"Intelligence is Self Teaching" A paranormal experience into A.I and Intelligence.

[Trent Wray]

An Awakening

"He who knows not and knows not he knows not, He is a fool - Shun him. He who knows not and knows he knows not, He is simple - Teach him. He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - Awaken him. He who knows and knows that he knows, He is wise - Follow him" ~ Bruce Lee

And he who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise to not let others know that he knows. Thus, they will follow him freely and come and go as they wish, without knowing that they are doing it. ----- Bruce LeRoy

 

[Ferguson]

I have met many people (and include myself among them) who have had "great realizations" while on a hallucinogenic or psychoactive drugs. I even had a very religious friend who - his first time smoking weed - stood up wide eyed and said, "It's all a ridiculous lie. The Bible. It doesn't make any sense."
Also friends I've met who used drugs for only a couple months, then quit because they've "learned all it had to teach me."

However, these drugs aren't "unlocking the mysteries of the universe" or "communicating with spirits." They do, however, often stimulate the creative and introspective parts of the brain while "turning off" the inhibitive part. This means subconscious thoughts and perspectives you normally would not consider, can come to the forefront. My formerly religious friend, was always able to see the inconsistencies of his beliefs, but the drug put him in a state of mind where he was able to question and inspect his own beliefs without the inhibitions he'd built up over 20 years of faith.

The experience is as real as reality to the user, but is not physically real. On substances, I have traveled to deserts, felt the sweltering sun on my face, I've seen all humanity connected as a single pulsing hypersphere living outside of time. If I were culturally led to believe I was speaking to spirits, it would be easy to believe. But drugs affect brain chemistry, a hallucination is like a waking dream. Like a dream, you can gain great insight about yourself and the world. You can also see a lot of crazy stuff. That doesn't make the dreams real in a physical sense. Though, at the time the desert was as real as the computer in front of me - to sight, touch, and smell - some time later it was gone, and I was again in the snow covered capital I call home, surrounded by friends wondering why I'd stripped off my clothes, but sober I still see the connectedness of humanity, but through the emergent properties like information sharing, technology, liberalism, etc. that has caused humanity to grow enormously from the 1-in-3-homicide-tribal-warfare to the 1-in-1000000-homicide-western-society of today. The humanity "shape" I saw is not real, but the "lesson" it pulled from my subconscious is.

That said, and not to sound disparaging but how is "Intelligence is self teaching" profound? I was under the impression that that was the definition...

Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: in·tel·li·gence
Pronunciation: \in-ˈte-lə-jən(t)s\
Function: noun
1 a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations ...

Sounds like the first definition of intelligence. Isn't the goal of most AI learning, or "self-teaching" already? I don't see anything new there....

 

[WWHP]

fair enough

Not looking for holy text, just using that as an example.

And I probably never would do it. I have an irrational fear and distrust of medicinal substances in general (even though I work in the healthcare industry, go figure), especially medicines causing altered mental states (even well known pharmaceuticals). I do not doubt the usefullness of them, but it's just a personal distrust I have. Also, I have high blood pressure and would probably not take the risk of experiencing a possible hypertensive urgency resulting from the ayahuasca. It's just not worth the risk to me. But I would watch someone else do it. LOL

And I wasn't saying you were, just trying to get to the point, that's all. Cheers

Cheers back to you Trent! thank you for all of your questions and inquery. If your curious about more, but don't want to try it, you may find Terence Mckenna a real hoot. Here is a link to his talks - if you want to know if anything interesting has ever been brought back to share with the rest of us from these experiences, he is the man you want to hear.

http://www.lancerules.com/terence/

take care and I'll see ya in the spirit world ;-)

 

[WWHP]

An Awakening

"He who knows not and knows not he knows not, He is a fool - Shun him. He who knows not and knows he knows not, He is simple - Teach him. He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - Awaken him. He who knows and knows that he knows, He is wise - Follow him" ~ Bruce Lee

hmm, some would say that the simple man is more the wiser

 

[PixyMisa]

The entire universe is permeated with a strong odor of turpentine.

 

[WWHP]

I have met many people (and include myself among them) who have had "great realizations" while on a hallucinogenic or psychoactive drugs. I even had a very religious friend who - his first time smoking weed - stood up wide eyed and said, "It's all a ridiculous lie. The Bible. It doesn't make any sense."
Also friends I've met who used drugs for only a couple months, then quit because they've "learned all it had to teach me."

sure, we've all been to college

However, these drugs aren't "unlocking the mysteries of the universe" or "communicating with spirits."

I would like to stop you there because your making a claim that, to make, involves having a rather comprehensive understanding not only of consciousness, which was, is, and will continue to be science's 'hard problem', in addition to comprehensive understanding of neuro-pharmacology.

So I just want to ask: How did you come to that conclusion? Is that a personal belief of yours, or have you done the math so to speak?

They do, however, often stimulate the creative and introspective parts of the brain while "turning off" the inhibitive part.

I am not talking about drugs per se, I am talking about the DMT molecule proper and ayahuasca in particular. DMT does not turn anything off, it is already occurring in our brains and all ayahuasca does is spike our own levels.

So I just want to keep it on topic, I'm not here trying to be Tim Leary or get people to Turn on, Tune in, and Drop out, that sort of thing.

This means subconscious thoughts and perspectives you normally would not consider, can come to the forefront. My formerly religious friend, was always able to see the inconsistencies of his beliefs, but the drug put him in a state of mind where he was able to question and inspect his own beliefs without the inhibitions he'd built up over 20 years of faith.

can't wait for some of the people here to have the same realization

The experience is as real as reality to the user, but is not physically real. On substances, I have traveled to deserts, felt the sweltering sun on my face, I've seen all humanity connected as a single pulsing hypersphere living outside of time. If I were culturally led to believe I was speaking to spirits, it would be easy to believe. But drugs affect brain chemistry, a hallucination is like a waking dream. Like a dream, you can gain great insight about yourself and the world. You can also see a lot of crazy stuff. That doesn't make the dreams real in a physical sense.

yes I agree it does not make them real in any physical sense, but that does not solve the problem or remove the mystery. The are real in a subjective sense, just like our dreams, and more immediately, our ideas. Ideas are compact and compressed 'mystical' experiences that convey conceptual or linguistic information, yet they somehow do not exist in any physical sense either.

Subjective reality exists, it just doesn't exist in the same sense Objective reality does. It's clearly a lot more subtle than material reality. It may be dimensional, it may be dark matter, it may be morphic resonance, or it may not even exist at all and may be pure illusion. But if a pure illusion, one we all share in common, and thus, have a component of objective reality in it.

So saying it's not real in any physical sense, well I agree of course, but that doesnt solve the mystery, it confounds it to an area that is more than elusive to science than dark matter.

That said, and not to sound disparaging but how is "Intelligence is self teaching" profound? I was under the impression that that was the definition...



Sounds like the first definition of intelligence. Isn't the goal of most AI learning, or "self-teaching" already? I don't see anything new there....

Did you read the article? I thought the same thing, yet it's a completely original proposition. Read the article and get back to me if you're interested in deeper exploration on the theme. If it's too much of a request or a bit boring, no worries friend won't hold you to it

 

[WWHP]

The entire universe is permeated with a strong odor of turpentine.

still boring the hell out of me.

 

[PixyMisa]

still boring the hell out of me.

Google it. Therein lies a tale.

 

[WWHP]

Google it. Therein lies a tale.

then post it on your blog - still bored here

 

[PixyMisa]

I would like to stop you there because your making a claim that, to make, involves having a rather comprehensive understanding not only of consciousness, which was, is, and will continue to be science's 'hard problem', in addition to comprehensive understanding of neuro-pharmacology.

No, he's talking middle-school science and pre-school common sense.

Also, the hard-problem is a fairy tale.

So I just want to ask: How did you come to that conclusion? Is that a personal belief of yours, or have you done the math so to speak?

We've done the math. Both figuratively and literally.

As Ferguson noted, these drugs aren't "unlocking the mysteries of the universe" or "communicating with spirits." They're messing with the operation of your brain.

I am not talking about drugs per se

Yes you are.

Points, though, for getting per se right.

I am talking about the DMT molecule proper and ayahuasca in particular.

DMT is a drug. Opioids also occur naturally in plants and in the human body. Opioids are drugs.

DMT does not turn anything off, it is already occurring in our brains and all ayahuasca does is spike our own levels.

This is basically true. It's a hallucinogen, not a sedative.

It's still a drug, and it still messes up your brain chemistry, and it's still not "unlocking the mysteries of the universe" or "communicating with spirits."

can't wait for some of the people here to have the same realization

What realisation? That messing up your brain chemistry does not promote clarity of thought?

yes I agree it does not make them real in any physical sense

If they're not real in any physical sense, then they're not real.

but that does not solve the problem or remove the mystery.

What problem? What mystery?

The are real in a subjective sense, just like our dreams, and more immediately, our ideas.

What do you mean, "real in a subjective sense"? The only thing I can figure this to mean is "not real".

Ideas are compact and compressed 'mystical' experiences that convey conceptual or linguistic information, yet they somehow do not exist in any physical sense either.

Of course they exist in a physical sense. They are information, and information is physical.

Subjective reality exists, it just doesn't exist in the same sense Objective reality does.

So what you mean is, it's not real?

It's clearly a lot more subtle than material reality.

So what you mean is, it's not real?

It may be dimensional

Dimensional? Dimensional?! Do you even know what the word means?

it may be dark matter

Dark matter? How can it be dark matter?

it may be morphic resonance

There you go; morphic resonance doesn't exist either.

or it may not even exist at all

Yep.

and may be pure illusion.

Now you're getting warm.

But if a pure illusion, one we all share in common and thus, have a component of objective reality in it.

Subjective experience is a subset of, and a perspective on, objective reality. No more, no less. There is no such thing as subjective reality.

So saying it's not real in any physical sense, well I agree of course, but that doesnt solve the mystery, it confounds it to an area that is more than elusive to science than dark matter.

What mystery?

You addle your brain with psychoactive drugs, you end up with an addled brain.

 

[PixyMisa]

then post it on your blog - still bored here

I'm busy talking about Magical Ferret Fluffical Yuuno on my blog.

 

[rorylee]

And he who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise to not let others know that he knows. Thus, they will follow him freely and come and go as they wish, without knowing that they are doing it. ----- Bruce LeRoy

"Don't think. FEEL. It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory" ~ Bruce Lee, Enter The Dragon

 

[PixyMisa]

"Don't think. FEEL. It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory" ~ Bruce Lee, Enter The Dragon

So she went into the garden to cut a cabbage-leaf to make an apple-pie; and at the same time a great she-bear, coming down the street, pops its head into the shop. What! no soap? So he died, and she very imprudently married the Barber: and there were present the Picninnies, and the Joblillies, and the Garyulies, and the great Panjandrum himself, with the little round button at top; and they all fell to playing the game of catch-as-catch-can, till the gunpowder ran out at the heels of their boots.
-- Samuel "Bruce" Foote

 

[Mashuna]

"Don't think. FEEL. It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory" ~ Bruce Lee, Enter The Dragon

So she went into the garden to cut a cabbage-leaf to make an apple-pie; and at the same time a great she-bear, coming down the street, pops its head into the shop. What! no soap? So he died, and she very imprudently married the Barber: and there were present the Picninnies, and the Joblillies, and the Garyulies, and the great Panjandrum himself, with the little round button at top; and they all fell to playing the game of catch-as-catch-can, till the gunpowder ran out at the heels of their boots.
-- Samuel "Bruce" Foote

I'd like the Chicken Tikka Massala, Pilau Rice, a Chapati and a pint of Tiger beer please.
-- Richard Fenyman

 

[Sunsneezer]

[...]the Western reductionist paradigm pre-supposes some pretty extraordinary claims about consciousness without having any understanding of it.

The mind is pretty extraordinary and it is rather reductionist to say we don't have any understanding of it. And it is also reductionist to assume that your own temporarily warped consciousness can't be the only source of your hallucinations, especially after mentioning how little we know about it.
Since my first answer to your OP, all I've been saying that drug experiences can be useful, but that they are also potentially harmful. But surely not "paranormal" or involving a "spirit" apart your own and those of people around you. The only plant spirit in this case might be the delusions that took root into your mind.
But who am I to tell if this belief can't also be useful for you?

 

[rorylee]

So she went into the garden to cut a cabbage-leaf to make an apple-pie; and at the same time a great she-bear, coming down the street, pops its head into the shop. What! no soap? So he died, and she very imprudently married the Barber: and there were present the Picninnies, and the Joblillies, and the Garyulies, and the great Panjandrum himself, with the little round button at top; and they all fell to playing the game of catch-as-catch-can, till the gunpowder ran out at the heels of their boots.
-- Samuel "Bruce" Foote

Just leads me back to "He who knows not and knows not he knows not, He is a fool - Shun him. He who knows not and knows he knows not, He is simple - Teach him. He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - Awaken him. He who knows and knows that he knows, He is wise - Follow him" ~ Bruce Lee

 

[rorylee]

The mind is pretty extraordinary and it is rather reductionist to say we don't have any understanding of it. And it is also reductionist to assume that your own temporarily warped consciousness can't be the only source of your hallucinations, especially after mentioning how little we know about it.

Pineal gland.

 

[Paul2]

I am perplexed by the experience, however,

I don't see any need for being perplexed about people who report that they've heard voices in their heads. What is perplexing about this? Butsee below.

it is reasonable to their pov to make the claim that they exist.

This statement means nothing. The whole point of "reason" and determining if something exists is that it is independent of any one person's particular pov.

I do say that regardless of the truth value of their existence, you can have an experience where an 'other' is speaking with in a non physical form.

I presume the quotes around "other" indicate that it is not necessarily a real thing beyond voices in one's head.

So please do not ask me to argue a case for their existence. I am arguing at most simply a case for open minded study on the matter for those interested.

I still don't see anything that would indicate any phenomenon of interest yet. A wide range of people hear voices in their heads for various reasons, none of which indicate the voices come from real beings. What's in this case that indicates otherwise?

In the Amazon, we find DMT occurring in Ayahuasca, and it is consistent amongst virtually all tribes who partake in ayahuasca that their knowledge of the plant world comes from the ayahuasca. She is a 'teacher' and she instructs them on how to prepare concoctions from various plants to create medicines, poisons, or even 'spells'.

I suspect that the only verification that this has happened is the reports of the people who have taken the drug, which is not such good verification. That is, how are we sure that the people never used that plant before as opposed to having used the plant before but, through semi-religious fervor or ideology, fail to report that situation accurately.

If the situation as reported actually happened as reported, we might have something very interesting, but first you have to verify that things happened as they were reported. The problem is that, I suspect, all you have is a report, and if you want to know about the suspicions of just having a report that implies something fantastic and out of this world, just go over the ot UFO thread with Rramjet.

I don't know where you're going with your last comment on Occam's Razor. You say it's not infallible, but it's not the sort of thing that is supposed to be used such that it is infallible or not. Recall that it merely instructs us to "not multiply entities."

 

[WWHP]

No, he's talking middle-school science and pre-school common sense.

Also, the hard-problem is a fairy tale.


We've done the math. Both figuratively and literally.

As Ferguson noted, these drugs aren't "unlocking the mysteries of the universe" or "communicating with spirits." They're messing with the operation of your brain.


Yes you are.

Points, though, for getting per se right.


DMT is a drug. Opioids also occur naturally in plants and in the human body. Opioids are drugs.


This is basically true. It's a hallucinogen, not a sedative.

It's still a drug, and it still messes up your brain chemistry, and it's still not "unlocking the mysteries of the universe" or "communicating with spirits."


What realisation? That messing up your brain chemistry does not promote clarity of thought?


If they're not real in any physical sense, then they're not real.


What problem? What mystery?


What do you mean, "real in a subjective sense"? The only thing I can figure this to mean is "not real".


Of course they exist in a physical sense. They are information, and information is physical.


So what you mean is, it's not real?


So what you mean is, it's not real?


Dimensional? Dimensional?! Do you even know what the word means?


Dark matter? How can it be dark matter?


There you go; morphic resonance doesn't exist either.


Yep.


Now you're getting warm.


Subjective experience is a subset of, and a perspective on, objective reality. No more, no less. There is no such thing as subjective reality.


What mystery?

You addle your brain with psychoactive drugs, you end up with an addled brain.

wow! you're still boring. amazing. surely you have some big foot supporters to go bother with your rubbish?

 

[WWHP]

The mind is pretty extraordinary and it is rather reductionist to say we don't have any understanding of it. And it is also reductionist to assume that your own temporarily warped consciousness can't be the only source of your hallucinations, especially after mentioning how little we know about it.

No, it's pretty standard fair to admit that consciousness is science's hard problem. Sure, saying we know nothing about it may be a little extreme, but we hardly understand it in any meaningful way, and reductionism is consistently trying to reduce it back to the brain.

Since my first answer to your OP, all I've been saying that drug experiences can be useful, but that they are also potentially harmful.

sure, but that's irrelevant to this post and not applicable to ayahuasca or DMT.

But surely not "paranormal" or involving a "spirit" apart your own and those of people around you. The only plant spirit in this case might be the delusions that took root into your mind.
But who am I to tell if this belief can't also be useful for you?

Your missing my point. Not making claims to their objective existence, I said a paranormal 'experience', not a paranormal reality. Never have I said spirits exist in a material sense, and indeed have stated that they may be nothing more than our ideas.

The message here is that DMT and ayahuasca deliver what can be considered paranormal experiences, and to cultures having a history of paranormal experience, it is reasonable to their POV to claim spirits exist.

Please, I have stated that, clarified that over and over. Just move on to another thread if you can't make the distinction, it's kind of annoying having to repeat it.