Merged al Megrahi and the Lockerbie bombing

I also do not believe he was not killed there. :)

Ahh what becomes the mind after a 12hr, 2 stops and 3 time changes journey home!

I cannot find no sense in that statement!:)

I just got in e-mail contact with Baz like yesterday. Why does weird timing haunt me here? Nevermind... His name is Barry Walker, former police on Hong Kong, no connection to the case. It's a later interest, mostly spurred by the Ian Spiro story which I only barely know about. He is British, or at least lives in the UK, unless the stuff in the e-mail was untrue.

Also he's been invited to discuss here, but has been using a public library to access the net, and this site comes up as blocked, occult. Funny.

Right, so Mr Baz is ex- Honk Kong. I find much of his writing interesting and at times salient, although I find his outright dismissal together with cognizance assertion that Francovich, Goddard, Coleman et al, have posed a dilerberate hoax, unconvincing. Sometimes it would even appear, he doth protest just too much!


As for the sincerely intrepid Mr Matthew Gannon, Gup and Gannon's brother and sister provide, as one might expect, a human touch to another victim on board 103 that evening. It really strikes me sometimes that in the midst of the injustice of the crime, investigation and trial, the stories behind those poor souls who boarded the plane, and indeed living on Sherwood crescent, are crushed behind the brutal aftermaths effect and activities. A look at the passenger list is a grim reminder. 103 continued accruing it's victims long after 1988, even upto 2000, as the story of the Flannigan family is testament to.

Gannon's father in-law, George Twetten, in a curious twist and almost inevitably when we speak abot Lockerbie, was involved at a high level within the agency, and it seems played a role in the clandestine arms to Iran deal. Just down the hall from North and Cannistrano.

"By the summer of 1988, Gadhafi (sic) and Libya seemed to slip off the front pages of the news. The focus of the fight against terrorism moved from Tripoli to Beruit, where American hostages continued to be held. At that point the agency suspected that support for such terrorism came from Iran." (Gup, p188)

As is so often muted, Iran was someone whom the US could not be seen to be outrightly acceptive or even aggressive towards, and while back channels were maneuvering for hostage deals, arming and protecting Iraqi vessels by blasting, erroneously or otherwise, Iranian passengers out of their seats at 30,000ft, results in a political minefield with assured injuries. Gadaffi, unlike Saddam, would not entertain any shadow of US assistance or influence. Gadaffi, unlike Saddam, still strikes a pose across the Northern landscape of Africa and in the ME. Gadaffi could be sponsored by RayBan before 2020! Cannistrano was feeling the African heat too.

"Tensions with that country ran high in the summer of 1988. On the 3rd July, officers aboard the US navy cruiser Vincennes, deployed in the Persian Gulf believed they detected an incoming Iranian F-14 and fired a surface-to-air missile to intercept the aircraft. The target proved not to be a fighter, but a civilian Iranian airliner, an Airbus A300. Flight 655 was blown apart by the missile and disintergrated midair. Two hundred and ninety passengers and crew members were killed. Once again Iran railed against the US as the Great Satan, and once again there was a feeling in the agency of waiting for the second shoe to drop - for Iran to take it's revenge.

Five months after the downing of Iran flight 655, the CIA's Counterterrorism Center needed an Arabic speaking case officer to send to Beruit on temporary duty. A CTC officer had informed Twetten that his son-in-law had been selected for the assigment." (Gup, p188)

Gannon was assigned to be part of the network who had these channels flowing with information into trying to trackdown the location of the hostages held in Beruit. Gup, through Gannon's brother Richard Gannon, confirms Matthew's return travel plans. Originally intending to return on the 22 December, his flight was switched to Wednesday 21st on 103 just prior to his journey home. Gannon's brother states, "even had Matthew known of the Helsinki warning, he would have probably ignored it and travelled anyway. He was that laid back about threats, and had faced far greater while in Beruit." (Gup, p191) He also confirms that Gannon flew from Cyprus to Frankfurt before swtching at Heathrow onto PanAm103. No mention is made at all throughout to Charles McKee, althought in the Maltese Double Cross the PanAm ground crew noted their acknowledgement of each other at Heathrow.

I find it somewhat strange that Baz's outright and intense dismissal of the drugs possibility a 'hoax' citing lack of clear and incontrovertible evidence, while purporting that the timer was brought over by boat from Sweden or Denmark (?), loaded onto 103 through a baggage handler at Heathrow using a Khreesat (style) timer, and Gannon was not on the flight, presumably then alive and well. Displaying not only lack of this same form of evidence he calls for, but perhaps even more spurious given what is offered from various sources about a possible and probable drug sting operation, but also seemingly introducing his very own misdirectives regarding Gannon's death - or not? He even seems unwilling to entertain the possibilty that it may provide the clue as to why, not that Libya was singled out as the instigators of the attack on 103, but why investigators were clearly led off the paths of Frankfurt and Heathrow as the most obvious points of introduction for the bomb bag. One where records were almost wholly concealed and the other where security breaches only hours before the bombing were surpressed for over 12 years.
 
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I'm of your mind as regards Baz. I also think the bomb was most probably introduced at Heathrow, and was in the Bedford suitcase, which means that Aviv was mistaken, and those who follow his theory - Coleman, Francovich et al. - are also barking up the wrong tree. However, it's a big jump from that so assert that they knew this to be the case but fabricated evidence to support their theory anyway. Which is what Baz vehemently insists they did.

He seems to have had some correspondence with Francovich before his death, but if he waded in accusing him of outright fraud I wouldn't be surprised if it was unproductive! Francovich uses reconstructions of what he believes happened. This is a standard film-maker technique. He may have been over-enthusiastic. He may have been duped by Jafaar's family. However, to insist that these reconstructions are "fraudulent" simply because you think they are inaccurate is completely unfair.

Some of the film doesn't stand up terribly well. Innes Graham wittering on about helicopters is just silly. Of course there were a lot of helicopters flying around, you loun, how do you think they got the bodies off those hills? And do you really think you saw someone in a helicopter with a rifle, or does the term "telephoto lens" maybe ring a bell? But we can make up our own minds about the eyewitness interviews, it doesn't make it fraudulent.

I agree that the existence of the controlled drugs deliveries and possibly the suspicion that an associated bag switch at Frankfurt had enabled the bomb to get on board might explain a great deal of what happened at that airport, without that actually having happened. But Baz vehemently dismisses any talk of such a thing. You can't even get any real sense out of him on the subject. He just starts railing about fraud and fabrication, end of story. (Much the same way that Patrick Haseldine does nothing but assert that the SA apartheid regime did it, on even slimmer grounds.) And in fact all his fury seems to have been based on the 90-minute edited version of The Maltese Double Cross that was shown on C4 (which I haven't seen), not the full 2 hour 35 minute film.

I think The Maltese Double Cross is the only documentary that gives any sort of sense of the grief and the tragedy of it all. Some of it has longeurs, but when the sound-track plays McCrimmon's Lament while the picture changes from Middle Eastern scenes to the hills of southern Scotland, it sends a few shivers up my spine. Little "irrelevancies" like the Lockerbie townspeople turning out to honour the departing coffins add a lot to the film.

I also think Coleman can be useful, even though it's semi-fiction. He seems to have done quite a lot of research, although his theory that what happened to him was a result of him knowing Jafaar may well be completely off the mark. As the book was written so early, he highlights quite a few things that have been overlooked since, such as the court proceedings against Pan Am and the FAI.

I think if Baz wants to be taken seriously about the Gothenburg ferry or anything else, he has to start producing some evidence. Otherwise what he thinks has no more currency than what I think.

Rolfe.
 
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While the Chilcot Inquiry in the UK tiptoes it's way around the real issues surrounding the evidence presented, the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq, and Tony Blair for a man finding profound strength from his faith, yet lacking all contrition, Jim Swire provides yet another succinct and perceptive view.

From Professor Black's 'Lockerbiecase Blogspot' today, 'Some reflections following Tony Blair's appearence at the Iraq Inquiry'.
 
Damn!

Contrary to public expectations following an announcement in December last year, the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission (SCCRC) will not yet be able to release its 800-page report on the case, and is unlikely to be able to disclose much information in the future.

Without the approval of all the key players in the case, including Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi, the Libyan convicted of the bombing, the Crown Office, Dumfries and Galloway Police and witnesses such as Maltese shopkeeper Toni Gauci, it is unlikely that any of the material could legally be disclosed to the public. Gauci’s evidence was central to Megrahi’s conviction. [....]


I don't know what there might be to find in these documents, but you never know.

Rolfe.
 
Without the approval of all the key players in the case [...] the Crown Office, Dumfries and Galloway Police and witnesses such as Maltese shopkeeper Toni Gauci, it is unlikely that any of the material could legally be disclosed to the public. [....]

Really? Did they have list of "players" made up, with a clear distinction between "key" and "non-key"? Does this mean my own re-posting of, say, Gauci's testimony from the trial is illegal unless I hunt him down in Australia and ask his approval?
”Q Do you remember what the weather was like when the man came to the shop?
A When he came by the first time, it wasn't raining, but then it started dripping. Not very -- it was not raining heavily. It was simply -- it was simply dripping, but as a matter of fact he did take an umbrella, didn't he? He bought an umbrella.” [Day 31, P 4741]

“Q … on the 1st of September of 1989 your memory was that the man purchased the umbrella, he didn't leave it for you to bundle up with the other things he had bought in the shop, but he left with the umbrella and put it up outside the door of the shop because it was raining?
A Exactly.” [p 4815]

"A It wasn't raining. It wasn't raining. It was just drizzling.
Q We'll come to --
A I can't remember the dates. I don't want to say -- I don't want to give out dates if I am not that sure, sir.
Q Indeed. What I am endeavouring to do, Mr. Gauci, with your help, is to illustrate --
A I always thank you, sir. I am here to help you, sir." [p 4816]

"A I don't want to cause confusion. I don't know dates." [p 4820]
 
Oh, and my main point, since it doesn't have dedicated thread, I wanted to mention a new piece I did on Khreesat. I prefer working with narrower, technical aspects - there are just so many unknowable variables with the level of secret agents, intrigue, words and their relation to what actually happened, etc. The main thing I was wondering is if anyone had any critiques of it. I come across a little strong pushing the negligence (or is it?) kind of angle, and since I'm talking about a real, named, Jordanian intelligence agent, I wouldn't want to be so bold if I had read things wrong.

Considering the arrest was Oct 26, his bomb-making work actually began Oct 22, here's Marshman's report on the events of October 24:
“Around 2.00 p.m. Khreesat took a shower. When Khreesat was in the shower, Dalkamoni knocked on the door and said that he was leaving to go to Frankfurt. After getting out of the shower, Khreesat went back to work on the IEDs. At this time he noticed that the fifth device was no longer in the workroom. He did not pay a lot of attention to this, as he was thinking about the upcoming meeting with Abu Elias. Khreesat speculated that Dalkamoni took the fifth device with him, as only Khreesat and Dalkamoni ever went into the room. After working on the IEDs until late that evening, Khreesat went to bed." [Transcripts, Day 72 p 9258]

He was too meet this "Abu Elias" and hand off the bomb(s) so he could handle the getting it on a plane part.

To clarify an issue we had discussed in whichever thread, things have come together for me to say there were five bombs (a sixth is whispered, on what basis I didn't get yet, so I say 5). Four were recovered - the radio in Dalkamouni's car (model Yaesu FT-211RH), two radio tuners (one of which killed Mr. Sonntag and ruined Ettinger) and later a computer monitor. According to Khreesat, the fifth (Toshiba RT-F423, "bronze in colour just like the model in the catalogue” that he was shown) went missing two days before the arrest. Yet as Marshman's report says “Khreesat told the Germans that they should have waited one more day to make the arrests...” Anyway, on the 25th,

Khreesat told his case officer that he had prepared a device and given it to Abu Elias. Khreesat advised that he had assumed that the fifth device went to Abu Elias, as related above." [27 p 9260]

So is it outlandish to conclude:
If this is undercover work, it’s sloppy, and sloppy with bombs is no good. For whatever reason, Khreesat clearly broke the rule against making live bombs, left them lying around amongst known terrorists who wanted to use them, and waited a day before alerting anyone that one of his pieces had disappeared. Khreesat may have been working to help the West, but certainly not with any coordination to ensure a tight net collected all the bombs and runners. The Germans had no idea of his supposed operation, and didn’t even know there were plural devices. Neither Khreesat nor the GID apparently let them know this basic fact, as a note on the way out or at any time until after the Lockerbie bombing. Such negligence could easily lead to a tragedy like that, and to charges of being a triple agent – only playing at playing the PFLP-GC.

?
 
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Really? Did they have list of "players" made up, with a clear distinction between "key" and "non-key"? Does this mean my own re-posting of, say, Gauci's testimony from the trial is illegal unless I hunt him down in Australia and ask his approval?


It's the evidence given to the SCCRC that needs permission to be revealed of course.

I can't tell now if there's really something mega the authorities know and don't want to get out, or if it's just knee-jerk backside-covering and just wanting the whole thing to go away.

Haven't read your Khreesat thing yet, but it's a great topic.

Rolfe.
 
It's the evidence given to the SCCRC that needs permission to be revealed of course.

I can't tell now if there's really something mega the authorities know and don't want to get out, or if it's just knee-jerk backside-covering and just wanting the whole thing to go away.

The new stuff we don't already know, I see. Luckily, they've mentioned a few points (Christmas Lights, overall impression of possible miscarriage, etc.) and Megrahi's controversial papers have their peeks. (Harry Bell's admission re: Dec 7, more to discover). I think we'll be fine without the full papers, as much as they would help.

Haven't read your Khreesat thing yet, but it's a great topic.

Rolfe.

The main points are covered above, really, if you're pressed for time. One confusing thing is the radio model of the bomb recovered from Dalkamouni's car).

Leppard cites: "a black Toshiba Bombeat 453 radio cassette recorder ... 312 grammes of Semtex-H." [p 11]

Trail of the Octopus says, in exact concert:
The BKA had to be content with the bomb it found in Dalkamoni's Ford Taunus -- 312 grams of Semtex-H moulded into the case of a black Toshiba Bombeat 453 radio-cassette recorder fitted with a barometric switch and time delay.

Yet I had put down from the transcripts Yaesu FT-211RH, thinking there was some interesting disconnect. Fail. I just read that passage wrong. Such a radio was seized elsewhere in the raid, but reading closer, it was a Toshiba 453. [day 72, pp 8829-31] So an edit is needed, but otherwise, it's a good piece. One point I'm wondering is how reliable is Khreesat's ID of the fifth (missing) device as a Toshiba RTF423.
 
This is another fascinating line, actually. We hear from Marquise and his colleagues that the reason they went after Libya was "the evidence, stupid". When they started piling up the evidence they had, the Libyan pile was far more impressive than the PFLP-GC one.

Why is it that it seems the other way round to us? Is it because Giaka was a huge weight on the Libya pile, and when he was removed the remainder was pathetic? But then, wasn't it because they were sure Libya did it that they coaxed all these fantasies out of Giaka?

Both sets of evidence are circumstantial. If Jibril did it, we don't know how he got the suitcase into that baggage container. But having said that, we don't know how Megrahi's supposed to have got it on to KM180 either, so we're even stevens on that.

The evidence against Megrahi seems to boil down to
  • The Erac printout suggesting an unaccompanied suitcase came off KM180 (with Megrahi having been there when that plane took off)
  • Gauci's so-called identification of him as the mystery shopper
  • His business dealings with Bollier, who manufactured the MST-13s
  • A cryptic remark on Fhimah's diary about luggage "taggs".
However, we know Gauci was leant on to make that identification. It was certainly not spontaneously offered. The rest of it, frankly, doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

The other possibility is that they had a lot of evidence against Libya, but then managed to frame the wrong Libyan. However, the MST-13 and the Toshiba manual, plus Gauci's apparently spontaneous opinion that the mystery shopper was Libyan, are hardly a smoking gun, even before you start to look at their plausibility.

Set that beside this stonking pile of circumstantial evidence regarding Khreesat and his mates, and how does it balance? Well, you do the maths.

Some of the Scottish police have said they simply couldn't find any evidence to back up the suspicions regarding the PFLP-GC, and so they had to look elsewhere. Certainly, it's far from a complete narrative. There are gaps. I'm not sure it would entirely stand up in court - I mean a normal court, not Camp Zeist.

But it stands up a lot better than the case against Libya/Megrahi.

What I'm trying to decide is, did they really give up the idea of the PFLP-GC for lack of evidence, and turn elsewhere to find more convincing evidence against Libya, or did they look at the totality of the evidence and decide it pointed to Libya much more than to the PFLP-GC - or was the investigation deliberately steered away from the PFLP-GC, not because of lack of evidence, but because of political unacceptability?

Embarrassment over Khreesat's release in October might be at least part of the reason why nobody wanted the PFLP-GC to come to trial.

Rolfe.
 
Sorry guys, been meaning to pop back into some of the discussions here, but just can't get up the steam at any one time to dig in and assess and have anything to add...

I've been running around commenting, generally scaring discussions into silence. The main thing that's spurred MASS interest the last few days and given me live discussions to mess up, is Kaorl Soikora's statement on July 4 of all days that Megrahi could live another decade or two. Or so it's read an repeated with maximum credulity and indignation.

It'snot necc.a CT issue, but related and complex.First that's notreally what he said, and what he said is of little value anyway, IMO.There's no logic to believing megrahi will live 20 years because of an out-of-context sound bite, but people really seem to believe it over here.None are surprised at this scam.It's an oil-money conspiracy, plain as day. He'll live a long time they all know. They seem confused and unsure whether or not the cancer is real.

Anyway, my main thing I'm now confused about is the latest turn - some "disgusted" Senators wrote to ambassador Sheinwald to ask why Sikora's prognosis was accepted and used to free a Terrorist mass murderer. He responded:
Sheinwald said:
However, it is my understanding that the decision to grant Mr Megrahi’s compassionate release was made on the basis of advice from the Director of Health at the Scottish Prison service, who drew on the advice of a number of medical experts. This group did not include Professor Sikora, the individual quoted in recent press speculation on this issue.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/2010/07/brits-deny-docs-libyan-tale.html#ixzz0tM3z3k7r

On that specific point, I wondered if Rolfe or Buncrana or someone else even might know the answer. How did that prognosis come about, on whose dime and time, etc.? How wrong is Sheinwald, and how confused is the media?

Rolfe: You have some insights with this guy, and with medicine. Would you be willing to put together a detailed post on what can be known about the prognosis/release situation? It's something that give me brain freeze every time I try to approach it.
 
Eeek!! Zombie thread! :eye-poppi

There's already a thread discussing this, started by one Caustic Logic I think, but what the hell.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176962

Frankly, Karol Sikora is an idiot. Did you read what I posted about him in the other thread? http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6105068#post6105068

He's clearly operating as a "hired gun" as regards expert witness work. That describes someone who agrees to support the position of the side that is paying him in a legal action. He was obviously doing that with Lisa Norris, and then when it got to the part of that case where the various experts had to sit down together and come to an agreement, he had to admit he was wrong, and backed down.

He's up to some very peculiar stuff on the woo-woo side, as chronicled by the inimitable David Colquhoun. Not necessarily a woo-woo himself, but prepared to support woo, probably for reasons of personal gain or aggrandisment.

So, he's kind of an obvious person for the Libyan authorities to hire when they want an input into the compassionate release negotiations. He's recently on record as saying, in effect, they wanted me to say three months, and when I first looked at the case I thought, no way, that can't be supported, but then when I looked a bit closer I saw it was possible to take that line, so that's what I reported.

Now, he's swung the other way, and is saying well, hell knows, could be ten years could be twenty, bugger me. Which is equally stupid. Sure, it could be 20 years the same way Stephen Hawking has made it to 65 or whatever, but that doesn't mean a prognosis of 2 or 3 years for someone given his diagnosis today wouldn't still be reasonable.

Sikora was on TV here at the time, pontificating his opinions, but I'm not clear how much attention anyone paid to him. Perhaps more relevantly, I read an article last week that said Megrahi's oncologist and urologist weren't consulted. Who knows if that's even true. The prison doctor was consulted, and some other medical authorities, and nobody is saying exactly who.

Why does it matter? If Americans are cross because they think it was all a stitch-up in relation to that BP oil deal (which it wasn't), well, what's the problem? Gadaffi seems to be everybody's new best friend. If the official story is true and Megrahi planted that bomb, he did it because Gadaffi told him to. But somehow it's OK to lionise Gadaffi these days? America is as keen on oil deals as anyone else. America wanted this all sorted out (Megrahi out of the way and Libya in a friendly place) as much as anyone. The rest is just political point-scoring.

The reason it isn't about the oil deal, or not directly, is that the body which had the authority to approve the release couldn't care less about oil deals. In fact, just knowing that the Westminster government wanted Megrahi released because of an oil deal was enough to make them resolve to keep him banged up. However, they also wanted him on the next plane home, so they saved face by refusing to do what Westminster wanted (the prisoner transfer) and went the compassionate release route instead.

Given that anyone who had any influence at all on events wanted Megrahi out of that prison, just who paid whom to provide an agreeable medical report hardly matters.

The sequence of events was that in 2007, the SCCRB gave permission for the second appeal against his conviction. Then followed a long period of wrangling about release of this secret document the defence thought was important evidence, and the most bizarre back-flips being performed by the government to try to prevent its release. The appeal still hadn't come to court in the autumn of 2008, when Megrahi was diagnosed with prostate cancer. Even then, there was press speculation about a compassionate release, but the word was no way, he's nowhere near sick enough. Maybe later.

In the spring of 2009 the appeal came to court, but it was adjourned quite quickly due to the illness of one of the judges. Rather than appoint a substitute, it was decided to adjourn until November 2009, in spite of the appellant being terminally ill. A lot of people were quite cross about this, because it was hoped that some more light might be shed on the enigma that is the Lockerbie bombing.

In July 2009, there was more talk about a compassionate release, and medical reports were being sought and so on. There was general optimism, because it wasn't necessary to abandon the appeal for that to happen. However, there was some sort of undercurrent that the appeal would have to be ditched. It was obvious which way it was going, and when the compassionate release of Ronnie Biggs was announced, everyone knew it was going to happen soon.

Ronnie Biggs is still alive too by the way. It's ridiculous to say, well, he wasn't actually convicted of murder, so it doesn't matter if his prognosis was wrong - it's an exactly parallel case. Biggs doesn't even have cancer. The point is, the Westminster government wanted Megrahi released because of the oil deal, and they realised that the Scottish government was more likely to go the compassionate release route than the prisoner transfer. How much this was actually talked about I don't know, but it's pretty obvious the Westminster justice secretary released Biggs to soften up the ground for MacAskill to release Megrahi.

So, the doctors were split about the prognosis. What would you have done? The guy has cancer. If you decide August is too early, and you're right, you'll only have to go through all this again in a couple of months. And if you still think it's too soon, a couple of months after that, and so on until you finally do release him. Why not just cut to the chase? The more so because if the short prognosis is correct, you could find yourself in the embarrassing position of Megrahi dying in a Scottish jail. This would not be a good thing for UK-Middle East relations, we really don't want that to happen.

So he goes home, and is given another round of chemotherapy, and lives a few months longer than the accepted prognosis.

What's all the fuss about?

Rolfe.
 
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I forgot about that thread... :blush:
It would be the right spot,but in another forum I for one hardly look at. But it's active... But I'm needed elsewhere, where there is no Rolfe or some of the other smart people here.

Anyway... Thanks for the links and info here. I've gotta run to work for a bit, and will catch up with JREF stuff and hopefully have a worthwhile article up tonight.

Quick points:
Now, he's swung the other way, and is saying well, hell knows, could be ten years could be twenty, bugger me. Which is equally stupid.
Boom.It's just hypothetical words from the mouth of a guy no one trust. Unless what he's saying is useful to them. A lot of people find another reason to get angry about Megrahi's release useful.

it's pretty obvious the Westminster justice secretary released Biggs to soften up the ground for MacAskill to release Megrahi.
I've heard that and it makes perfect sense to me. What would be awesome is for someone to pin that down as best we can from the outside, compare standards and application over time to see how much Biggs' case sticks out.

But somehow it's OK to lionise Gadaffi these days?
On the street,definitely not. Not good for votes,etc. Hardly anyone here is aware but faintly that anyone from the U.S. is doing business there. For the people actually doing the deals or working Congress to that effect, well, the post-2003 rapprochement is cited,and yaddayadda, but obviously it's just money that makes it okay.

Oh, and taking a hard line with Gaddafi's past. That's Megrahi.

So, the doctors were split about the prognosis.
I need to find more specifics on that. Which doctors, etc...

The rest, a good overall view. I may cite it.
 
Who cares? Every single party with an interest in this case wanted Megrahi on the next plane home. That includes most of the parties now making a big fuss about how shocking this is. It's all about political posturing, and that's all there is to it.

The Scottish government actually released him. So, if you're anyone else, you can get political capital out of monstering these dreadful people who let this mass murderer go, while still taking full advantage of the political capital gained by the release. This is being done by all the UK political parties, and the USA, even though all these people had a strong interest in the release going ahead and kept real quiet right up until it happened for fear of rocking the boat.

For goodness sake, what does it matter?

Rolfe.
 
9 months aint nothing if some are expecting Scotland to apologise for releasing someone whom everyone with a vested interest actually wanted released, including the US politicians, if it meant that that appeal would be halted.

US Independence Day and IR655
 
Thanks for that Buncrana, it's a very perceptive article.

I work beside someone who was right there in the Straits of Hormuz, pretty much beside the Vincennes, when it happened - he was on the British destroyer the HMS York. His opinion of the attitude of the Americans to what happened it pretty much unprintable.

Of course it was an accident, although an accident caused by carelessness and bad practice. A change from one set of co-ordinates to another gave the Vincennes observers the mistaken impression that the plane was diving when it was in fact ascending after takeoff from Bandar Abbas airport. The lighting in the ship was too dim to allow the crew to read the reference books that might have shown them it wasn't a fighter plane.

The Lockerbie incident was, in contrast, pure deliberate intentional murder. So I can see there's a difference. However, never to have apologised for IA655, giving the captain a medal, and actually declaring that it was Iran's fault anyway because there were fighter planes in the area sometimes, just beggars belief.

Is it possible that if the US had come clean about the Vincennes incident, and issued a full and unreserved apology as well as the compensation, the 270 Lockerbie victims might still be alive?

Rolfe.
 
I'm not sure it adds a great deal, to be honest.

When they heard that something was coming out about Megrahi, BBC Scotland were rarin to go on this on Newsnight Scotland. However, when the specifics came out, they pulled the entire item.

Gadaffi was threatening everyone left right and centre to try to influence Megrahi's release. In other news, rain is still wet.

Rolfe.
 
I'm not sure it adds a great deal, to be honest.

When they heard that something was coming out about Megrahi, BBC Scotland were rarin to go on this on Newsnight Scotland. However, when the specifics came out, they pulled the entire item.

Gadaffi was threatening everyone left right and centre to try to influence Megrahi's release. In other news, rain is still wet.

Rolfe.

Quite.
It's not as if we didn't know that there was pressure.
Doesn't change anything, frankly.
 
Getting picky, it shows up the Westminster and Holyrood Labour parties as a bunch of hypocrites, lambasting the SNP and saying the decision was wrong and disgraceful and they would no way have released him, when in fact they were 100% behind it.

But then we already knew that too.

There's actually no indication the SNP caved directly to the pressure Gadaffi was exerting, either. It all seems to confirm what again was blindingly obvious at the time, which was that the SNP wanted Megrahi on that plane for their own reasons, and Westminster was busy behind the scenes making it as easy as possible for them to do that.

Timing of the compassionate release of Ronnie Biggs, anyone? (Who is also miraculously still alive by the way.)

Rolfe.
 
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