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Niqabs/Burka: What is free will and what is abuse?

CDRM

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http://www.cbc.ca/arts/media/story/2010/03/12/mont-gazette-cartoon-niqab-aislin.html

Even if she claims to be wearing it out of her own free will, is there any merit to claims that she is just "brainwashed" into accepting such a dehumanizing wardrobe? Could it be considered abuse, something sort of like battered wife syndrome?

I'm just curious in general as to where the line is between free will and abuse. When should the state interfere?
 
I don't have an answer, I've often wondered that as well.

What I always think about are FLDS polygamyst compounds where the girls are married very young to much older men with many wives. Whenever authorities intercede, the women don't WANT to leave.

But the fact is, they've been raised completely shut off from society. They are indoctrinated and brainwashed. They are not basing their decisions off of the real world, but off of a world of manipulation and abuse. And they'll raise their kids the same way and the cycle continues. Whereas if these cults were just forcibly broken up, sure it would be very difficult for the current generation who will see their families split up, but it would stop the cycle of abuse. It reminds me of when Jaycee Duggard was found. Her relatives made comments that her daughters by her rapist were angry that their father had been arrested and that their family split up. They had been born into that life, it's all they ever knew.

But of course, that is a dangerous approach to make such intervention legal. Because then it's a slippery slope of what behaviors are strange enough that the government can interfere "for your own good."


I feel this is a problem which just has no easy answer.
 
This isn't even a tough one. Banning the burqa is ridiculous.

And yes I consider it brainwashing and hugely idiotic to wear one. Yet another reason why the fight against religious nutjobbery must continue.
 
Regardless of the reason peole assume that others choose a life course, it is not the government's busines to insert themselves in the private decisions uninvited (I see nothing wrong with the government providing active support for women who want to leave such a life, however)
 
Happened in my city.

The problem is, she is expecting people to accomodate her - she is wearing it in a french class where she is supposed to do oral presentations. She did her presentations facing the wall, her back to the other students.

She also wants to become a pharmacist, which she will shortly find is impossible here (that has nothing to do with her wardrobe - there are two pharmacy faculties in Quebec and they don't recognize scholarity from foreign countries. I have two pharmacist friends from lebanon who have given up on the idea of practicing here).

I wouldn't be comfortable asking drug advice from somebody whose face I can't see. And would she accept to speak to men ?

What people do in their own homes is their problem, but when their way of life is imposed on others through work or study in public institutions, that's where I would draw the line.

For instance, at my university, there are times where the swimming pool is not accessible to men to accomodate women wearing hijabs. And there are cases in Canada where murderers got lighter sentences because their cultural backgrounds encouraged honor killing.

I don't think it's very wise to accomodate the religious (of any religion) on fundamental rights and values of our country. The law and rules should be the same for everybody, and your religion should be left at the door if you have any business at public institutions.
 
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I don't care if a Muslim woman wears a face-showing Burka. Its her choice.

Orthodox Jewish women wear skirts down below their knees and blouses that cover their elbos. Married woman cover their natural hair with a wig or kerchief.

Whether this is by force..or by choice....may just depend on each individual family.
 
kerikiwi said:
Can you provide some evidence for this claim? It seems quite astonishing.
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It involves a thing called "cultural défense" which can be used as a sort of insanity plea - but I've found out it's not unique to Canada, it's also used in the US, UK, and NZ it seems. According to this, there has been a recent upsurge of its use in trials.

Unfortunately I could not find any link to actual cases - I had just heard of its use in a recent honor killing case in Toronto (in the news).
 
CDRM said:
I'm just curious in general as to where the line is between free will and abuse. When should the state interfere?
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The problem is that such a line would almost necessarily favor one culture over another. I don't see a difference between the "brainwashing" necessary to get women to wear a burqa and that necessary to get women to be monogamous.
 
CDRM said:
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/media/story/2010/03/12/mont-gazette-cartoon-niqab-aislin.html

Even if she claims to be wearing it out of her own free will, is there any merit to claims that she is just "brainwashed" into accepting such a dehumanizing wardrobe? Could it be considered abuse, something sort of like battered wife syndrome?

I'm just curious in general as to where the line is between free will and abuse. When should the state interfere?
Click to expand...


Leave it alone. It's best killed by a generation or two growing up seeing it mocked and useless and having it explained, in a world where people cannot be silenced by the state, how oppressive it is.

That's why we have freedom of speech -- to alter the opinions and behaviors of others without using physical force, or threats thereof.

See, historically that rarely leads to good results. Yes, even if it's you, and your grand ideas behind the gun. Surprisingly.
 
Beerina said:
Leave it alone. It's best killed by a generation or two growing up seeing it mocked and useless and having it explained, in a world where people cannot be silenced by the state, how oppressive it is.

That's why we have freedom of speech -- to alter the opinions and behaviors of others without using physical force, or threats thereof.

See, historically that rarely leads to good results. Yes, even if it's you, and your grand ideas behind the gun. Surprisingly.
Click to expand...

OMG I agree with Beerina ::waits for additional signs of the apocalypse:::jaw-dropp
 
Even if she claims to be wearing it out of her own free will, is there any merit to claims that she is just "brainwashed" into accepting such a dehumanizing wardrobe?
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Culture has definitively a huge influence, even to impose degrading action on one part of the people belonging to it. This even goes to surgically remove part of a female or male baby for no medical reason whatsoever, jsut cultural one. Nobody force the parents to do that, they do it on their own will. So it isn't a stretch to see women accepting a degrading clothing as perfectly normal and acceptable.

But by now I say, live and let live. If they want to wear their burka or hijab, feel free to do it. The exception is : school. If this disturb school activity, particularly in countries where school is secular , then bad luck.
 
What if it is a parent requiring a young teen girl to wear it?

My feeling is we should define how far a parent can go in raising a child in a cult. When should we rescue adults from cults?

This is a cult, defined as isolating someone from society in order to maintain control over their behavior. It isn't just the clothing. These women have strict 'rules' about communicating with men, and about leaving the house alone. I think it's rare you are going to find very many women wearing one of these costumes who isn't also unhealthily dominated by the men in her life, be it a husband or a father, or sometimes a brother.

I wonder how much myth there is to the Muslim woman freely choosing this clothing. We are so convinced it's no different from wearing a cross or choosing a life as a nun which is not based on men dominating women from childhood. It isn't similar except maybe in the rarest of cases.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
What if it is a parent requiring a young teen girl to wear it?

My feeling is we should define how far a parent can go in raising a child in a cult. When should we rescue adults from cults?

This is a cult, defined as isolating someone from society in order to maintain control over their behavior. It isn't just the clothing. These women have strict 'rules' about communicating with men, and about leaving the house alone. I think it's rare you are going to find very many women wearing one of these costumes who isn't also unhealthily dominated by the men in her life, be it a husband or a father, or sometimes a brother.

I wonder how much myth there is to the Muslim woman freely choosing this clothing. We are so convinced it's no different from wearing a cross or choosing a life as a nun which is not based on men dominating women from childhood. It isn't similar except maybe in the rarest of cases.
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I thought that at least in some western countries that a significant percentage of those who wear this are converts.
 
krazyKemist said:
It involves a thing called "cultural défense" which can be used as a sort of insanity plea - but I've found out it's not unique to Canada, it's also used in the ... NZ it seems.

Unfortunately I could not find any link to actual cases - I had just heard of its use in a recent honor killing case in Toronto (in the news).
Click to expand...

Such a defense has never been used in NZ. You must have misheard.
 
kerikiwi said:
Such a defense has never been used in NZ. You must have misheard.
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Even involving Maori? It's a serious question because there have been many occasions where aborigines have been given much lighter sentences where their crimes have been considered not as serious within their culture. Slight derail, sorry.
 
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