Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Fulcanelli]

Yawn.

I meant Sollecito, and you know perfectly well that is what I meant. Your childish attempts at schoolyard one-upmanship are sad, and boring.

Sadder still, you don't even seem to realize that such puerile tactics reflect badly not only on you, but on the entire side of this discussion you mistakenly imagine that you are supporting.

Knox would be better off without such "Friends".

And it wouldn't be so bad if all these games weren't about something so tragic. Some people, like Mathew Best, need to be reminded of what it is they're playing with...this isn't a 'sport'.


Meredith's Funeral

Source: PMF

 

[Matthew Best]

Yawn.

I meant Sollecito, and you know perfectly well that is what I meant.

Thanks for the clarification, at last. All you had to do was say you had made a mistake and we could have avoided this pointless back and forth.

 

[Matthew Best]

My comment was actually in regard to what you had said to Quadraginta. I was well aware you weren't saying it to me. Keep spinning...you're the only one that'll get dizzy.

As you can see, quadraginta has now admitted that he misspoke, so your comment was in error.

 

[quadraginta]

Thanks for the clarification, at last. All you had to do was say you had made a mistake and we could have avoided this pointless back and forth.

You really don't get it, do you.

Grow up.

 

[Matthew Best]

You really don't get it, do you.

Yes, I get it. You claimed something incorrect, I asked you to clarify, you blustered. Now you've admitted your error and we can all carry on as before.

 

[stilicho]

Yes, I get it. You claimed something incorrect, I asked you to clarify, you blustered. Now you've admitted your error and we can all carry on as before.

Remind me never to ask you to be a character witness and you should hope you never become a suspect in any kind of criminal activity. Consider that you've spent 2 pages parsing a sentence, bloviating on the importance of indefinite articles, and proclaiming triumph in a debate nobody cares about except you.

You remind me of a certain suspect who carried knives with him to the Questura because the "stupid policemen" would never catch on.

 

[stilicho]

By the way, a minor thing that has been bothering me for a while. Why is the claim always that the "fsa files" have been withheld. Surely this is only the file extension associated with a particular file format, all be it a common one? There seem to be other extensions associated with the fasta format "fa, seq, fsa". Presumably there are other file formats? I could be wrong, but here is a list of similar formats:


Quote:
* AB1 - In DNA sequencing, chromatogram files used by instruments from Applied Biosystems
* ACE- A sequence assembly format
* CAF- Common Assembly Format for sequence assembly
* EMBL- The flatfile format used by the EMBL to represent database records for nucleotide and peptide sequences from EMBL databases
* FASTA - The FASTA file format, for sequence data. Sometimes also given as FNA or FAA (Fasta Nucleic Acid or Fasta Amino Acid).
* FASTQ - The FASTQ file format, for sequence data with quality. Sometimes also given as QUAL.
* GenBank - The flatfile format used by the NCBI to represent database records for nucleotide and peptide sequences from the GenBank and RefSeq databases
* PHD - Phred output, from the basecalling software Phred
* SCF - Staden chromatogram files used to store data from DNA sequencing
* Stockholm - The Stockholm format for representing multiple sequence alignments
* Swiss-Prot - The flatfile format used to represent database records for protein sequences from the Swiss-Prot database

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ormats#Biology

FastA (.fss) seems to be a US format. Are we sure that the defence haven't been provided with scf files, for example?

That's not a minor thing. Which format are the files that halides1 seeks? I don't even see FSA listed there.

Thanks as always for an interesting illumination on the subject at hand, ShuttIt.

 

[Moss]

Even if we assume "to party" in this case means doing something recreational at Raffaele's flat, I'm still short the friend of his he spoke of in the linked article. Is there anything more on that?

 

[shuttlt]

That's not a minor thing. Which format are the files that halides1 seeks? I don't even see FSA listed there.

I believe the .fsa extension is associated with the FASTA format. As for whether it is a minor thing or not, I don't really know. It may well be that an "fsa file" is being used as a generic name. The people making the claim couldn't honestly say that they had not received the "fsa files" if they had received an equivalent file with a different extension. If we were all reasonable people that would be enough. Perhaps we are and perhaps we aren't.

Thanks as always for an interesting illumination on the subject at hand, ShuttIt.

I'm glad you liked it. I thought at the very least it would give some context to all the statements about these files.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

file format

By the way, a minor thing that has been bothering me for a while. Why is the claim always that the "fsa files" have been withheld. Surely this is only the file extension associated with a particular file format, all be it a common one? There seem to be other extensions associated with the fasta format "fa, seq, fsa". Presumably there are other file formats? I could be wrong, but here is a list of similar formats:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_file_formats#Biology

FastA (.fss) seems to be a US format. Are we sure that the defence haven't been provided with scf files, for example?

Shuttit,

The data in a forensic DNA file does not give sequence information directly, it gives information on the size of the DNA fragments, which can be different from one individual to the next at certain places along a chromosome (loci). The sizes of DNA fragments vary because the number of short tandem repeats (STRs) of nucleotides is different. The DNA fragments are subjected to electrophoresis (movement of charged chemical species in an electric field). The smaller fragments move through the capillary tube more quickly than the large ones do. The fragments are detected by fluorescence, and the output is called an electropherogram. DNA sequences are also determined using electrophoresis, but in an entirely different way. The fsa files are produced by DNA forensic instruments made by Applied Biosystems, and their format may be proprietary, but the software to read them is available separately from the entire instrument.

Chris

 

[Kermit]

Charlie Wilkes said sarcastically: "There is no absolute proof that the DNA test on the knife blade resulted from contamination in the lab, and therefore it is certainly the murder weapon. There is no absolute proof Guede made the print on the bathmat, and therefore it was certainly made by Sollecito."

Nobody is making those arguments Charlie, except for facetious-you. You start with the argument that the Double DNA Knife is contanimated and you require that somebody prove that it isn't contaminated, when in fact the requirement goes in the opposite way.

In a similar manner, there is no reason to suspect that the bathmat footprint is Rudy's (unless if you shrink it lengthwise, then stretch it widthwise, then erase his inner arch), when Raffaele's fits perfectly without such plastic surgery.

 

[Kermit]

So where was Amanda on the night of the murder?

Where was Raffaele on the night of the murder, and why?

Well, Amanda says she was with Raffaele and that they slept together.

Raffaele says that she was not in his flat between 9 p.m. and 1 a.m. .....


..... maybe they're both telling the truth.

 

[Kermit]

I've seen it again and again - speculation presented as certainty, and the public is totally convinced. One of my favorites is in a dog-eared book by Harlan Levy:

"The prosecutors... stood squarely behind the DNA evidence and explained the absence of DNA evidence against the defendants in reasonable and logical terms. There was no assault on DNA testing, no argument that such testing itself was somehow flawed.

"Over the years, this would become the norm among the best and most ethical prosecutors. They would follow the DNA evidence wherever it led."

Harlan Levy is about as relevant to this case as Douglas Preston.

I'm skeptical about evidence, but I don't reject it outright if there is no reason to.

This case is not only built on DNA. The judges and jury all believed that there was good reason to convict Amanda and Raffaele of murder (together with Rudy). They took into account the overall mix of hard and circumstantial evidence, of technical and human data, of the suspects' manners and their replies.

It would be imprudent to directly reject any of the evidence, on the basis of your dog-eared book.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

more on the contents of the fsa files

I believe the .fsa extension is associated with the FASTA format. As for whether it is a minor thing or not, I don't really know. It may well be that an "fsa file" is being used as a generic name. The people making the claim couldn't honestly say that they had not received the "fsa files" if they had received an equivalent file with a different extension. If we were all reasonable people that would be enough. Perhaps we are and perhaps we aren't.


I'm glad you liked it. I thought at the very least it would give some context to all the statements about these files.

Shuttit,

Here is a helpful link:

http://www.nfstc.org/pdi/Subject06/pdi_s06_m01_02.htm

Chris

 

[stilicho]

Shuttit,

The data in a forensic DNA file does not give sequence information directly, it gives information on the size of the DNA fragments, which can be different from one individual to the next at certain places along a chromosome (loci). The sizes of DNA fragments vary because the number of short tandem repeats (STRs) of nucleotides is different. The DNA fragments are subjected to electrophoresis (movement of charged chemical species in an electric field). The smaller fragments move through the capillary tube more quickly than the large ones do. The fragments are detected by fluorescence, and the output is called an electropherogram. DNA sequences are also determined using electrophoresis, but in an entirely different way. The fsa files are produced by DNA forensic instruments made by Applied Biosystems, and their format may be proprietary, but the software to read them is available separately from the entire instrument.

Chris

Which means what? Which of the formats that ShuttIt established is the one you're looking for? I don't see *.fsa listed there so which one is it?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Biondo and Stefanoni

It would be helpful if you could clarify exactly what you mean by "independent" since it appears that you are somehow insinuating that the senior lab personnel are purposely distorting their testimony to the prosecution's advantage.

In the U.S it is quite common for LE to use the services of FBI forensics facilities to do analysis that they do not have the resources to do themselves. Consultation back and forth during an ongoing investigation is routine, and probably even beneficial to the accurate analysis and disposition of the evidence involved. Occasionally there are time-critical discoveries which prompt one or the other agency to communicate with the other in aid of the investigation. FBI lab personnel may then be subsequently called to testify in the relevant trials by either the prosecution or the defense, or both. How does this practice fit in with your "idea of independence"? How does it differ from the situation you are criticizing in the Knox trial?

Quadraginta,

I am still looking into this question, so please take this as an interim comment. Some communication between the forensic scientists and the prosecution team is fine, but not all of it is. Here is one example of the problem:
“Often, bias is inadvertent. Information such as details of the crime, names of suspects, and the expected result can impact an analyst’s objectivity. In one study, experienced examiners were given fingerprints they had correctly identified in the past along with made up information, such as that the suspect had confessed. With the additional information, these examiners misidentified seventeen percent of the fingerprints.”
http://www.thejusticeproject.org/blog/fixing-flaws-in-forensic-science/

In this case Renato Biondo was sitting at the prosecution’s table while Dr. Stefanoni was testifying, and because he is her superior and a consultant for the prosecution, this sends her a message, perhaps subconsciously. Frank Sfarzo wrote, “All taking place under the supervision of her chief, Renato Biondo. Today Patrizia started her testimony. And Renato was there, sitting at his own chair, between Mignini and Comodi, the chiefs of the chief of the beautiful biologist.”
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/05/lab-of-wonders.html

Frank Sfarzo wrote, “Why was she so motivated can be certainly explained with the goodwill of which she's endowed. But a lesser stimulus can even have come from a factor that not everyone knows. Her chief Renato Biondo, besides being in charge of that office in scientific police, is as well consultant for Mignini. Yes, believe it or not, here we are again with a consultant-directed job, just as the one we have seen on the footprints.”
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/05/finding-36-and-other-catastrophies-part.html

Harry Rag wrote on February 20, 2009, “In the light of the judges’ decisions so far and the forensic evidence, which was independently confirmed as accurate and reliable by Dr. Renato Biondo, head of the DNA Unit of the scientific police in Rome...” (emphasis added)
http://m.digitaljournal.com/article/267327?doredir=0&noredir=1

What would we expect Biondo to say? He is Stefanoni’s superior and is a prosecution consultant.

Chris

 

[Chris_Halkides]

fsa format

Which means what? Which of the formats that ShuttIt established is the one you're looking for? I don't see *.fsa listed there so which one is it?

The fsa format is different from all of the file formats shuttit listed, to the best of my knowledge. Certainly some of the formats he or she listed are completely unrelated to the fsa format. IIRC, Stefanoni used an instrument supplied by Applied Biosystems, so the output files are .fsa files.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Kermit writes:

Nobody is making those arguments Charlie, except for facetious-you. You start with the argument that the Double DNA Knife is contanimated and you require that somebody prove that it isn't contaminated, when in fact the requirement goes in the opposite way.

I would argue that the prosecution has the burden of proving this knife is the murder weapon, or, according to their theory, one of two murder weapons. I don't think they have done so.

In a similar manner, there is no reason to suspect that the bathmat footprint is Rudy's (unless if you shrink it lengthwise, then stretch it widthwise, then erase his inner arch), when Raffaele's fits perfectly without such plastic surgery.

I don't agree that Sollecito's footprint fits the print on the bathmat. Sollecito's instep is too flat and wide, and his big toe has a completely different shape.

My larger point is that every bit of evidence against Knox and Sollecito is under a cloud for one reason or another. That is because it's not real evidence of guilt; it is material that was gathered to support a specific theory that had already been presented to the media and the public. They need to match this footprint to Sollecito, because they have so little against him. Meanwhile the evidence against Guede is incontrovertible. It tells a credible story that is consistent with many other sexual homicides.

 

[stilicho]

What would we expect Biondo to say? He is Stefanoni’s superior and is a defense consultant.

Chris

Enough of the innuendo.

Evidence, please.

BTW, have you found the time to explain yet to FOA that you are not an expert in the field? They are still posting this:

Chris Halkides, associate professor of chemistry and biochemistry at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, has added his voice to those of other experts who believe the "Double-DNA knife" is worthless as evidence and had nothing to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher. His blog is called View-from-Wilmington, and he has posted several interesting articles on the case.

Are you an expert in the field of DNA analysis? Which of these of your colleagues is your direct superior at UNCW?

James H. Reeves, Ph.D.
Antje Pokorny Almeida, Ph.D.
Paulo F. Almeida, Ph.D.
G. Brooks Avery, Ph.D.
Daniel G. Baden, Ph.D.
Robert D. Hancock, Ph.D.
S. Bart Jones, Ph.D.
Cecilia B. Kieber, M.S.
Robert J. Kieber, Ph.D.
Richard Lancaster, M.S.
Hee Seung Lee, Ph.D.
John J. Manock, Ph.D.
Ned H. Martin, Ph.D.
Heather J. McCreery, M.S.
Ralph Mead, Ph.D
Michael Messina, Ph.D.
Jeremy Morgan, Ph.D.
Pamela J. Seaton, Ph.D.
Stephen A. Skrabal, Ph.D.
John A. Tyrell, Ph.D.
Sridhar Varadarajan, Ph.D.
Charles R. Ward, Ph.D.
Michael Webb, Ph.D.
Joan D. Willey, Ph.D.
Jeffrey L. Wright, Ph.D.

How many of them buy into your theories?

 

[stilicho]

Meanwhile the evidence against Guede is incontrovertible. It tells a credible story that is consistent with many other sexual homicides.

How and why did RG fake the burglary?