Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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alibi

How is it that the DNA evidence is correct when exonerating Patrick and convicting RG but is contaminated when identifying Meredith, AK or RS?

My understanding is that Patrick also had a strong alibi. And thank you for bringing up the fact that Patrick is also exonerated by the DNA evidence.
 
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Megalodon,

One of the cases of probable DNA contamination I have documented here concerns Farah Jama, a black muslim Australian man accused of rape. Therefore, let us agree that race is not an issue in this case, at least with respect to critiques of the forensics presented here. With respect to the evidence against Guede, let's see what the electropherograms look like and discuss them.

Chris

halides1,

your side of the discussion has been throwing so much sand in the air, misdirecting any attempt to present facts and avoiding any proximity with reality in such an elaborate way that the only alternative left is to laugh at you.

There are dozens of pages discussing DNA evidence that, in the end, is perfectly irrelevant because Sollecito knew that DNA would be found in the knife. He made up a story to justify it's presence. From that moment it doesn't even matter if they did or did not find any DNA on the knife.

Of course, it might just be one of the hilarious false memories that the two white kids are so prone to...

Feel free to disregard my contributions to this thread. They will probably just be occasional reminders of how deeply irrational your position is. But by all means keep it up. This thread's a doozy :D
 
misdirection

halides1,

your side of the discussion has been throwing so much sand in the air, misdirecting any attempt to present facts and avoiding any proximity with reality in such an elaborate way that the only alternative left is to laugh at you.

There are dozens of pages discussing DNA evidence that, in the end, is perfectly irrelevant because Sollecito knew that DNA would be found in the knife. He made up a story to justify it's presence. From that moment it doesn't even matter if they did or did not find any DNA on the knife.

Of course, it might just be one of the hilarious false memories that the two white kids are so prone to...

Feel free to disregard my contributions to this thread. They will probably just be occasional reminders of how deeply irrational your position is. But by all means keep it up. This thread's a doozy :D

Megalodon,

No, Sollecito did not know anything of the sort. He responded to the news that Meredith’s DNA was on the knife by saying in his diary that he did not believe Amanda was involved in Meredith’s murder, and following up with his story about cooking with Meredith.

I have spent more time than I can justify in listing the reasons why your position is wrong in my comments upthread. The first comments I made were naïve; I didn’t believe that anyone could hold a position as blatantly illogical as yours. All I can be troubled to say now is that the prosecution must not have agreed with your argument, or they would simply have read Sollecito’s diary into the record and not bothered with presenting the DNA profile of the knife.

Your playing the race card is a good example of misdirection, among other things. I am presently considering whether to pay attention to or to ignore your contributions to this thread. The difference is infinitesimal.

Chris
 
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There are several things wrong with your arguments.... Four is to make an allegation that Dr. Johnson is benefiting financially from this case without factual substantiation of any kind.

Dr. Stefanoni’s poor technique at forensic swabbing has been documented in photographs. That is one of many things one can criticize about her work here. Your criticisms of Dr. Johnson are not based in fact, so what is their basis?

Chris
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I'm not aware that anyone accused Elizabeth Johnson of benefiting financially from her report (but now you mention it, did she?).

Of more interest to me is: who engaged her to write the report? what constraints were incorporated into her report? For example, why did she not write about the samples of Amanda's and Meredith's mixed DNA found in Filomena's bedroom?

Why did Johnson dedicate almost as much space to a lengthy "background" introduction to her report as to her actual science comments concerning the Double DNA Knife. That's not very becoming a scientist to talk about rumours or alleged abilis as fact, without underlining that the trial has heard other versions concerning the same issues.

I quote from the start of her report:

"Background

This case involves the murder of Meredith Kercher, a British exchange student living in Perugia, Italy. On the night of November 1, 2007 Meredith Kercher was brutally attacked in her residence. She sustained three slash wounds to her throat, one of which was fatal. Her body was found the next day when her housemate, Amanda Knox, called police after noticing blood in their common bathroom, a broken window, and Meredith’s locked door. Before the police arrived, Amanda’s Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, unsuccessfully attempted to force open Meredith’s door. The police were able to open the door and found Meredith’s partially disrobed body under a duvet cover.

Police initially theorized that Amanda, Raffaele and Amanda’s boss, Patrick Lumumba, were involved with Meredith in a group sex tryst gone awry. However, during the ensuing forensic investigation, a drifter named Rudy Guede was conclusively linked to the scene by DNA found within the victim’s body, DNA from a bowel movement left unflushed in one bathroom, a bloody handprint under the victim’s body, and other items at the scene. After Lumumba was released based on an airtight alibi, the police theorized that Guede was the fourth participant in an alleged lethal sex game, although the only foreign DNA found on and within Meredith’s body matched Guede.

Rudy Guede fled to Germany but was arrested and returned to Italy. He initially told police that he had consensual sex with Meredith and that while he was in the bathroom a stranger came into the room and attacked her. Some months after his arrest he changed his story to identify the stranger as Raffaele and said that Amanda was present outside of the room. Although Rudy Guede has been tried and convicted of Meredith’s murder, the prosecution continues to believe that Amanda and Raffaele are complicit in this crime.

.... The following paragraphs outline the facts and our conclusions about this evidence."


Some comments on my part:

"Her body was found the next day when her housemate, Amanda Knox, called police after noticing blood"

Why does Johnson preface her science report with actions which a suspect alleges to have carried out? If Johnson really felt this was important to understanding DNA testing, she should have also supplied a Police version of events which contests Amanda's statements.
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"Before the police arrived, Amanda’s Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, unsuccessfully attempted to force open Meredith's door"

Again, now with Raffaele, Johnson writes her science report with a suspect's version (if this is in fact still Raffaele's version, shortly after arrest, he invoked and has basically maintained to this day his right to silence).
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"Police initially theorized that Amanda, Raffaele and Amanda’s boss, Patrick Lumumba, were involved with Meredith"

Wrong. Amanda initially accused Lumumba of murdering Meredith while she (Amanda) was in the house. Italy's constitution protected Amanda from this statement being used against her in the murder trial, but it was introduced into the charge against her for false accusation.

In any case, the investigators took a calculated risk of accepting Amanda's statement, as that helped pushed the investigation along at a moment when the killer or one of the killers was still not under police control.
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"the police theorized that Guede was the fourth participant"

Fourth? Third. At the same time that Amanda's false accusation was proven false, the forensic testing pointed towards Guede, who may or may not have been a "drifter" as characterised (why?) by scientist Johnson, but he certainly was a person known to Amanda, as she admitted in the trial.
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"Although Rudy Guede has been tried and convicted of Meredith’s murder, the prosecution continues"

Johnson reiterates a frequent FOA insinuation: that since Rudy has already been convicted of Meredith's murder, there's no need to pursue charges against Amanda and Raffaele.

In fact, the decision to charge Rudy with murder, and the body of evidence presented in his trial resulted from the same investigation report as was used as the basis for the charges against Amanda and Raffaele. The evidence used against the three is intrinsically intertwined.

The only difference is that Rudy's lawyer decided on a "fast-track" trial and at the same time Amanda and Raffaele's respective lawyers decided to go for a full, long trial.
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"The following paragraphs outline the facts and our conclusions about this evidence"

Who gave Johnson the "facts" she examined (data, graphs, crime background information)? Why was she given what she was given and not other information, for example about the mixed DNA samples of Meredith and Amanda?

What constraints were given to her?

Would she (Johnson) be willing to travel to Italy to testify? Why did the people who engaged Johnson wait until just a few days before the end of the trail to publisize the report? If it could have had an impact on the trial, it should have been presented months earlier when the DNA data was being dealt with in court.
====================

Johnson signs off her report in the following manner:



Who did she "respectfully submit" the report to? Was it to the same persons who originally engaged her?

Did she ever try to contact Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni, who Johnson severely criticised, in order to obtain further information about the testing procedures which were followed?
 
My understanding is that Patrick also had a strong alibi. And thank you for bringing up the fact that Patrick is also exonerated by the DNA evidence.

Patrick originally did not have a strong alibi. His alibi was just as weak as AK's and RS's but became stronger through investigation. They had to track down the unrelated individual placing him somewhere other than the crimescene. Against his weak alibi, the police had the strength of AK's statements placing him in the cottage.

AK and RS originally had weak alibis (stabbing bleeding fish, seeking special mops while his apartment filled with water, *********** while talking about lesbianism or whatever) and they got weaker through investigation. Finally they had no alibis at all.

I also brought up the fact that RG was convicted partially by DNA evidence. Patrick and RG were each examined by the very same DNA laboratory that allegedly leaves tweezers in beakers of Meredith's DNA.

Why do you think Stefanoni was such an excellent scientist where Patrick and RG are concerned?
 
Did she ever try to contact Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni, who Johnson severely criticised, in order to obtain further information about the testing procedures which were followed?

Thank you for asking this, Kermit. It was probably two months ago I asked halides1 precisely the same thing. Scientists don't operate in some sort of intellectual vacuum--frightened of differing opinions--cowering beneath some sort of Satanic bureaucracy.

They actually share information. If they didn't then there would never be such a thing as peer review or scientific progress.

All of the scientists I know are excited by the prospect of publicly defending their processes or findings in the face of controversy. Where are the hundreds of forensic experts pounding a path to Stefanoni's door to challenge her procedures and her results? On the contrary, I've seen only glowing reports from her peers for her work after the 2004 Asian tsunami.

When did Johnson visit Stefanoni and present her evidence?
 
....All of the scientists I know are excited by the prospect of publicly defending their processes or findings in the face of controversy. Where are the hundreds of forensic experts pounding a path to Stefanoni's door to challenge her procedures and her results? On the contrary, I've seen only glowing reports from her peers for her work after the 2004 Asian tsunami. When did Johnson visit Stefanoni and present her evidence?
Hi Stilicho,

This is one of the biggest problems I have with the FOA utilization of Johnson's report (which I presume was prepared at their instigation/behest, and was "respectfully submitted" to them when finished): if Johnson's critique was so devastating to Stefanoni's work, why wasn't it completed and presented in court by the very Johnson herself?

In fact, my reading of the press reports in English and Italian is that Stefanoni rather handily dealt with questioning by the defence teams when she was on the stand, and did not leave many court observers doubting as to the solidness of her procedures and results.

Of course, it would be better it Meredith's DNA sample had been big enough to be repeatable. And if repeating the test, it would have been better for the defence teams to accept the invitation to attend. However, the judges and jury know how to factor in the weight of the DNA tests amongst the overall fabric of the case evidence.

Where does that leave my appreciation of Elizabeth Johnson's report? Well, that some small part of FOA's time and effort budget (and maybe even part of the Holy Grail, world-famous PR campaign budget) has been wasted, only to get the result that "contamination can happen".
 
Patrick originally did not have a strong alibi. His alibi was just as weak as AK's and RS's but became stronger through investigation. They had to track down the unrelated individual placing him somewhere other than the crimescene. Against his weak alibi, the police had the strength of AK's statements placing him in the cottage.

Small children and adults with 24 hour a day custodial care always have alibis. People living as independent adults don't. And once you claim our significant other is part of the conspiracy, most of us can't don't have alibis for how we spent the night.

ETA: There were other witnesses that saw Patrick at his bar that night, but they were mere college students and for some reason didn't count. In Perugia it seems that you need an important person like a collage professor to release a defendant. But a mad Albanian spouting nonsense is considered a good witness when they side with the prosecution. Even after the professor vouched for Patrick, the authorities kept him in jail for a week.
 
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Small children and adults with 24 hour a day custodial care always have alibis. People living as independent adults don't. And once you claim our significant other is part of the conspiracy, most of us can't don't have alibis for how we spent the night.
Amanda and Raffaele, as significant others, involved each other in their alibis, but even then their stories have very little to do with each other, nor with the timeline of the evening when you put the movie, dinner, pipe break, computer usage, etc. into the right order.

That's just one more thing that I assume didn't impress the jury much.
 
Small children and adults with 24 hour a day custodial care always have alibis. People living as independent adults don't. And once you claim our significant other is part of the conspiracy, most of us can't don't have alibis for how we spent the night.

Patrick wasn't a small child and wasn't under custodial care. Neither were AK or RS. In light of the law, they began the evening of 05 NOV 2007 absolutely equal.

But AK and RS had a weak alibi. Patrick's was, for a time, even weaker, because his unrelated witness was unavailable, his bar was not busy enough to produce a till receipt to help strengthen his alibi, and an eyewitness had placed him in the cottage brutally slaying Meredith.

I sure hope your significant other is a little more reliable than Sollecito was. Upon being provided with evidence that he was not doing what he said he was doing, he decided to tell the police that Knox wasn't with him. That's a rookie mistake and I really don't blame him for doing that. Experienced criminals don't use each other as alibis.

Why not ask a lawyer yourself? Ask them if using your S.O. is a smart idea for an alibi. RS desperately tried to use something else. He claimed his computer would verify his alibi but it didn't. Don't hire him in your IT department, Kestrel. He's not very capable.
 
ETA: There were other witnesses that saw Patrick at his bar that night, but they were mere college students and for some reason didn't count. In Perugia it seems that you need an important person like a collage professor to release a defendant. But a mad Albanian spouting nonsense is considered a good witness when they side with the prosecution. Even after the professor vouched for Patrick, the authorities kept him in jail for a week.

I thought the judges ultimately rejected Kokomani as a credible witness. Perhaps the police should have included drunk college students instead. Wouldn't that just curl your toes, Kestrel?

As for your last line, I expect that you'd demand the immediate release of all suspects when an eyewitness and roommate of the deceased had declared she was there in the same building with him when he was attacking the victim. Apparently the police took Amanda's word more seriously than you do. They didn't immediately respect some airy-fairy college professor. Amanda (a mere college student) told them she was there and heard Meredith scream while Patrick was in the process of murdering her.
 
These are musings that bear some scrutiny. I had asked HB at the top of the page whether the memorandum would have been declared inadmissible in the US. I've retreated a bit on the needle ride possibility because there was not sufficient evidence to try any of them of first-degree murder.

On the other hand, especially where remorse is not expressed, even second-degree murder can result in dangerous offender status (in Canada) and I am sure there is a similar status in the US. Here's an example of a woman who was given that status in Canada for considerably less than murdering her roommate:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/1999/07/01/neve990701.html


Felony murder, "... when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the course of an applicable felony,".

"In the United States, felony murder is generally first degree murder, and is often a capital offense."

While the chances that Knox would find herself on death row in the U.S., as opposed to LWOP, are probably not great they are far from non-existent. She's fortunate that she hadn't chosen to go to school in Texas.
 
I sure hope your significant other is a little more reliable than Sollecito was. Upon being provided with evidence that he was not doing what he said he was doing, he decided to tell the police that Knox wasn't with him. That's a rookie mistake and I really don't blame him for doing that. Experienced criminals don't use each other as alibis.

When you spend the night at home with your wife, who is your alibi?

You do know the police lied to about having evidence proving that Amanda was at the cottage? They claimed to have a video where she was clearly identifiable. They even told this lie to the press.

The video in question is from the car park across the street. We know now that it is almost certainly the last image we have of Meredith alive.
 
Megalodon,

No, Sollecito did not know anything of the sort. He responded to the news that Meredith’s DNA was on the knife by saying in his diary that he did not believe Amanda was involved in Meredith’s murder, and following up with his story about cooking with Meredith.


I have to admire your ability to craft such noncommittal descriptions of Sollecito lying in a desperate, failed attempt to cover his ass.

<snip>

Your playing the race card is a good example of misdirection, among other things. I am presently considering whether to pay attention to or to ignore your contributions to this thread. The difference is infinitesimal.

Chris


Ridicule is not "playing the race card". Your suggestion that it is is one of the better examples of misdirection seen so far in this thread, which is itself quite an accomplishment.
 
When you spend the night at home with your wife, who is your alibi?

You do know the police lied to about having evidence proving that Amanda was at the cottage? They claimed to have a video where she was clearly identifiable. They even told this lie to the press.

The video in question is from the car park across the street. We know now that it is almost certainly the last image we have of Meredith alive.

Sweet dodge!

But you do know that RS had always hedged his bets by telling the police, completely voluntarily, about his business on the computer. He was smart enough not to rely on his S.O. because he really never trusted her that much. It was only after his computer monkeying fell through that he gave them AK and went silent.

I have no problems at all believing a scenario where, upon RS handing her to them, the police told AK that they had evidence placing her at the cottage. Why would that even be in dispute? What was her response to this sudden betrayal? Just tell them Patrick murdered Meredith. You have to give her credit for delaying the inevitable and, if their cleanup and staged burglary were sufficient, they'd send him to prison for 30 years or more and she could go back to RS and nobody would be the wiser.

Too bad the DNA evidence was so solid. It exonerated Patrick and slugged them instead. AK, RS, and RG were all done in by the DNA evidence. Patrick went free because of DNA evidence. Darn those irrepressible scientists!
 
Sweet dodge!

You didn't answer my question about who is your alibi when you spend the night at home with your wife. The answer is you don't have one.



But you do know that RS had always hedged his bets by telling the police, completely voluntarily, about his business on the computer. He was smart enough not to rely on his S.O. because he really never trusted her that much. It was only after his computer monkeying fell through that he gave them AK and went silent.

I have no problems at all believing a scenario where, upon RS handing her to them, the police told AK that they had evidence placing her at the cottage. Why would that even be in dispute? What was her response to this sudden betrayal? Just tell them Patrick murdered Meredith. You have to give her credit for delaying the inevitable and, if their cleanup and staged burglary were sufficient, they'd send him to prison for 30 years or more and she could go back to RS and nobody would be the wiser.

Go ahead and prove that is exactly how it happened. Dig up the police recordings of the interrogations of Amanda and Raffaele. Prove to us that Amanda named Patrick without his name being suggested by the police.
 
Felony murder, "... when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the course of an applicable felony,".

"In the United States, felony murder is generally first degree murder, and is often a capital offense."

While the chances that Knox would find herself on death row in the U.S., as opposed to LWOP, are probably not great they are far from non-existent. She's fortunate that she hadn't chosen to go to school in Texas.

Texas has a long history of sending innocent people to prison and death row. A few years ago, they even executed a innocent man based on scientifically invalid testimony from an arson investigator.
 
Texas has a long history of sending innocent people to prison and death row. A few years ago, they even executed a innocent man based on scientifically invalid testimony from an arson investigator.

And your point is ... what?

I'm not defending either the DP or Texas. I'm discussing Knox's relative good fortune in committing her brutal crime overseas.
 
You didn't answer my question about who is your alibi when you spend the night at home with your wife. The answer is you don't have one.

That's why I said it was a sweet dodge. That wasn't their alibi. No, theirs were sufficiently embellished that the police had plenty of inconsistencies to work with.

Go ahead and prove that is exactly how it happened. Dig up the police recordings of the interrogations of Amanda and Raffaele. Prove to us that Amanda named Patrick without his name being suggested by the police.

The police had no idea Patrick was involved until Amanda told them she was in the cottage covering her ears while he was in her bedroom attacking and murdering Meredith. We know this, not because of transcripts or recordings, but because he was not arrested until she bore witness against him.

They had no reason to suspect him or "suggest" him. He was arrested and held because of the voluntary eyewitness testimony of one person and one person only.
 
Go ahead and prove that is exactly how it happened. Dig up the police recordings of the interrogations of Amanda and Raffaele. Prove to us that Amanda named Patrick without his name being suggested by the police.
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Okay. Amanda herself is the one who said that Amanda named Patrick without his name being suggested by the police in the 6/9/14/40/50 hour (I believe that's where it's at now) interrogation on the night of 5 November 2007.

Here's Amanda's courtroom testimony. The asterisks replaces a discussion between lawyers and prosecutor, Judge Massei steps in to direct the testimony.

(GCM= Judge Massei GM= Prosecutor Mignini AK= Amanda Knox)

GM: ..... my question is, did the police first pronounce the name of Patrick, or was it you? And was it pronounced after having seen the message in the phone, or just like that, before that message was seen?
***********
GCM: .... What was the "suggestion", because I thought I had understood that the suggestion consisted in the fact that Patrick Lumumba, to whom the message was addressed, had been identified, they talked about "him, him, him". In what terms exactly did they talk about this "him"? What did they say to you?

AK: So, there was this thing that they wanted a name. And the message --

GCM: You mean, they wanted a name relative to what?

AK: To the person I had written to, precisely .... there was this interpreter next to me who kept saying "Maybe you don't remember, maybe you don't remember, but try," and other people were saying "Try, try, try to remember that you met someone, and I was there hearing "Remember, remember, remember," and then there was this person behind me who -- it's not that she actually really physically hurt me, but she frightened me...

GCM: "Remember!" is not a suggestion. It is a strong solicitation of your memory. Suggestion is rather...

AK: But it was always "Remember" following this same idea, that...

GCM: But they didn't literally say that it was him … just remember, remember

AK: No. They didn't say it was him, but they said "We know who it is, we know who it is. You were with him, you met him."

GCM: So, these were the suggestions.

AK: Yes.

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So, in the trial Amanda admitted that there was no suggestion of Patrick's name on the part of the police, only that they kept asking her to remember.

This testimony has to be read in its entirety to understand how Amanda’s defence claims of undue pressure evaporated. Read the whole translated testimony on PMF

If you want, I think I can dig up the audio of this testimony (in Italian).
 
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