be public image, it can be power, it can be personal honour, it can be any number of things.

I think you're jumping too quickly to the conclusion that "vested interest" is only "financial gain".

With respect to discussing the door, the signers of the letter were indicating one possible route of DNA transfer from Sollecito.

They spoke in non-technical terms of Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp and in technical terms of the Double DNA Knife.

My question was: who "engaged" them? I admit that's an open term, because I and we don't know the terms and constraints of that engagement - was it a contract? was it a personal request? was it an act of charity (yeah, right), and if so, who did Johnson ask for data? what data? why didn't she include mixed DNA samples of Meredith and Amanda in her review?

Sara Gino told ABC news that the prosecution was not forthcoming with the forensic evidence, and this was months after the court order. If the defense can’t get the information, how could a third party?

Since the letter was published, four months have elapsed. Why hasn’t Dr. Stefanoni released the data in this time?

Chris
Are you aware if Johnson approached Stefanoni? Does Stefanoni know who a certain Elizabeth Johnson is?

If such request were ever to be made (because we all assume that Johnson never made it), wouldn't it have been better to do it through proper channels, e.g. the defence team (Amanda's) who engaged Johnson in the first place?

You make it sound like Stefanoni should be scanning newspapers and websites the world over, waiting for critique, and ready and willing to send data to any old Joe or Jane who wants to be a Meredith Kercher Murder DNA Expert.
 
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Well, his computer is an element in his alibi, until his computer stopped having human interaction, which was around 9 p.m.

Raffaele really doesn't have much to cover his activities until 6 a.m. the next morning, when his phone was turned on and he received his father's goodnight message from the prior evening. As part of one of the earlier iterations of his alibi, he had told police that he had received this message when his father sent it, around 11 p.m. the night before. So there goes another part of his alibi, and another part of his credibility with police (and the observing public).

In your world, innocent people are perfect, they never make mistakes, they never forget exactly what time some minor occurred. Do you believe that Jesus stands behind the innocent in interrogation rooms?

Or perhaps it's much simpler. Maybe you believe that innocent people are never arrested. Especially in a place like Perugia, where the cops have an incredible ability to pick out the guilty from the slightest of clues.

In this case, investigator Giobbi determined that Amanda and Raffaele were guilty from three incidents:

1. Amanda broke down the day after the murder when Giobbi said he was going next door to ask the neighbors if they had witnessed anything on the night of the murder.

2. When Giobbi asked Amanda to follow him into the cottage, she swiveled her hips.

3. When Giobbi contacted Raffaele, he was having a pizza with Amanda.

The last was the clincher that they had committed the murder together.

Can you explain how Giobbi came to the conclusion the couple was guilty without invoking magic or angels? :rolleyes:
 
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In your world, innocent people are perfect, they never make mistakes, they never forget exactly what time some minor occurred. Do you believe that Jesus stands behind the innocent in interrogation rooms?

Or perhaps it's much simpler. Maybe you believe that innocent people are never arrested. Especially in a place like Perugia, where the cops have an incredible ability to pick out the guilty from the slightest of clues.

In this case, investigator Giobbi determined that Amanda and Raffaele were guilty from:

1. Amanda broke down the day after the murder when Giobbi said he was going next door to ask the neighbors if they had witnessed anything on the night of the murder.

2. When Giobbi asked Amanda to follow him into the cottage, she swiveled her hips.

3. When Giobbi contacted Raffaele, he was having a pizza with Amanda.

The last was the clincher that they had committed the murder together.

Can you explain how Giobbi came to the conclusion the couple was guilty without invoking magic or angels?
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My world? Have I made any reference to my world? I don't know what you're referring to.

As regards remembering exact times in alibis, you didn't read my prior post where after listing several items which form part of Amanda's alibi, I said: "I would expect that my significant other would remember those events in more or less the same order and at the appropriate timing in the evening."

I think that police should be equally suspicious of alibis which don't coincide at all, as of alibis which fit too perfectly.

I made no reference in my prior post to Giobbi's supposed incriminating pizza or Amanda's swivelling hips, but rather the fact that Amanda's alibi includes:

- a heart-to-heart discussion with Raffaele about his mother's suicide, a suicide which he denied explicitly in one of his brief uncontested declarations to the court

- Raffaele's official alibi has Amanda leaving his flat between 9 p.m. and 1 a.m. (his unofficial prison diary version has her leaving the cottage a shorter period of time). Her alibi has her in the flat with Raffaele all evening and night.

- Amanda's alibi has her showering with Raffaele, and him cleaning her ears. He believes that happened on a prior night.

- The pipe break and the mop movements the next day have introduced differences in their stories (when the police arrived was Raffaele's place already cleaned up?)

- Raffaele remembered a phone call or a message from his father at around 11 p.m. Amanda doesn't include this (good sense, the message didn't arrive until the next day around 6 a.m.)

I don't think anyone really believes that Amanda was arrested for eating pizza or buying underwear.

From your list of Giobbi's supposed proof of Amanda's and Raffaele's guilt, can you tell us which points were used in the courtroom to arrive at the guilty verdict?

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What I don't understand is why you think that I believe that innocent people are never arrested. Have you caught any posts of mine on other sites which point in that direction? Here I've certainly never said anything of that sort.

Haven't you heard of Wenatchee?

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As for Jesus, I don't understand you introducing Him here.

Get a hold of yourself, man. You asked questions about spouses/significant others remembering or having conflicting alibis. I answered, with references to Amanda's and Raffaele's alibis.

You challenged us to prove that Amanda was the one who introduced Patrick's name in the 5 November 2007. We did.

The Giobbi comments may have been of interest back at the start of this case. However, what counts now is real evidence which was presented in court, and how it is contested.

I'm more concerned about conflicting alibis than pizza.

I'm more concerned about DNA evidence than swivelling hips.
 
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I guess I'm forever optimistic, Fiona. Just as if you speak long enough with someone who seems distant, you may suddenly find that they become lucid, I'm confident that at some moment of other, the overall body of evidence in this case will provide a common understanding and level of convincement in this case.

Good luck Kermit. I hope you don't lose your optimism in the face of contentiousness over pretty much EVERYTHING.
 
Good luck Kermit. I hope you don't lose your optimism in the face of contentiousness over pretty much EVERYTHING.
Well, I like the logo at the top of the page, which is the spirit to be in here: "a place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking ... in a friendly and lively way".

I personally like receiving constructive criticism, and adjusting my own arguments accordingly.

And if there are other sorts of posters here, who don't really believe their own discourse but make their talking points on a different remit, well, it's good for that to be seen by the wider viewing public too.
 
Well, I like the logo at the top of the page, which is the spirit to be in here: "a place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking ... in a friendly and lively way".

I personally like receiving constructive criticism, and adjusting my own arguments accordingly.

And if there are other sorts of posters here, who don't really believe their own discourse but make their talking points on a different remit, well, it's good for that to be seen by the wider viewing public too.

You might want to look at the 911CT threads.:)

So far the FOA crowd looks every bit as deluded as any other true believer bunch. Same tactics; focus on irrelevant details, ignore facts, quote mining and argument by innuendo.
 
The Giobbi comments may have been of interest back at the start of this case. However, what counts now is real evidence which was presented in court, and how it is contested.

I'm more concerned about conflicting alibis than pizza.

It's clearly important to you that Raffaele didn't remember exactly when he got a text message from his father. It's the kind of thing people lose track of all the time. Especially when a traumatic event, such as discovering a friend has been murdered happens later.

You are also in denial about the effects of coercive tactics during interrogation.
 
It's clearly important to you that Raffaele didn't remember exactly when he got a text message from his father. It's the kind of thing people lose track of all the time. Especially when a traumatic event, such as discovering a friend has been murdered happens later.

You are also in denial about the effects of coercive tactics during interrogation.
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1) ref. the text message. Actually, I'm being kind to Raffaele, as I consciously merge the text message with a non-existent phone call he said he got from his father at 11 p.m. In fact, he told police he had spoken to his father around 11 p.m., not that he had received an SMS.

Now, as I told you in my prior post, I'm not a stickler for exact times. But telling police about a phone call you didn't get could be a red flag for the investigators.

2) as for your alleged coercive tactics during his questioning, Raffaele's team has never made this suggestion, only Amanda's. With perhaps one of the most expensive lawyers in Italy, and many other lawyers and technical experts, I'm sure that if Raffaele could have taken advantage of the coercive police questioning defence, Giulia Bongiorno would have made sure that they would have proclaimed such a treatment.

But they didn't.
 
Kestrel said:
In your world, innocent people are perfect, they never make mistakes, they never forget exactly what time some minor occurred. Do you believe that Jesus stands behind the innocent in interrogation rooms?

No...in 'our' world (the real world) innocent people don't make as many mistakes as these two made.

You see, in your approach, typically from a point of sophistry, you isolate that set of mistakes at that set point in time from the rest of the myriad of other mistakes they have made throughout...

Mistakes like...saying my girlfriend left me and when out for the evening when she claims she was with me, or 'mistakes' like going out and eating pizza when my supposed friend is being remembered in a vigil, or 'mistakes' like cartwheeling through a police station, or mistakes like forgetting important phone calls, or mistakes like...

I can go on and on and on...

How many mistakes are acceptable and at what stage do they become too many for any reasonable intelligent person to accept?

Clearly, for you, they can make infinite mistakes and it's all good.

However, those of us who are bright, have capacity for logic and value truth as an ideal rather then pay lip service to it, realise that that it's pretty bloody obvious beyond all doubt that they are as guilty as hell.

For you, I've no idea what it takes for someone to be guilty of a crime...but somehow I suspect it requires little more then the absence for the accused of the status of being a white, middle class, American girl being tried for the murder of a foreigner in another country other then the Good 'ole US of A.

I 'could' be wrong...but we both know I'm not ;)
 
Kestrel said:
In this case, investigator Giobbi determined that Amanda and Raffaele were guilty from three incidents:

1. Amanda broke down the day after the murder when Giobbi said he was going next door to ask the neighbors if they had witnessed anything on the night of the murder.

2. When Giobbi asked Amanda to follow him into the cottage, she swiveled her hips.

3. When Giobbi contacted Raffaele, he was having a pizza with Amanda.

The last was the clincher that they had committed the murder together.

Can you explain how Giobbi came to the conclusion the couple was guilty without invoking magic or angels?

Except not one single word of what you've quoted is true. Can you provide one single quote from Giobbi to support the assertion by CBS? Perhaps, you didn't notice they didn't include one single quote from him in their article?:

But, if you can find a direct quite from Giobbi saying "I knew Amanda was guilty because..." Well bring it it on! You'd be doing far better then CBS...who can't.

I'm not going to be subtle here...I'm calling CBS outright liars. And, I will be only be too happy to provide the Administrators here with my personal contact details should CBS be willing to take any legal action, in fact, I invite it.

And while CBS is about it, perhaps they could answer the question of whether their main correspondent ('consultant') Paul Ciolino is a member of the FOA and was not in fact hired by them to launch a PR campaign on Amanda's behalf (he charges $50,000 a campaign) and has lobbied on her behalf in Knox fundraisers (public ones) since Jan 2009, has given out repeated misinformation in media interview, view the following:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/download/file.php?id=221

and

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/download/file.php?id=365

This is the best you can come up with is it Kestrel?
 
It's clearly important to you that Raffaele didn't remember exactly when he got a text message from his father. It's the kind of thing people lose track of all the time. Especially when a traumatic event, such as discovering a friend has been murdered happens later.

You are also in denial about the effects of coercive tactics during interrogation.

Traumatic? Do us a favour. It only become traumatic for him when he got caught.

What the hell did he care about Meredith, he'd only met her once or twice...he wasn't her 'friend'. The final time he met her he helped kill her. With friends like that...

Coercive tactics? How and when was Raffaele 'coerced' and what's your evidence for it? How and when was Amanda coerced and what's your evidence for it? Anything more then 'because she said so'? If so, if that's your lot, I'll remember next time I murder someone and the police catch up with me, anything I might say that's self incriminating, I'll just say 'I was coerced' and under the laws prescribed by Kestrel I should walk since it is so, simply because I said so. Right Kestrel?
 
Just to prove my point:

Support Amanda Knox fundraiser tonight and BOYCOTT Italian Products
Jan 27th, 2009 by chrisgoh1.
Amanda Knox fundraiser tonight:

http://www.amandadefensefund.org/

Posted by John de Leon

With University of Washington student Amanda Knox on trial for murder in Italy, supporters in Seattle are hosting a fundraiser tonight to benefit the Seattle native’s defense fund. Knox, 21, has been jailed more than a year in the Italian city of Perugia...

The fundraiser is from 6:30 to 9:30 p.m. Jan. 24 at Salty’s on Alki, 1936 Harbor Ave. S.W., Seattle. The event will include dinner and a silent auction as well as a presentation by Paul Ciolino, who organizers say is an American investigator who has scrutinized the Knox case. Suggested donation for the event is $100 per plate.

http://pressczar.com/?p=138


Who's the main consultant on the CBS story again?

I rest my case.
 
Magistrate's hearing

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Instead, Raffaele's most official alibi is that Amanda left between 9 p.m. and 1 a.m. If you prefer his less official prison diary, she wasn't out of the house 4 hours, but she did leave. This departure does not figure in Amanda's alibi.

Kermit,

I am not sure what you mean by his most official alibi.

This description of the first Magistrate’ hearing in front of Matteini (8 November 2007), is found on p. 210, Darkness Descending.

“Judge Matteini said, ‘There are several points, Mr. Sollecito, that differ between your version of today and your version of events as related on the evening of 5 November just three days ago. Can you explain whether you were with Amanda Knox that evening or not?’
Now it was make-or-break time. Matteini had posed the million-dollar question. The one Mignini had been waiting for.
His pay-off was unexpected, effectively an explosive retraction of his initial confession.
Raffaele said, ‘I’m sorry I told you that crap about not being with Amanda. We were together that evening.’
…But now on the key point of the night in question, he was sticking to her like glue again. Backing her up… ‘I can confirm that I spent the night with Amanda Knox.’”

Chris
 
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Kermit,

I am not sure what you mean by his most official alibi.

This description of the first Magistrate’ hearing in front of Matteini (8 November 2007), is found on p. 210, Darkness Descending.

“Judge Matteini said, ‘There are several points, Mr. Sollecito, that differ between your version of today and your version of events as related on the evening of 5 November just three days ago. Can you explain whether you were with Amanda Knox that evening or not?’
Now it was make-or-break time. Matteini had posed the million-dollar question. The one Mignini had been waiting for.
His pay-off was unexpected, effectively an explosive retraction of his initial confession.
Raffaele said, ‘I’m sorry I told you that crap about not being with Amanda. We were together that evening.’
…But now on the key point of the night in question, he was sticking to her like glue again. Backing her up… ‘I can confirm that I spent the night with Amanda Knox.’”

Chris
So, even though he can't make up his mind where he (and by extension, she) was that night...we should just believe the last thing he tells us?

Again: If I tell you my name is Bob, then tell you what I'd said before is bollocks, then tell you that I was lying the second time and my name really is Bob...am I still credible?

Not surprisingly, his rendition of the evening's events does not match hers...not in a few little details, but in pretty major parts. She remembers a shower, he doesn't. He remembers a phone call/text from his father (that didn't reach his phone), she doesn't.
 
I'm not going to be subtle here...I'm calling CBS outright liars. And, I will be only be too happy to provide the Administrators here with my personal contact details should CBS be willing to take any legal action, in fact, I invite it.

Not to cut too fine a point but it's not CBS who are the liars but the producers of the shows featuring charlatans like Paul Ciolino. AFAIK, they present those shows only as entertainment and not as news or necessarily factual. I believe they place disclaimers in the credits somewhere.
 
Kermit,

I am not sure what you mean by his most official alibi.

This description of the first Magistrate’ hearing in front of Matteini (8 November 2007), is found on p. 210, Darkness Descending.

“Judge Matteini said, ‘There are several points, Mr. Sollecito, that differ between your version of today and your version of events as related on the evening of 5 November just three days ago. Can you explain whether you were with Amanda Knox that evening or not?’
Now it was make-or-break time. Matteini had posed the million-dollar question. The one Mignini had been waiting for.
His pay-off was unexpected, effectively an explosive retraction of his initial confession.
Raffaele said, ‘I’m sorry I told you that crap about not being with Amanda. We were together that evening.’
…But now on the key point of the night in question, he was sticking to her like glue again. Backing her up… ‘I can confirm that I spent the night with Amanda Knox.’”

Chris

So he's a confirmed liar. Thanks for playing.
 
If the story about Amanda going out that evening was crap, why did he tell it on the 5th? And why repeat a variation in a prison diary?
 
Kermit,

I am not sure what you mean by his most official alibi.

This description of the first Magistrate’ hearing in front of Matteini (8 November 2007), is found on p. 210, Darkness Descending.

“Judge Matteini said, ‘There are several points, Mr. Sollecito, that differ between your version of today and your version of events as related on the evening of 5 November just three days ago. Can you explain whether you were with Amanda Knox that evening or not?’
Now it was make-or-break time. Matteini had posed the million-dollar question. The one Mignini had been waiting for.
His pay-off was unexpected, effectively an explosive retraction of his initial confession.
Raffaele said, ‘I’m sorry I told you that crap about not being with Amanda. We were together that evening.’
…But now on the key point of the night in question, he was sticking to her like glue again. Backing her up… ‘I can confirm that I spent the night with Amanda Knox.’”

Chris

But it's wrong. The author of the book has his events completely confused. And that's not surprising since he was never in Matteini's court room, it was behind closed doors. Raffaele never gave Amanda an alibi after he withdraw it FACT.

Let's take this:

RAFFAELE IN THE FIRST DAYS AFTER HIS ARREST, NOV 17, 2007

Date: November 17, 2007

Raffaele Sollecito, 23, spent his first 10 days of prison searching for precise memories. Memories that are returning after the fog provoked by the hashish. He saw the television news on Thursday evening. And yesterday morning, when one of his lawyers, Tiziano Tedeschi, arrived at the prison, he asked him suddenly: "What do I have to do with that knife?" It was the knife which contained DNA traces of poor Meredith, and of Amanda, who is accused like Raffaele of homicide. "That huge knife was already at my house when I rented it. I never used that knife. Amanda used it when cutting onions." His own two pocket knives have also been confiscated; he has been carrying them since he was 13, and changed them to match his outfits. "But it's unbelievable," he said when he heard that the knife had been confiscated by the police, "that Amanda was going around with such a big kitchen knife, I simply can't believe it." A thousand words, in these difficult days, have been exchanged with his father, his father's new wife, his educators and his lawyers. Precise memories are beginning to return. "On that night, when Amanda came home, I remember having touched her hand. It was cold, like it was when she would come home at night after working at the pub. But for now I can't remember anything else. And if I can't remember, why should I tell a lie? The evening before Meredith died Amanda brought me make-up stuff for Halloween. She wanted to go to a disco, but I'm not 15 any more and I preferred a quiet pub. But Amanda is American, and for her Halloween is a really important night." Raffaele should have been going to Milan during those days. "Right after my degree, there would have been a party and a lunch with relatives and friends, and then in the evening, a romantic restaurant just for Amanda and me. Then, with my father, I would have left right away for Milan to enroll in a master's at Bocconi. My father inundated me with phone calls during those last days of freedom, sometimes even four a day. He wanted me to study and work on my (undergraduate) thesis. I had only written a draft. I was also calling home. One evening I asked for a recipe: I wanted to make a risotto for Amanda." Also childhood memories are becoming part of the defense. "I've always been scared of blood, since I was little. If I see blood I feel sick. I had barely spotted a trace of blood in the bathroom that morning and I had to step back. If I had gone into Meredith's room then I'd have died on the spot." The boy from Giovinazzo has destroyed Amanda's alibi, but he certainly doesn't forget the days spent with her. "She was my first real conquest. As a boy I was fat, everyone called me Cicciolone. I would look at myself in the mirror and I didn't like myself. I told myself there was only one thing to do: the gym, and more of the gym. I changed, and I felt better. When Amanda got together with me, I was very jealous. That's why I wanted her to sleep over at my place, so no one else could be looking at her. It was my first really important story." Even in a cell, Raffaele wants to be a good kid. "I asked for rags to clean up the bathroom. And even the bars. They're dusty."

trans: Thoughtful

REPUBBLICA

Raffaele in the above is still claiming Amanda left him that evening and came home late in the night.

Let's also look at Raffaele via his lawyers to the High Court in April 2008. This from Frank Sfarzo back in a time when he was still neutral:

Raffaele:
The clues against Amanda have been arbitrarily transferred to me on the erroneous assumption that we must have been together that evening.
Supreme Court:
For the same reasons given above, we can exclude that clues against Knox have been arbitrarily transferred to you.

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=1173#p1173

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/04/raffaele-q-and-with-supreme-court.html
 
So he's a confirmed liar. Thanks for playing.


The author has completely got himself in a muddle...for a start, this line from Raffale "‘I’m sorry I told you that crap" was the line he gave to POLICE on the night of November 5th, not to any court room. Raffaele didn't say any of the stuff Darkness Decending claims he said to the court. He didn't even address Matteini's court. He had fallen on his right to silence.

Unfortunately, the authour of the book got most of his research for his book from newspapers and books. He didn't attend hearings, nor does he speak Italian.
 
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