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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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It could be that Dr. Waterbury is misinformed and negative controls were done and no other samples relating to the case were anywhere near the machine.

It still remains that the lab was not the right kind and not prepped for LCN testing. And it had never been done in Italy. So it was an unusual action. However, I do fully recognize that is a first time for everything. It needs to be in the right (lab and possibly training to perform it?) conditions though. So I am not sure if it was from the material on the knife or the equipment.

There is another issue of interpretation and the presence of a conflict of interest. Stefanoni applied subjective interpretation when the amplification/LCN process started and knew "what to look for" in deciphering the pattern from noise. So I am not sure that it was Meredith's DNA.
 
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It still remains that the lab was not the right kind and not prepped for LCN testing.
What information do you have about the lab procedures? I have almost nothing. My understanding, such as it is, is that information on procedures are one of things that the defence complained they didn't have in October. If that's the case almost nobody knows to what extend the lab was prepared, or not, to handle LCN testing.

And it had never been done in Italy. So it was an unusual action. However, I do fully recognize that is a first time for everything. It needs to be in the right (lab and possibly training to perform it?) conditions though. So I am not sure if it was from the material on the knife or the equipment.
Again, I think we need to be certain about facts like the controls and what other samples were tested in the machine. Some people seem to have access to at least some of this information and we can take their word for it, or not. If Dr Waterbury is correct, this is certainly a huge scandal. Are his sources reliable? Right now I don't know. I'm going to wait for a translation of the Motivation report before I begin trying to take all this in.


There is another issue of interpretation and the presence of a conflict of interest. Stefanoni applied subjective interpretation when the amplification/LCN process started and knew "what to look for" in deciphering the pattern from noise. So I am not sure that it was Meredith's DNA.
Have you seen the graph of the LCN result over at PMF? It looks pretty convincing to the layman. It's not as if there is a huge mass of noise that she has picked and chosen her way through.
 
Is there someone you can ask whom you trust to confirm?
I've asked Michael over at PMF with the following response:

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=36990#p36990

In answer to your question though, ultimately no. What Michael says could be true, as could what Dr Waterbury says. Michael at least routinely posts what primary sources he has, but who knows.

The problem is that we are in a position where one or other side is lying (not necessarily Michael or Dr Waterbury, but their trusted sources for sure). Now one side says "we have secret information that we can't show you that proves it's those other guys that are lying". What can one do with information like that?
 
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Have you seen the graph of the LCN result over at PMF? It looks pretty convincing to the layman. It's not as if there is a huge mass of noise that she has picked and chosen her way through.

Was that the result after the process? I'll check it out and the background info with it. Thanks...........
 
For me this has been a really great discussion and very helpful. I just wanted to say thank you.

I'm still hoping to write more though...! It's just helpful to discuss with people who have different opinions and perspectives. One thing that helps is to find out exactly where we disagree, so that it can be researched further at those points, etc...
 
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I just had an interesting little exchange with Dr Mark Waterbury over at Science Spheres. He says that he has access to all the information that the defence have. There is no information about negative controls in that data. So, either he is being lied to, or no controls were done. I'm not sure what to make of this, but thought it was worth sharing.


I think what Mark is saying is that the crossover from standard to LCN testing was seamless. Stefanoni continued to process and started amplifying without stopping to adjust testing conditions in what was then a different kind of testing - LCN testing - that has different requirements.
 
Thanks for sharing. That was my understanding, that negative controls were not performed.

It's more likely that Waterbury doesn't know and wasn't supplied with any information that would lead him to a science-based conclusion.
 
It's more likely that Waterbury doesn't know and wasn't supplied with any information that would lead him to a science-based conclusion.



What about this that I wrote in the other comment?

"I think what Mark is saying is that the crossover from standard to LCN testing was seamless. Stefanoni continued to process and started amplifying without stopping to adjust testing conditions in what was then a different kind of testing - LCN testing - that has different requirements."
 
What about this that I wrote in the other comment?

"I think what Mark is saying is that the crossover from standard to LCN testing was seamless. Stefanoni continued to process and started amplifying without stopping to adjust testing conditions in what was then a different kind of testing - LCN testing - that has different requirements."

I'd still go with the trained scientist working in her field of expertise.
 
I'd still go with the trained scientist working in her field of expertise.

So you're saying he doesn't know what he is talking about? How do you know? He does consult with geneticists that refine his work. He does also have a background in materials science and studied Chemistry in college. He speaks from grounded knowledge, not fanciful wishful concoction. Maybe a good thing to do would be to present his work to a biologist and/or geneticist for feedback. I do know of one person in that category that looks into these things but I need to ask her for her specific qualifications.

I just don't think it is good to dismiss... Statements and claims should be checked out. Afterall, it is a scientist who is also interested in the case, and has made an argument, so perhaps he actually is someone to talk to.
 
The person has no name, wasn't there, and allegedly heard from someone who was there, who is unnamed. That's not reliable information. I don't accept or deny it other than to say only a fool would consider it reliable at all. Maybe no one is coming forward to say it's untrue because it hasn't been reported anywhere reliable but in a comment section or a discussion board. I'm guessing they have better things to do than argue over third hand hearsay within hearsay within hearsay (yes three times) that wasn't even admitted at court. So maybe you should relook up the word "arbitrary".

It wasn't you but Dan O (I think) who suggested on this thread that we stop being "idiot-like jurors" and work with some of the information we have at hand.

This incident, the party citation, the Foxy Knoxy moniker, and other issues not specified at her trial, are still instrumental in the perception of Amanda Knox, the individual. (Actually, the party citation was introduced at her trial but no matter).

There are rumours and hearsay that have stalked AK throughout these proceedings. You can ignore them if you wish because they have no bearing on her conviction. But you cannot label people fools should they choose to take them with more than a grain of salt.

The personal items don't stop there, either. Her stepfather publicly called both AK and Deanna "*********" and bragged about drinking with them (or at least with Amanda). That doesn't affect her conviction either. But the picture they paint is more than that of a child from a broken home. If it weren't for her murdering her roommate in Italy, I'd feel very sorry for this individual.

Speaking of rumours, HB, what do you make of this Alessi stuff? Isn't it "amazing" that this "revelation" came out just a day after the report did?
 
So you're saying he doesn't know what he is talking about? How do you know? He does consult with geneticists that refine his work. He does also have a background in materials science and studied Chemistry in college. He speaks from grounded knowledge, not fanciful wishful concoction. Maybe a good thing to do would be to present his work to a biologist and/or geneticist for feedback. I do know of one person in that category that looks into these things but I need to ask her for her specific qualifications.

I just don't think it is good to dismiss... Statements and claims should be checked out. Afterall, it is a scientist who is also interested in the case, and has made an argument, so perhaps he actually is someone to talk to.

He certainly does make a number of claims. In fact, he appears to be the source for a lot of them. This is worrisome for someone claiming to be objective.

Because he is not working within his field of expertise, we have to take his conclusions in the whimsical fashion they were arrived at.
 
It wasn't you but Dan O (I think) who suggested on this thread that we stop being "idiot-like jurors" and work with some of the information we have at hand.

This incident, the party citation, the Foxy Knoxy moniker, and other issues not specified at her trial, are still instrumental in the perception of Amanda Knox, the individual. (Actually, the party citation was introduced at her trial but no matter).

There are rumours and hearsay that have stalked AK throughout these proceedings. You can ignore them if you wish because they have no bearing on her conviction. But you cannot label people fools should they choose to take them with more than a grain of salt.

The personal items don't stop there, either. Her stepfather publicly called both AK and Deanna "*********" and bragged about drinking with them (or at least with Amanda). That doesn't affect her conviction either. But the picture they paint is more than that of a child from a broken home. If it weren't for her murdering her roommate in Italy, I'd feel very sorry for this individual.

Speaking of rumours, HB, what do you make of this Alessi stuff? Isn't it "amazing" that this "revelation" came out just a day after the report did?

I have no doubt the timing of announcing the Alessi claim is tactical if that what you're asking, just as I think it is obvious that the defamation suits and their timing were tactical as well. Do you not think Mignini's suits were not cleverly timed to coincide with important events in the trial? It seems that this happens on both sides. I don't really feel like listing all the coincidental things, but I think you are probably aware at this point.

I actually don't put much stock in the whole ordeal with Rudy's cellmate unless there are further developments. I'm not going to go back and forth on it because it hasn't gone anywhere yet.

I look at the noise ticket and just laugh. It was in municipal court for one (which only deals with city ordinance violations), which shows how utterly nonimportant the event probably was. You want to take a stupid noise violation with more than a grain of salt, be my guest. Here is the actual text:

" In the city of Seattle

I was on uniformed patrol in the marked unit as 3U5. At approximately 0028 hours, I responded to the report of a loud party in the listed location. The complainant relayed to dispatch that participants from the party were throwing rocks at his house and at passing cars. The complainant requested officer not contact him. Upon arrival, I noted loud amplified music coming from the listed address. The music could be heard from a distance greater than 75 ft from the source. I also noted several rocks in the street. I did not locate any damage at that time. I contacted a party participant and had them retrieve a resident.

S1/Knox contacted me (in front of the house). She stated that she was one of the current residents. She stated that she was the one who was hosting the party (as she was moving out). She stated that she was not aware of any rock throwers at the gathering.

I issued S1/Knox this infraction for the noise violation and a warning for the rock throwing. I explained how dangerous and juvenile that action was.

See Cad event 264012 for further.

No further action taken at this time."

If you can read anything into that, then you obviously don't demand much to draw negative inferences. There were "rocks" in the street. OMG, someone call in the national guard, this woman is a danger to society.

Young college kids getting drunk? How depraved. I didn't know young people did this.....
 
He certainly does make a number of claims. In fact, he appears to be the source for a lot of them. This is worrisome for someone claiming to be objective.

How do you know he is the source of the claims?


Because he is not working within his field of expertise, we have to take his conclusions in the whimsical fashion they were arrived at.

Am I to take that as an unwillingness to acknowledge that the work has been reviewed by biologists/geneticists? And an unwillingness to present it to someone in those fields who could let you know what they think of his work?
 
...we have to take his conclusions in the whimsical fashion they were arrived at.


We are not limited there. We able to get an opinion on what he wrote.

Whimisical would imply pure fancy. Whereas I doubt that is the calliber of work he presents. The best thing to do would be to analyze his actual work, especially the two PDF documents and the linked documents that weren't written by him, to determine if there is anything to it or not.
 
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If you can read anything into that, then you obviously don't demand much to draw negative inferences. There were "rocks" in the street. OMG, someone call in the national guard, this woman is a danger to society.

Young college kids getting drunk? How depraved. I didn't know young people did this.....

Who said depraved or danger to society? I sure didn't. I said if it weren't for her murdering her roommate then I'd feel sorry for her.

It's unfortunate, but there are a lot of young adults in exactly the same situation as she was.
 
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