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Merged Slaughter the House Bill / Pass without voting

I'm not sure if this is what you meant to say MeadMaker, but the point that's come up several times on other threads is that a law passed by Congress gets an assumption of constitutionality. (That is, it goes and remains in force from the time it becomes law unless and until a successful challenge is made in court.) The idea some people here have is that they can shift the burden of argumentation by saying, "It's not one of Congress' enumerated powers" and making the other side prove that it is. That's just not how it works.

And arguing a narrow interpretation of the Commerce Clause (a strict constructionist interpretation) will not succeed.

I think what he was saying is that a lot of conservatives and libertarians consider many laws upheld by the Courts to not really be Constitutional, and perhaps he suggested that I was making that type of argument (although I don't want to put words in his mouth). That isn't the argument I was making, and he quickly saw that. His point is a good one.

And I agree with you that getting it overturned if it passes would be an uphill battle. You are exactly right about the presumption of Constitutionality. But it wouldn't be all that surprising. I think a good argument can be made either way. Since the mandate is a substantive and not a procedural question, the Court will definitely be willing to hear the case. I could see how they could justify ruling either way.
 
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No. There are a number of exceptions made. You can get an exception on religious grounds or on economic hardship grounds. (I suppose that's there because there will doubtless be cases that still slip through the cracks of these programs that will attempt to make premiums affordable for everyone. I think the rule says if you can't find a plan that costs less than some percentage of your income, you are exempt.)

Also, at least in the Senate and current "reconciliation" versions, undocumented immigrants will not only not be required to buy insurance, they will be explicitly excluded from participation in any of the subsidized plans.

Okay, I'll take your word for that. But I don't think its germane to the question of the Constitutionality of the individual mandate. The question is whether Congress can compel any citizen to buy health insurance, not whether Congress can compel every citizen to buy health insurance.
 
Also, at least in the Senate and current "reconciliation" versions, undocumented immigrants will not only not be required to buy insurance, they will be explicitly excluded from participation in any of the subsidized plans.

That seems silly. Not including illegal immigrants is going to make costs harder to manage. We're all paying for them anyway.
 
My thoughts on the underlying issue of healthcare, in case anyone is wondering, is that we should either let the states handle it, or else just go to single payer. I think the moral argument for covering everyone has considerable force, with the only possible monkey wrench being that we likely can't afford to do that. Of course, that's a pretty major hang-up. If we let the country become insolvent because we're covering anyone, then that is worse in the long run for everyone than the status quo.

And I feel insulted by the argument that we can cover 30 million more people, many of whm have pre-existing conditions, and save money. Just tell me it's going to cost more but it's the right thing to do. I have a great deal of respect for that argument.

The current bill is the worst of both worlds in many respects. I don't know if it's realistic to expect better than that from Congress, given how it is designed to operate (and the reasons for building in such inefficiencies are very good, in my opinion). But that is a reason to consider letting states handle it individually. At any rate, I think that sometimes the compromise is worse than either of the extremes. I do not like this bill, and I hope it fails. Honestly, single payer would be better. But I also think that the status quo is better than this bill. I guess what I'd favor is single payer with a parallel private system for people who are willing to and can afford to pay for treatment that single payment wouldn't be willing to cover for efficiency reasons. It would still be a separate system for them rich, but I believe in markets and that people who can afford special private care should have the option of buying it.

Honestly, I'm more interested in discussing the intricacies of the process than I am in whether the bill passes. I'm a law student and a huge nerd, and I find this procedural stuff absolutely fascinating.

I don't know if anyone would be surprised to hear that given what I've said in this thread, but I am no ideological conservative or libertarian, although I sympathize to some extent with both of those perspectives. Anyway, no more scotch for me. I have class in the morning. :)
 
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And arguing a narrow interpretation of the Commerce Clause (a strict constructionist interpretation) will not succeed.

I'm not so sure about that. The current trend is toward a narrower interpretation. In my opinion, the Court wouldn't have to read it all that narrowly to strike down the mandate. It wouldn't really have to be strict construction, unless it's strict construction to say that compelling participation in interstate commerce does not fall under "regulating" interstate commerce. It has never been held that it does. If the Court decides that what is being regulated is inaction, then it would most likely strike down the mandate. The real argument will be over exactly what is being regulated.
 
That seems silly. Not including illegal immigrants is going to make costs harder to manage. We're all paying for them anyway.

I've been saying that for a long time. It makes more sense to recognize that they're part of our economy and get them to pay in something rather than nothing. (And have access to decent healthcare which will probably be cheaper over the long run than waiting until desperately sick or seriously injured people become burdens on the system one way or another.)

And that's not to mention the moral/humanitarian argument--it's just right to cover as many people as we can.
 
My thoughts on the underlying issue of healthcare, in case anyone is wondering, is that we should either let the states handle it, or else just go to single payer.

I'd definitely prefer a single payer system. (And it would definitely fit in with the Commerce Clause as being linked to the authority to raise revenue through taxation.)

I don't like the idea of leaving it to the states. By now, we should consider healthcare to be a basic necessity that we the people ought provide (through government). Unfortunately, leaving these services up to the states can result in horrible disparity from state to state. Also, I think there is a lot of overlap between "leaving it to the states" and letting faith-based organizations handle it. It's the abdication of our moral duty as a nation, IMO.

BTW, the Senate plan only provides for state-run insurance exchanges (not at the national level). I don't know if there's anything addressing that in the reconciliation package.
 
I'd definitely prefer a single payer system. (And it would definitely fit in with the Commerce Clause as being linked to the authority to raise revenue through taxation.)

I don't like the idea of leaving it to the states. By now, we should consider healthcare to be a basic necessity that we the people ought provide (through government). Unfortunately, leaving these services up to the states can result in horrible disparity from state to state. Also, I think there is a lot of overlap between "leaving it to the states" and letting faith-based organizations handle it. It's the abdication of our moral duty as a nation, IMO.

BTW, the Senate plan only provides for state-run insurance exchanges (not at the national level). I don't know if there's anything addressing that in the reconciliation package.

I agree single payer would be Constitutional under the Commerce Clause, because providing health care is an economic activity. Because it is economic activity, it is within the Commerce Power. Because it is within the Commerce Power, taxes can be levied to pay for it pursuant to the General Welfare Clause.
 
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And I feel insulted by the argument that we can cover 30 million more people, many of whm have pre-existing conditions, and save money. Just tell me it's going to cost more but it's the right thing to do. I have a great deal of respect for that argument.
The truth is, the bill as a whole pays for this. There are a number of revenue generating bits to it.

I do not like this bill, and I hope it fails. Honestly, single payer would be better. But I also think that the status quo is better than this bill.
That's perhaps my main disagreement with you, I think. I also don't like this bill, but I hope it passes precisely because I think it's a huge improvement over the status quo. It will literally be the difference between life and death for many people, and the difference between a 21st Century quality of life (in the leading nation of the developed world) and a quality of life closer to that of early post-industrial revolution times.

I agree that it doesn't do much to decrease overall healthcare costs. I think it's criminal that it doesn't include the repeal of the McCarron-Ferguson Act. (And I'm not sure if that can be passed in reconciliation since it's not something that directly impacts the budget, but I would think that's something that can be agreed on in a bipartisan bill.)

But, it will provide improved access to healthcare for some 30 million people, it will reform health insurance, and the trade off is the individual mandate that will at least get many low-risk people to contribute something rather than nothing.
 
So the latest news is that the House will vote on Sunday. (Best I can tell, it'll be a straight vote on the Senate Plan and not the self-executing rule.)
 
So the latest news is that the House will vote on Sunday. (Best I can tell, it'll be a straight vote on the Senate Plan and not the self-executing rule.)

Good. Pass or fail, it is better for the country that it receive an explicit vote.
 
Good. Pass or fail, it is better for the country that it receive an explicit vote.

Maybe, but only because the matter has gotten so much scrutiny in the press. The 70 or so times it was used in the previous two Congresses didn't seem to damage the country.
 
The truth is, the bill as a whole pays for this. There are a number of revenue generating bits to it.

But it will only be a deficit reducer if the cuts to Medicare reimbursements t doctors are not later stripped out. There's already a rumor going around Capitol Hill that Pelosi plans do do just that later this spring. We'll see. A memo to that effect, supposedly from Steny Hoyer's office, was "leaked" and was reported on, but Democratic leaders say it's not genuine. That's probably true. Having read the memo, they would have to be astoundingly stupid to have sent it out. We'll have to see what happens, but I have a hard time believing that cutting reimbursements is really a viable option in the first place, so I wouldn't be surprised if it were stripped out later, even though the memo is most likely fake. Could well be "fake but accurate." :D

Leaving it in allows them to say the health care bill will reduce the deficit. Remove that, and it expands the deficit.
 
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Maybe, but only because the matter has gotten so much scrutiny in the press. The 70 or so times it was used in the previous two Congresses didn't seem to damage the country.

That's exactly what I mean. Although I still maintain that this use of the process would be different from any prior use, in that the resulting legislation will be "split" - with a single vote, the House will send part of what they pass to the President and part of it to the Senate. That has never been done before, and it would raise questions as to whether the majority of the House really voted to approve the Senate bill unconditionally and without amendments, which is required in order for reconciliation to proceed in the Senate. It isn't voting on both with one vote that may be unconstitutional - I think that is clearly within the House's power under Article I sec. 5. But even if it would have been unconstitutional, I don't think it would have broken the country's back or anything.
 
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That's exactly what I mean.
So the damage to the country is from over-zealous "scrutiny" of an ugly process (and false accusations that what's going on is "ramming through" a bill using unconstitutional processes)--not from using existing rules that have been used a great many times in just the same way.

Although I still maintain that this use of the process would be different from any prior use, in that the resulting legislation will be "split" - with a single vote, the House will send part of what they pass to the President and part of it to the Senate. That has never been done before, and it would raise questions as to whether the majority of the House really voted to approve the Senate bill unconditionally and without amendments, which is required in order for reconciliation to proceed in the Senate. It isn't voting on both with one vote that may be unconstitutional - I think that is clearly within the House's power under Article I sec. 5. But even if it would have been unconstitutional, I don't think it would have broken the country's back or anything.

I'm pretty sure this is the same way the self executing rule has been used in the past. Otherwise, I don't see why it would be used at all, and I've shown that it has been used many times even on large, important and controversial bills, so it's not just used as a time saving device. I think the situations it has been used in the past were very similar--you had some bill passed in the Senate that the House wanted to pass but not without changes or it was political inexpedient for House members to be on record as voting directly for the bill without the changes.

Basically you vote for one thing, and included in that thing are magic words that has the effect of passing the other thing. Both things are passed by vote. The only thing you can say is that there wasn't a separate vote on the other thing. But they are two things, so no one is splitting a single thing into two things after both things have passed by vote.

At any rate, it doesn't seem like they're going to need to go that route now.
 
But it will only be a deficit reducer if the cuts to Medicare reimbursements t doctors are not later stripped out. There's already a rumor going around Capitol Hill that Pelosi plans do do just that later this spring.

I don't believe the rumors.

At any rate, it seems like a reasonable thing to assess the bill as it's written and not as someone conjectures it might be changed in the future. To me, the latter would be "sleight of hand".

And remember, what's his name single-handedly stopped the vote to extend unemployment benefits because of the recent pledge by Congress not to pass anything that would increase the deficit except for emergency measures. I don't think something that would increase the deficit by half a billion dollars would be able to get through.
 
So the damage to the country is from over-zealous "scrutiny" of an ugly process (and false accusations that what's going on is "ramming through" a bill using unconstitutional processes)--not from using existing rules that have been used a great many times in just the same way.



I'm pretty sure this is the same way the self executing rule has been used in the past. Otherwise, I don't see why it would be used at all, and I've shown that it has been used many times even on large, important and controversial bills, so it's not just used as a time saving device. I think the situations it has been used in the past were very similar--you had some bill passed in the Senate that the House wanted to pass but not without changes or it was political inexpedient for House members to be on record as voting directly for the bill without the changes.

Basically you vote for one thing, and included in that thing are magic words that has the effect of passing the other thing. Both things are passed by vote. The only thing you can say is that there wasn't a separate vote on the other thing. But they are two things, so no one is splitting a single thing into two things after both things have passed by vote.

At any rate, it doesn't seem like they're going to need to go that route now.

I think you don't quite have the deem and pass thing straight. The way it has worked in the past is that an un-voted-on amendment gets put into a bill through the same vote that passes the bill. The whole thing then goes either to the President or to the Senate, depending on whether the Senate's version of the bill (1) has been passed, and (2) contains the same amendment. The result of the deem and pass vote has always been a single bill. This time, they want to send half of it to the President and half to the Senate (because only half of it has passed the Senate). You can't do that with a single bill, so the claim will be that it is two separate bills. If true, then this would be unprecedented.

That would raise serious questions about whether the majority of the House approved the Senate Bill unconditionally and without amendment. If they use the deem and pass method, there would be a real question as to whether a majority really would have voted just for the Senate Bill. If they deem and pass, they still must say that they approved the Senate bill word for word, and that would be suspect.

Now, would the Court get involved? Well, if they decide the question is a Constitutional one rather than strictly a question of House procedure, they might. See United States v. Munoz-Flores (1990), footnote 4, which says:

Justice SCALIA apparently would revisit Powell. He contends that Congress’ resolution of the constitutional question in passing the bill bars this Court from independently considering that question. The only case he cites for his argument is Field v. Clark, 143 U. S. 649 (1892). But Field does not support his argument. That case concerned “the nature of the evidence” the Court would consider in determining whether a bill had actually passed Congress. Id. at 670. Appellants had argued that the constitutional clause providing that “each house shall keep a journal of its proceedings” implied that whether a bill had passed must be determined by an examination of the journals. See ibid. (quoting Art. 1, § 5) (internal quotation marks omitted). The Court rejected that interpretation of the Journal Clause, holding that the Constitution left it to Congress to determine how a bill is to be authenticated as having passed. Id. at 143 U. S. 670–671. In the absence of any constitutional requirement binding Congress, we stated that “[t]he respect due to coequal and independent departments” demands that the courts accept as passed all bills authenticated in the manner provided by Congress. Id. at 143 U. S. 672. Where, as here, a constitutional provision is implicated, Field does not apply."
In United States v. Ballin, decided later in the same term as Field, the Supreme Court considered the question of whether a bill had passed with a proper quorum that was properly recorded. The Court relied on the house journal to answer that question, but what is most significant for the Health Care situation is that it decided the question. In this case, would looking at the House journal yield any evidence that the Senate bill was ever voted on at all? I'm not sure exactly what goes into the Journal, but it might not.

The Public Citizen case that's being talked about was a case of a clerical error resulting in the House passing a bill that said "36 months" in some clause when the bill the Senate passed had been amended to say "13 months." It was clear from the recorded debates in the House that they intended to pass the "13 months" language. This case is different, because the House's intent would be purposely ambiguous, in order to give House members plausible deniability if things goes south in the Senate.

At any rate, the upshot is that those who say it would be unconstitutional are not making "false accusations." In fact, they may well be right. Whether they are right and whether the Court would intervene are two different questions, but both could be predicted in the affirmative in good faith and without being ridiculous.
 
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I don't believe the rumors.

At any rate, it seems like a reasonable thing to assess the bill as it's written and not as someone conjectures it might be changed in the future. To me, the latter would be "sleight of hand".

And remember, what's his name single-handedly stopped the vote to extend unemployment benefits because of the recent pledge by Congress not to pass anything that would increase the deficit except for emergency measures. I don't think something that would increase the deficit by half a billion dollars would be able to get through.

This Medicare reimbursement cut has been in law for years, and every time it's about to go into effect, they vote to put it off. But maybe this time they really mean it.
 
So, the deem and pass didn't happen. That takes care of that question. Now, as I understand it, the House has passed the exact same bill that the Senate has already passed. The President can now sign it.

Of course, no one really wants this bill. They want the bill that was represented by the reconciliation bill. Some of the "yes" votes tonight are counting on the Senators and the President to keep their word to use the reconciliation bill to "fix" what they perceive as problems. However, this is an act of faith, right. The President could just sign it. The Senators could refuse to vote for the reconciliation bill. Right now, the bill, as passed by the Senate and the House, is on its way to the President's desk for signature...and any intended amendments are deals that were worked out, but theres nothing that actually requires anyone to hold to those deals, right?
 

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